334 réponses à ce sujet

[Thiefy]

Tomb Raider has a female protagonist and sells well. The Resident Evil series has female protagonists along with males and also sells well. ((There's also been fan outcry for the return of Claire and Jill in the main series rather than side story games since neither have been in one since RE3))

On a smaller scale, the Fatal Frame series was also pretty successful and has (mostly) female protagonists (sort of, if you ever play all of the games). You also have the Parasite Eve games as well.

All of those games also feature the ladies on the cover.

Saying a game can't sell well because of a female protagonist is a BS theory and companies know it's a BS theory but choose to use it anyway when they are grasping at straws for why and game does poorly.

[Biotic Sage]

The game cover shouldn't feature a visible Inquisitor, male or female.

The "default" option in game should be reactive to the gender of the user. So if in my XBOX live profile I'm "male," then the default should be "male."

Boom, problem solved. Right? (This is where I look to the BSN to tell me "it's not that easy you idiot!")

[Daerog]

A CG trailer with a female inquisitor? Sounds good.
They could even have the female option placed before the male option in character creation.
Maybe have the Dwarf option be first in the race list.... y'know, to be alphabetical...

Why not?

I personally don't care that much either way, I'll play the game even if they have an elf as the default Inquisitor, as horrible as that sounds...

An elf with power? Madness, I tell ya...

Edit: I agree with those saying the cover should not have the Inquisitor. I think it should have Morrigan or that helmet picture... or something like that.

Modifié par DaerogTheDhampir, 11 septembre 2013 - 06:43 .

[theflyingzamboni]

OLDIRTYBARON wrote...

This would happen if marketing data proved that women were buying and playing more video games than men or, at the very least, more women were buying and playing BioWare games than men. Neither of those statements are true, so the odds of a major marketing push centered around an optional female protagonist are slim-to-a snowball's chance.

I really don't understand how the OP expects BioWare (or more realistically, EA) to put major marketing dollars behind a concept that won't increase sales and, shock of shocks, may actually see a decrease in interest for their title. You have to remember that for all of the brouhaha over the female Shepard trailers and reversible covers, female Shepards only accounted for 18% of all Commander Shepards created. 18%. While definitely a sizable minority of players, it is not a large enough pool of players to consider launching an $10-$20 million dollar ad campaign behind.

Here's the thing. No one really knows that featuring a female character more prominently than a male would result in lower sales there isn't a large enough sample size to draw any statistically meaningful results from. You mention Remember Me as pretty much the only example you can think of of a new IP with a female protagonist, and that's for a good reason. There really aren't many others. Certainly not enough to draw conclusions from.

This argument (as you are not the only one to make it, and many of them are producers) relies on the fallacious belief that a female protagonist will result in lost sales, either from fans leaving because they are upset or new people not buying the game because of it. The former is unlikely to occur beyond those few people with more volume than their numbers justify, and those few sales won't have a significant impact. The latter is, I think, is also unlikely. I believe the suggested risks to be overblown. But again, no one can know that until more publishers actually TAKE that step. Until enough games do that, the idea that female protagonists lose money is an unfalsifiable assumption.

Not everyone in the industry thinks that way, either. In answer to this same question of money and women in games, David Gaider addressed this fallacy (from the first link I posted):

"Is conventional industry wisdom correct?" Gaider asked, referring to the idea that games with women on the cover don't sell. "There's been a lot of discussion about female protagonists, especially putting them on the
box.

"This is not a large number of titles," he said, gesturing to the six games on the slide. "This is over how many years? Are we supposed to accept the opposite, that a game that has a male protagonist and sells well sells
well because it had a male protagonist? What about the ones with male protagonists that don't sell well? Are those for other reasons?

"What would be the bar at which the industry would change its mind about a female protagonist? Do we need a title to sell ten million copies? Is that the bar, at which suddenly they're marketable? Are we requiring the female
protagonist to work harder and sell more in order to prove herself? What kind of bull**** is that?"

I can't make my point better than that.

You are right that it is about money, not directly about patriarchy or sexism, but here's the thing: people in business are not infallible when it comes to deciding what will and won't make money. And their *opinion* on what will and won't make money in this regard is partially informed by patriarchy and sexism. Not an intentional or malicious kind, but the hard-to-notice kind that pervades social perceptions. It's inextricably tied up in that self-fulfilling prophecy bandcandy describes.
I get the feeling that you (and others) are not so much opposed to the possibility as you are resigned to the idea that that possibility can't or won't happen. But things can, have to, and will change one day. They always do. People will be saying that "the state of things" can't change right up until the day they change. Why might now not be that time?

To address another point you made, I don't really "expect" that they'll do it, I just hope they will. And I can hope that because, as I've said, I think the risk is imagined and not real, and it seems to me that some people at BioWare think that too. Yes, ultimately EA will have the decision on marketing, but if the impetus to use Femquisitor is going to come from anywhere, it will be BioWare. EA won't suggest the idea, but they may (MAY) agree to it if BioWare offers the suggestion. Thus why I address this to BioWare, even though they're not at the top of the marketing chain.

I am not suggesting that marketing should emphasize that they are using a female protagonist (I think emphasizing the fact would weaken the effect, actually) but simply use a female model where promotional material would ordinarily use a male model (assuming promotional material even uses the Inquisitor), and as the first face you see in the character creator. It's not like they would be putting extra money into marketing the fact that they are featuring a woman.

Finally, I placed my questions to Mr. Gaider at the end because I would like to know his thoughts, as opposed to simply places more expectations on the folks at BioWare. Naturally I hope to have a little influence on
those thoughts or I wouldn't have posted this, but this topic is not me trying to place potentially difficult/lower priority goals on the team's shoulders.

Modifié par Led Guardian, 11 septembre 2013 - 06:57 .

[Hey]

ok. you have my vote

in general though just a bad ass symbol on the cover would be pretty sweet

Modifié par Festae9, 11 septembre 2013 - 06:57 .

[MiSS Provencale]

i agree +100!!!!!

[theflyingzamboni]

As an aside to OLDIRTYBARON, I think you may have mistaken BasilKarlo for the OP, me. In case that happened, I'm not trying to make a rallying cry, but I am talking about the idea of BioWare making a quiet statement about the importance of challenging the lack of female protagonists in the game industry. So yes, I am making a statement. Your mileage may vary on how grand it is.

As another aside, I too personally favor a non-Inquisitor cover. All of this is an "If this, then..." scenario. I only mention promotional material at all because if it is going to feature a character at all, it will use the default character from the game to avoid confusion.

[Killdren88]

I really don't understand why the Gender matters. Your making your own character anyway, why should it matter to you that the cover art or the Inquisitor they use in the trailer isn't the gender or skin color you want? Your making your Inquisitor the way you want him/her anyway. Why does it matter to you on what Bioware uses?

[Biotic Sage]

Killdren88 wrote...

I really don't understand why the Gender matters. Your making your own character anyway, why should it matter to you that the cover art or the Inquisitor they use in the trailer isn't the gender or skin color you want? Your making your Inquisitor the way you want him/her anyway. Why does it matter to you on what Bioware uses?

Because some people are apparently greatly affected by the marketing instead of focusing on the actual game...?

Or, giving the benefit of the doubt, someone isn't personally affected by the marketing but realizes that many are and just wants a win on principle for female gender representation in video games.

Modifié par Biotic Sage, 11 septembre 2013 - 07:35 .

[Deflagratio]

Telling players that there is an "Ideal" inquisitor look seems to spit in the very face of those who put multiple races in the game.

That said, if there (for promotional purposes) is a default (or I think a better term; marketing) inquisitor, whatever. Though since the marketing identity would have to appeal to the broad audience and those not informed... It's probably going to have to be Grizzled Male Warrior No.98,481,819

Modifié par Deflagratio, 11 septembre 2013 - 07:43 .

[theflyingzamboni]

Killdren88 wrote...

I really don't understand why the Gender matters. Your making your own character anyway, why should it matter to you that the cover art or the Inquisitor they use in the trailer isn't the gender or skin color you want? Your making your Inquisitor the way you want him/her anyway. Why does it matter to you on what Bioware uses?

Short answer? How things are presented in media influences perception of societal norms. If women are depicted as protagonists more often, it sends the message that gaming is a hobby that welcomes women. If almost exclusively men are depicted as protagonists, it sends the message that gaming is hobby intended for almost exclusively men. It matters because within the context of our society, we have created an inequity.

Note: The current inequity creates the context for these messages. If we lived in a hypothetical world where the opposite were true, then the implied message would be the opposite, the genders would be swapped. If representation were already equal, then neither choice would send those messages, because the issue wouldn't exist.

Long answer: People have written entire essays on the effects of media on the social consciousness. If you mean those questions as genuine curiousity, and not rhetoric, then read some. There are a lot of interesting ideas to think about in that area.

[Star fury]

Renmiri1 wrote...

Sassy FemHawke voice was perfection! I love her and Varric's banter

That actress was pretty bad, she only made a somewhat decent job on sarcastic Hawke. MaleHawke was only marginally batter.

Modifié par Star fury, 11 septembre 2013 - 07:57 .

[Billy-the-Squid]

Thief-of-Hearts wrote...

Tomb Raider has a female protagonist and sells well. The Resident Evil series has female protagonists along with males and also sells well. ((There's also been fan outcry for the return of Claire and Jill in the main series rather than side story games since neither have been in one since RE3))

On a smaller scale, the Fatal Frame series was also pretty successful and has (mostly) female protagonists (sort of, if you ever play all of the games). You also have the Parasite Eve games as well.

All of those games also feature the ladies on the cover.

Saying a game can't sell well because of a female protagonist is a BS theory and companies know it's a BS theory but choose to use it anyway when they are grasping at straws for why and game does poorly.

Misandrist.

Tomb Raider flopped as per Square Enix Expectations, Resident Evil 6 failed to live up to the publisher's expectations.

Fatal frame is unheard of and was released on the PS2 and Original Xbox, no one has heard of it since.

They all failed to live up to expectations or become commercial successes, by attracting enough sales, despite your notion that putting a woman on the cover would help the game in anyway, it didn't and it doesn't. Those games failed to achieve success, or at least secure sufficient sales, on their own merits. ie: the game couldn't draw a large enough market to break even or meet projections.

Now are you going to walk up and tell the likes of Ken Lavine that he should put a woman on the cover of BioShock Infinite because it's right? When he went and tested the penetration of the previous Bioshock games' marketing with the largest demographic "white males" and found that it didn't actually appeal to them, yet when they actually played Infinite they enjoyed it and noted the gameplay was similar to what they wanted, regardless of marketing?

You expect developers and publishers to stand on principle rather than attempt to maximise the success in a potential market by appealing to it and making it aware of a products existence? Pfffffft

[Deflagratio]

Tequila Cat wrote...

Thief-of-Hearts wrote...

Tomb Raider has a female protagonist and sells well. The Resident Evil series has female protagonists along with males and also sells well. ((There's also been fan outcry for the return of Claire and Jill in the main series rather than side story games since neither have been in one since RE3))

On a smaller scale, the Fatal Frame series was also pretty successful and has (mostly) female protagonists (sort of, if you ever play all of the games). You also have the Parasite Eve games as well.

All of those games also feature the ladies on the cover.

Saying a game can't sell well because of a female protagonist is a BS theory and companies know it's a BS theory but choose to use it anyway when they are grasping at straws for why and game does poorly.

Misandrist.

Tomb Raider flopped as per Square Enix Expectations, Resident Evil 6 failed to live up to the publisher's expectations.

Your information is incorrect.

Tombraider sold quite well, and was financially successful. It failed to meet Square's sales expectations, but when you expect to sell 18% more than the latest Call of Duty installment, who's really to blame.

Resident Evil 6 sold very well too, however it was a finacial flop because it was poorly managed to the point where it became an expensive boondoggle.

lern2researchkthx.

[Adanu]

Keep your feminist bull**** out of my games.

[Ravensword]

Adanu wrote...

Keep your feminist bull**** out of my games.

Please elaborate on "feminist bull****."

[Rolling Flame]

Renmiri1 wrote...
Please, please Bioware do make a female protagonist canon, ONCE for a change! I can't read any of the Revan novels, it irks me that that impostor is a man, unlike my Revan, and that goes the same for every single book from game franchises. Can we females at least have one for us ? 

The "canon" Warden is a female Dalish Elf, for what it's worth.

[The Elder King]

I'd like if there's no 'default' Inquisitor, expecially because of the four races. Just show different race/class/gender combo in different demo/trailers.
As for the cover, I'd prefer to have the Inquisition insignia at the centre.

[Eragon-]

Seems like this thread has run its course unless, people don't respond to obvious flame baits.