334 réponses à ce sujet

[spirosz]

Morocco Mole wrote...

Who cares

[mikeymoonshine]

Xilizhra wrote...

I think there is a real problem here and I would blame Feminism or at least some of the Femenists for making this kinda debate Toxic.

I can't say I would like a female protag, or a non white protag, or gay people in the game or nin cis gendered people without someone assuming I am some some PC war path.

That's the fault of the idiots making unsupported assumptions.

Well yes but it's also the fault of The kind of Tumblr Rad feminism that seems insitent on demonising everything and everyone who does not agree with them. 

People get defensive and assume your opinions are like theirs. 

[spirosz]

mikeymoonshine wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

I think there is a real problem here and I would blame Feminism or at least some of the Femenists for making this kinda debate Toxic.

I can't say I would like a female protag, or a non white protag, or gay people in the game or nin cis gendered people without someone assuming I am some some PC war path.

That's the fault of the idiots making unsupported assumptions.

Well yes but it's also the fault of The kind of Tumblr Rad feminism that seems insitent on demonising everything and everyone who does not agree with them. 

People get defensive and assume your opinions are like theirs. 

That's life, lol.  If you clearly communicate your stance on the position, but they still end up getting hostile towards you, instead of your argument - that is their problem, not yours, since you know where you're coming from in relation towards the argument.  

[mikeymoonshine]

spirosz wrote...

mikeymoonshine wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

I think there is a real problem here and I would blame Feminism or at least some of the Femenists for making this kinda debate Toxic.

I can't say I would like a female protag, or a non white protag, or gay people in the game or nin cis gendered people without someone assuming I am some some PC war path.

That's the fault of the idiots making unsupported assumptions.

Well yes but it's also the fault of The kind of Tumblr Rad feminism that seems insitent on demonising everything and everyone who does not agree with them. 

People get defensive and assume your opinions are like theirs. 

That's life, lol.  If you clearly communicate your stance on the position, but they still end up getting hostile towards you, instead of your argument - that is their problem, not yours, since you know where you're coming from in relation towards the argument.  

I guess what I was saying is both sides need to cool down and realize we aren't all biggoted sexist homophobes and we aren't all rediculous OTT radical feminists either. 

If we are going to talk about all this grown up stuff like gender politics, racism and homophobia (and transphobia) we need to behave like grown ups. 

[spirosz]

I agree with you, but I don't expect anything out of people, if they choose to express themselves in that way, then that is one less "argument is going nowhere" I have to deal with.

[mikeymoonshine]

spirosz wrote...

I agree with you, but I don't expect anything out of people, if they choose to express themselves in that way, then that is one less "argument is going nowhere" I have to deal with.

Ahaha yes you are probably right. I might just avoid these kinds of topics from now on . 

Knowing me I wont do that at all. 

[Friera]

draken-heart wrote...

I am a guy, but love a badass female protagonist. Can't play a male in Bioware games because of it.

I am a woman, but I love badass male protagonist. Can´t play a female in Bioware games because of it.

But honestly, I don´t really care who is default or not. Don´t see the reason why people are so ... opinionated about it, since the game is excactly the same regardless of default gender.

[Taura-Tierno]

Friera wrote...

draken-heart wrote...

I am a guy, but love a badass female protagonist. Can't play a male in Bioware games because of it.

I am a woman, but I love badass male protagonist. Can´t play a female in Bioware games because of it.

But honestly, I don´t really care who is default or not. Don´t see the reason why people are so ... opinionated about it, since the game is excactly the same regardless of default gender.

I imagine it is because Bioware has a history of being progressive and inclusive in other aspects of their games. With how women are reprsented, with same-sex issues. And so, many people hope that they would dare challenge the norm of having men on covers of video games yet again. 

Why people are so wildly proclaiming that video games with women on the cover won't sell, is a better question. 

[Magdalena11]

It's not feminism, it's wanting to play what you are.

[FKA_Servo]

I think if there's a default protagonist, it should be a woman. I'd rather not have a default protagonist at all.

I'm pretty sure we don't need one on the box to have a successful game.

[Herr Uhl]

Wouldn't be much of a mystery as to who the villain is if they do it Kotor style though.

[Steelcan]

its not going to happen

[spirosz]

Magdalena11 wrote...

It's not feminism, it's wanting to play what you are.

What.

You are able to play either gender. 

[Seboist]

Magdalena11 wrote...

It's not feminism, it's wanting to play what you are.

So, you wouldn't play a game with a non-human protag like Sonic the Hedgehog because it'd beak your IMMURSHUN? Rofl.

[Steelcan]

FemShep is consistently lauded and yet less than one in five players made her their main play through.

It wouldn't make sense

[Xilizhra]

Seboist wrote...

Magdalena11 wrote...

It's not feminism, it's wanting to play what you are.

So, you wouldn't play a game with a non-human protag like Sonic the Hedgehog because it'd beak your IMMURSHUN? Rofl.

RPGs are different. When you don't have any choices to make, it doesn't really matter as much.

[FKA_Servo]

Herr Uhl wrote...

Wouldn't be much of a mystery as to who the villain is if they do it Kotor style though.

That's a fair point. What I'm getting at is that there's probably going to be a whole cast of compelling, colorful personalities in the game. Why not put them in the box? Stick them in the trailers?

Or just keep it simple and classy:

[WildOrchid]

Steelcan wrote...

FemShep is consistently lauded and yet less than one in five players made her their main play through.

It wouldn't make sense

Because she wasn't marketed to death as maleshep and she only got one damn trailer and then she vanished. And people, outside of bsn thought that playing the dude in trailers was the only 'right' way. If she was marketed the same way, then i'm sure she'd have a fair %. Also, I don't believe in the 18%, this is ridiculous at most.



Also, LOL @ people who say women don't sell. There were games with male protagonists and failed really hard. And also there were successfull games with women protagonists. So it's safe to say, if the game is not good overall, then it will fail and it has nothing to do with female/male protagonist.

Modifié par WildOrchid, 11 septembre 2013 - 02:02 .

[Steelcan]

So ignore BioWare's own statistics. Yes the foundation of a strong argument that is.

The issue is that IN GENERAL, not always, male protagonists sell better than female ones. And when the majority of the player base plays male, by a large margin, a lack of resources dedicated to marketing for a female protagonist is to be expected.

[mickey111]

it misses the point of RPG so who cares.

[t0mm06]

Led Guardian wrote...

I know that posting this is a bad idea, and this topic will get locked sooner or later like most other similar ones when it inevitably goes off-topic, but here it is anyway.

I am really hoping that BioWare will choose to go this route. They took a promising step in this direction with giving Femshep her own trailer and box art, but I would like to see them go all the way with Inquisition.

Making a female the default for purposes of character creation and promotion may only be a small cosmetic shift as far implementation, but it would make a powerful statement symbolically. BioWare may not be the biggest developer around, but they are still a prominent and successful one, and this choice coming from such a big-name publisher could help show the industry that games with female protagonists are marketable. We've all seen people argue that it's not done because it's not profitable, but let's be honest, there isn't a big enough sample size to make this assertion because almost no one will take the chance in the first place.

I think BioWare is in a good position to push a female protagonist as the default. BioWare has historically been a lot better at creating more progressive gender representation than most games I've seen. That's not to say they are perfect (*looks askance at Miranda's prominently featured posterior*), but better. This seems to stem from their strange idea of treating women in their games as characters who happen to be female, instead of just buxom plot devices. The women I know who play games say they keep replaying Dragon Age and Mass Effect
because they're nearly the only choice for games with a strong female protagonist in the lead role.

From reading comments made by David Gaider, it seems clear to me that he (and, I would guess, many others at BioWare) cares deeply about treating all genders/sexualities with respect in their games. I've gotten the impression from things he's said that Mr. Gaider, at least, would be supportive of featuring the female Inquisitor prominently (see kotaku.com/and-then-the-video-game-industry-woke-up-464888949 and dgaider.tumblr.com/ for some of his opinions on women in games; also for amusement as his tumblr is pretty great).

So that's what I'm hoping. Not just that the Femquisitor (I'm going to go ahead and coin this portmanteau along with Manquisitor) will be a choice, or that she will get a nod or two in marketing, but that Bioware will take the step of making her the face of the game, like they did with male Hawke and Sheploo. A chance to move the industry a step in the right direction in representing "minorities" (heavy quotation marks). Even better would be a non-white female default (I really am getting tired of seeing hard-jawed white men almost everywhere I look in the game industry), but one step at a time I suppose.

I'm not really sure what discussion I'm hoping to provoke out of this topic. Mainly I'm hoping that Mr. Gaider will stumble across this in his forum prowling and offer comment.

So if you do see this Mr. Gaider, what do you think the chances are of Femquisitor being default in DA:I? Is this something that you personally would like to or are willing to push for at the studio?

You do have several really good points here, although i would say that  
'We've all seen people argue that it's not done because it's not profitable, but let's be honest, there isn't a big enough sample size to make this assertion because almost no one will take the chance in the first place.' 
isnt exactly one of them. The issues with this statment is that from a fiscal (spl?) point of view this isnt a strong argument, basically like saying 'well we dont know it WONT lose us money' which really is a risk that a lot of people dont like.
However there are some few games which have female protagonists without even the choice of male ones tomb raider for instance, and before anyone says the new ones very good and that doesnt over sexualise her. 
So i dont think that a female protional character will effect sales, but keep in mind from a sales point of view they're more likely to go with the 'safe' choice.

My main point thought is that I dont really want a 'defult' character at all really. I found it difficult to play as anyone except base Hawke because so much of the promotion saqid he was the main character and that is what he looked like. 
I really just hope that they continue with using the character that we've seen so far, someone with a helmet that covers most of their face, whether that be a female or male face. 

[TK514]

TommyServo wrote...

Herr Uhl wrote...

Wouldn't be much of a mystery as to who the villain is if they do it Kotor style though.

That's a fair point. What I'm getting at is that there's probably going to be a whole cast of compelling, colorful personalities in the game. Why not put them in the box? Stick them in the trailers?

Or just keep it simple and classy:

probably because from a marketing perspective, that image is worthless.  It has no meaning or context.  It doesn't immediately convey what the game is about, or give any reason that the casual shopper should pick up the box and learn more.  The only people that box would appeal to are people who already know about the setting, and that isn't the audience boxes are designed for.

[Taleroth]

Herr Uhl wrote...

Wouldn't be much of a mystery as to who the villain is if they do it Kotor style though.

KOTOR II doesn't show the final boss, either.

[WildOrchid]

Steelcan wrote...

So ignore BioWare's own statistics. Yes the foundation of a strong argument that is.

The issue is that IN GENERAL, not always, male protagonists sell better than female ones. And when the majority of the player base plays male, by a large margin, a lack of resources dedicated to marketing for a female protagonist is to be expected.

The problem is, devs never cared enough to put more female protagonists because of this ridiculous 'fear'. A few games with female protagonists, doesnt really say much about females selling or not selling. Fact is, games with female protagonists sold as much good as male ones.

You say it like we have MANY games with female protagonists. We don't. We never had because the devs always started with males because apparently they thought that males are the only ones who play games, they never were. So, to say games with females don't sell is old and dumb argument.

Modifié par WildOrchid, 11 septembre 2013 - 02:18 .

[FKA_Servo]

TK514 wrote...

probably because from a marketing perspective, that image is worthless.  It has no meaning or context.  It doesn't immediately convey what the game is about, or give any reason that the casual shopper should pick up the box and learn more.  The only people that box would appeal to are people who already know about the setting, and that isn't the audience boxes are designed for.

True, but



Obviously, anyone who's played an Elder Scrolls game as an idea what they're getting, but it wasn't just the established fanbase that made it Bethesda's best selling game to date. And i'm not saying ignore other advertising mediums, either.

I understand they used Morrigan in DAO's campaign quite a bit, and I've seen the excellent trailer that features many of the companions (as well as an extremely bland Warden - which was a mistake). I don't see why they can't craft a good marketing campaign using nothing but NPCs.

Modifié par TommyServo, 11 septembre 2013 - 02:17 .