137 réponses à ce sujet

[Wulfram]

Will this little theological issue come up?  Previously our PCs tended to get something of a pass on this - Warden becomes Arl, Sebastian happily says that Hawke should be Viscount, and they do so in the Templar ending - but it seems like it should be a pretty big deal, and the inquisitor seems like they'll be wielding a pretty significant amount of authority.

Will Templars and Chantry types bring it up?  If the PC supports the Templars and the Chantry, will their apparent hypocrisy be mentioned?  Could the PC themselves express doubt about their actions?  I know at least one of my wardens would have freaked about the Arl thing, if they hadn't already died.

(Yes, it's quite possible to interpret that sentence as not prohibiting Mage rulers.  But I'm sticking to the White Chanty interpretation for the purposes of this post)

[Taleroth]

That line doesn't mean mages can't be in positions of rulership. It just means you can't organize a magocracy. Which he's not.

Though if he did, good luck stopping him.

[AutumnWitch]

I have never understood if they're so called maker is so awesome and all powerful why does He allow Mages to be born in the first place? Why not just wave His omnipotent hand and take magic away from humans, elves, et al.

[kathic]

Who's going to stop me? I will rule this world with fire and blood.

[VampireSoap]

AutumnWitch wrote...

I have never understood if they're so called maker is so awesome and all powerful why does He allow Mages to be born in the first place? Why not just wave His omnipotent hand and take magic away from humans, elves, et al.

LOL at this comment. Just think about how many stupid religions in the real world, and you'll be albe to answer your own question.

[Taleroth]

AutumnWitch wrote...

I have never understood if they're so called maker is so awesome and all powerful why does He allow Mages to be born in the first place? Why not just wave His omnipotent hand and take magic away from humans, elves, et al.

Because he turned away from his creations until the chant is spread to all four corners of Thedas.

That's the official stance of the Chantry for just about anything.

[Daerog]

AutumnWitch wrote...

I have never understood if they're so called maker is so awesome and all powerful why does He allow Mages to be born in the first place? Why not just wave His omnipotent hand and take magic away from humans, elves, et al.

Because it is not only considered a curse but a gift as well.

"Magic exists to serve man, and never to rule over him.
Foul and corrupt are they
Who have taken His gift
And turned it against His children.
They shall be named Maleficar, accursed ones.
They shall find no rest in this world
Or beyond."

[Maria Caliban]

The Maker isn't anti-mage. The anti-mage bias in Thedas is due to a magocracy conquering and enslaving its inhabitants for a couple centuries. Remember? Hundreds of slaves sacrificed for blood magic rituals?

Even if the Maker were anti-mage, he's abandoned the world. What mages do isn't his concern any more.

VampireSoap wrote...

LOL at this comment. Just think about how many stupid religions in the real world, and you'll be albe to answer your own question.

I suspect that the problem is that instead of looking at the lore, she went Maker = Jehovah, Mages = witches and extrapolated.

Modifié par Maria Caliban, 11 septembre 2013 - 09:37 .

[Jedi Master of Orion]

The Chant of Light describes magic as a "gift" from the Maker. It's not part of Chantry doctrine that mages shouldn't exist. It's not an inherently anti-magic religion, but was it founded by a person very wary of the endless abuses of the magocratic Tevinter Imperium, which at the time ruled most of the known world.

[Wulfram]

Taleroth wrote...

That line doesn't mean mages can't be in positions of rulership. It just means you can't organize a magocracy. Which he's not.

Though if he did, good luck stopping him.

That's an interpretation.  But I do not believe it's the one that is held outside Tevinter

http://dragonage.wik...mperial_Chantry

The Maker's second commandment, "Magic must serve man, not rule over him," never held the same meaning within the ancient Tevinter Imperium
as it did elsewhere. The Chantry there interpreted the rule as meaning
that mages should never control the minds of other men, and that
otherwise their magic should benefit the rulers of men as much as
possible.
...
The Circle of the Magi today rules Tevinter directly, ever since the Archon
Nomaran was elected in 7:34 Storm directly from the ranks of the
enchanters, to great applause from the public. He dispensed with the old
rules forbidding mages from taking part in politics, and within a
century, the true rulers within the various imperial houses-the
mages-took their places openly within the government

[Azaron Nightblade]

Wulfram wrote...

Will this little theological issue come up?  Previously our PCs tended to get something of a pass on this - Warden becomes Arl, Sebastian happily says that Hawke should be Viscount, and they do so in the Templar ending - but it seems like it should be a pretty big deal, and the inquisitor seems like they'll be wielding a pretty significant amount of authority.

In DA:O you didn't get a complete pass on it, Anora very much rejects you if you're a mage and want to be king - and she also explains the why behind it. (the people would never accept a mage)
The Inquisitor is a whole different story than the other two though; it seems like he'll be in a position of power very early on due to circumstances - and will be passing judgement regularly rather than being judged. 

[Heimdall]

AutumnWitch wrote...

I have never understood if they're so called maker is so awesome and all powerful why does He allow Mages to be born in the first place? Why not just wave His omnipotent hand and take magic away from humans, elves, et al.

The Maker is a very passive aggressive deity.  That said, nothing in the Chant says mages are vile and must be destroyed.  That one line in the chant, upon which all Andrastrian policy towards mages is based, can be interpreted in various ways.  The Tervinter, for example, claims it only means blood magic, particularly the mind control aspect, needs to be forbidden (Not that the Magisters let that stop them).

My Mage Hawke interpreted it as generally not letting the power of magic go to your head or using it to lord over others, a heretical interpretation, but there it is.

[mikeymoonshine]

Rogue group! In opposition to the Chantry! Has an army apparently!

The Warden wasn't really an Arl, Technically he/she had the power of an Arl but the power came from being Warden Commander and we know mages can be Wardens without having to answer to templars and mage restriction laws.

The Chantry has little to no Power atm, The Templars are divided and at war, The seekers are also divided.

Who is going to be able to stop you?

Oh and a mage isn't a Hypocrite if they support the Templars and the Chantry. Some mages believe that they are dangerous and should be kept in circles.

I will give you the Seb thing but DA2 handled Hawke being a mage terribly.

[Taleroth]

Wulfram wrote...

Taleroth wrote...

That line doesn't mean mages can't be in positions of rulership. It just means you can't organize a magocracy. Which he's not.

Though if he did, good luck stopping him.

That's an interpretation.  But I do not believe it's the one that is held outside Tevinter

That's specifically not a policy held in Tevinter. Tevinter runs a Magocracy.

Modifié par Taleroth, 11 septembre 2013 - 09:40 .

[AutumnWitch]

Lord Aesir wrote...

AutumnWitch wrote...

I have never understood if they're so called maker is so awesome and all powerful why does He allow Mages to be born in the first place? Why not just wave His omnipotent hand and take magic away from humans, elves, et al.

The Maker is a very passive aggressive deity.  That said, nothing in the Chant says mages are vile and must be destroyed.  That one line in the chant, upon which all Andrastrian policy towards mages is based, can be interpreted in various ways.  The Tervinter, for example, claims it only means blood magic, particularly the mind control aspect, needs to be forbidden (Not that the Magisters let that stop them).

My Mage Hawke interpreted it as generally not letting the power of magic go to your head or using it to lord over others, a heretical interpretation, but there it is.

Of course I agree with you. I was just pointing out the fallacy of some religious doctrines. The Cantry came about in response to the abuse of bad mages. The best way to wipe out something society doesn't like is to have a cultural/religious war against it.

[Reznore57]

I guess it's the same thing when you deal with Qunari.
Suddenly you being mage is irrelevant.

I'm pretty sure the Chantry forbid mage ruler ...always found it strange for mage Hawke to be Viscount.

Anyway for DA I , I don't think everything will make sense for our pc , mage /qunari/dwarf/elf...
I'm always playing mage and I like the Qun and the Chantry , if I had the "true " experience 100% lore approved , I guess I would see things in a very different light.
But hey they just can't create a unique story for every type of Inquisitor/Warden/Hawke.

[Wulfram]

Taleroth wrote...
 That's specifically not a policy held in Tevinter. Tevinter runs a Magocracy.

Well. the point is that the White Chanty interprets it as excluding mages from holding political power.

[azarhal]

Wulfram wrote...

Taleroth wrote...

That line doesn't mean mages can't be in positions of rulership. It just means you can't organize a magocracy. Which he's not.

Though if he did, good luck stopping him.

That's an interpretation.  But I do not believe it's the one that is held outside Tevinter

http://dragonage.wik...mperial_Chantry

The Maker's second commandment, "Magic must serve man, not rule over him," never held the same meaning within the ancient Tevinter Imperium
as it did elsewhere. The Chantry there interpreted the rule as meaning
that mages should never control the minds of other men, and that
otherwise their magic should benefit the rulers of men as much as
possible.
...
The Circle of the Magi today rules Tevinter directly, ever since the Archon
Nomaran was elected in 7:34 Storm directly from the ranks of the
enchanters, to great applause from the public. He dispensed with the old
rules forbidding mages from taking part in politics, and within a
century, the true rulers within the various imperial houses-the
mages-took their places openly within the government

Indeed, the Chantry doctrine says that a mage cannot unduly rule or become rulers themselves. The Inquisitor is ruling keeps and land as we can see in the pre-alpha demo. This would mean that a mage Inquisitor is going against the Chantry rule on mages, but I suspect BioWare is going to ignore this like they ignored apostate mage Hawke running around Kirkwall doing blood magic in DA2...or it's temporary.

[Mr.House]

My Hawke, who was a mage became viscountness with the full support of the Templar order. That saying is ignored alot.

[Potato Cat]

Magic is a gift because it isn't purely a force of destruction. Healing magic and other spells in the Creation School is generally well received, if Anders' clinic is anything to go by.

[Wulfram]

azarhal wrote...

Indeed, the Chantry doctrine says that a mage cannot unduly rule or become rulers themselves. The Inquisitor is ruling keeps and land as we can see in the pre-alpha demo. This would mean that a mage Inquisitor is going against the Chantry rule on mages, but I suspect BioWare is going to ignore this like they ignored apostate mage Hawke running around Kirkwall doing blood magic in DA2...or it's temporary.

But they don't have to ignore it, they could instead make it interesting.

[Jaison1986]

The Chantry just conveniently twist historical truth in order to make the impression they want to. Such as some scholars suggesting Andraste was an mage and that's why she had the power to pull off an revolution the way she did, and the Chantry goes ballistic over the very suggestion. But still, I really want to see the reason for Cassandra allowing an mage of all people to lead an organization that will be changing the fate of Thedas.

[Taleroth]

Wulfram wrote...

But they don't have to ignore it, they could instead make it interesting.

If they make all classes similarly interesting, I'm all for it.

[VampireSoap]

Maria Caliban wrote...

The Maker isn't anti-mage. The anti-mage bias in Thedas is due to a magocracy conquering and enslaving its inhabitants for a couple centuries. Remember? Hundreds of slaves sacrificed for blood magic rituals?

Even if the Maker were anti-mage, he's abandoned the world. What mages do isn't his concern any more.

VampireSoap wrote...

LOL at this comment. Just think about how many stupid religions in the real world, and you'll be albe to answer your own question.

I suspect that the problem is that instead of looking at the lore, she went Maker = Jehovah, Mages = witches and extrapolated.

I mean, she's not far off. The idea of an omnipresent, omnipotent and omniscient being is absurb in and of itself. If an adult believes in Santa Cause, everyone loses their mind! But if an adult believes in an invisible being that can listen to billions of people whispering to him in prayers simultaneously and give "profound" responses, everyone just keeps reading their newspaper and figures the guy is just a Catholic. I think the developers are right to include this kind of ignorance in the game, makes it...more realistic.

Modifié par VampireSoap, 11 septembre 2013 - 09:49 .

[azarhal]

Wulfram wrote...

azarhal wrote...

Indeed, the Chantry doctrine says that a mage cannot unduly rule or become rulers themselves. The Inquisitor is ruling keeps and land as we can see in the pre-alpha demo. This would mean that a mage Inquisitor is going against the Chantry rule on mages, but I suspect BioWare is going to ignore this like they ignored apostate mage Hawke running around Kirkwall doing blood magic in DA2...or it's temporary.

But they don't have to ignore it, they could instead make it interesting.

They have ignored it since DAO....

But technically, the people in setting have also beeing ignoring it as well (Mortalitasi for example have some political sway in Nevarra).

Modifié par azarhal, 11 septembre 2013 - 09:49 .