137 réponses à ce sujet

[Wulfram]

Please don't make this a religion thread

[Daerog]

Jaison1986 wrote...

The Chantry just conveniently twist historical truth in order to make the impression they want to. Such as some scholars suggesting Andraste was an mage and that's why she had the power to pull off an revolution the way she did, and the Chantry goes ballistic over the very suggestion. But still, I really want to see the reason for Cassandra allowing an mage of all people to lead an organization that will be changing the fate of Thedas.

Maybe because the Chantry has a similar understanding with the Grey Wardens, who recruit mages, gives them positions of power, and possibly allow them to run the whole operation.

The Inquisition is like the Grey Wardens, it's not a new and unprecedented thing.

Edit: So, I don't see her having a problem if the Chantry doesn't.

Modifié par DaerogTheDhampir, 11 septembre 2013 - 09:51 .

[Maria Caliban]

AutumnWitch wrote...

I was just pointing out the fallacy of some religious doctrines.

A 'fallacy' that you invented.

[Jedi Master of Orion]

Chantry doctrine is that mages can't hold political power. Occasionally that is ignored or circumvented in rare cases like the mage Warden Commander of Amaranthine or the wealthier mages of Nevarra. But you can interpret the Chant in many ways. Even having a mage King or a mage Viscount doesn't necessarily mean there is a magocracy or that magic "rules over man".

[Maria Caliban]

Wulfram wrote...

But they don't have to ignore it, they could instead make it interesting.

That would be nice.

VampireSoap wrote...
The idea of an omnipresent, omnipotent and omniscient being is absurb in and of itself.

The Maker isn't characterized as any of these things.

[Taleroth]

The only thing really characterized about the maker is that he likes cute barbarian girls that can sing.

[VampireSoap]

Maria Caliban wrote...

Wulfram wrote...

But they don't have to ignore it, they could instead make it interesting.

That would be nice.

VampireSoap wrote...
The idea of an omnipresent, omnipotent and omniscient being is absurb in and of itself.

The Maker isn't characterized as any of these things.

The Maker is characterized as this by the writer, but the chant of light believes that He's omnipotent, and if the idiot followers don't believe he's omnipresent and omniscient, what's the point of them praying to him, really?

[RepHope]

^They don't believe he answers prayers its right there in the wiki

[mikeymoonshine]

They said there would be allot of reactivity for a mage. I really think it has to do with why you are setting up the Inquisition and why you are able to have an army and all that.

I don't think the Chantry or the Templars are in any position to stop you and this is why you are a "Rogue Group".

Essentially you are taking charge of Thedas and leaving them out of it if you wish.

[Ophir147]

Wulfram wrote...

Please don't make this a religion thread

"My hatred is a thousand times more powerful than all of your good intentions." - Jim Goad

Abandon thread, no civilized discussion to be found here

[VampireSoap]

RepHope wrote...

^They don't believe he answers prayers its right there in the wiki

Yeah, right. A person assumes that there's an all powerful being out there (based on no evidence whatsoever) that will never do anything, and yet he keeps praying to this entity. And you find nothing wrong in this logic? People pray because they think something out there's gonna magically rescue them from whatever shxthole they've dived in. That part of the wiki is wrong, or that part of writing is illogical.

Alas, I'm tired of this debate, you'll see no more comment from me.

Modifié par VampireSoap, 11 septembre 2013 - 10:24 .

[jeckaldied]

VampireSoap wrote...

RepHope wrote...

^They don't believe he answers prayers its right there in the wiki

Yeah, right. A person assumes that there's an all powerful being out there (based on no evidence whatsoever) that will never do anything, and yet he keeps praying to this entity. And you find nothing wrong in this logic? People pray because they think something out there's gonna magically rescue them from whatever shxthole they've dived in. That part of the wiki is wrong, or that part of writing is illogical.

Alas, I'm tired of this debate, you'll see no more comment from me.

That is very much the Chantry's stance on the Maker. During the Redcliffe quest line the knight ask you to get some blessed amulets from the  Chantry so they could have the Maker's protection; the head of the chantry in the village flat out says that the Maker doesn't bless people or answer prayers, hence why she will not give the knights amulets and is very much against even implying the amulets provide divine protection.

That's also why Leliana's claim of a vision from the Maker would be considered heresy at worst and why she expresses concern over how fellow lay sisters would react to it, because the Maker does not in anyway interfere in day to day life according to the Chantry.

(Also I realize you said you won't be posting any more, this is really just for anyone curious where the Chantry's stance on the Maker comes up in game)

Modifié par jeckaldied, 11 septembre 2013 - 10:28 .

[LobselVith8]

Wulfram wrote...

Will this little theological issue come up?  

It should. It's never been properly addressed in the past.

Wulfram wrote...

Previously our PCs tended to get something of a pass on this - Warden becomes Arl, Sebastian happily says that Hawke should be Viscount, and they do so in the Templar ending - but it seems like it should be a pretty big deal, and the inquisitor seems like they'll be wielding a pretty significant amount of authority.

I've heard some fans say that the developers admit that the templar ending for an apostate Hawke is problematic because of the lore, but Sebastian never seems to acknowledge Hawke being a mage - for some reason. I agree that the Hero of Ferelden being a mage and the new Arl was never addressed in Awakening, since we have a mage having power over lesser nobles and his own military.

Wulfram wrote...

Will Templars and Chantry types bring it up?  If the PC supports the Templars and the Chantry, will their apparent hypocrisy be mentioned?  Could the PC themselves express doubt about their actions?  I know at least one of my wardens would have freaked about the Arl thing, if they hadn't already died.

I'm wondering how Lambert's faction and Divine Justina V's own sect will react to a mage Inquisitor, since it seems that the protagonist will lead armies and gain power and allies.

Wulfram wrote...

(Yes, it's quite possible to interpret that sentence as not prohibiting Mage rulers.  But I'm sticking to the White Chanty interpretation for the purposes of this post) 

That was the issue with Connor, as Jowan explained.

[Volus Warlord]

VampireSoap wrote...
The idea of an omnipresent, omnipotent and omniscient being is absurb in and of itself.

I am all of these things. 

[LobselVith8]

VampireSoap wrote...

The Maker is characterized as this by the writer, but the chant of light believes that He's omnipotent, and if the idiot followers don't believe he's omnipresent and omniscient, what's the point of them praying to him, really? 

Technically, Andrastians (of the White Chantry) want the Chant sang in all four corners of the world to bring the Maker back. Leliana seems to think the Maker still watches over the world. However, The Warden could express that he thought belief in the Maker was a ridiculous superstition (to Justice in the City of Amaranthine), and the developers have said the new protagonist won't be forced to believe in the Maker. It certainly wouldn't be an issue for the Dalish protagonist, who will likely have the option to follow the Creators.

[VampireSoap]

Volus Warlord wrote...

VampireSoap wrote...
The idea of an omnipresent, omnipotent and omniscient being is absurb in and of itself.

I am all of these things. 

I bet you're also a biotic god, my cute little Volus

[Maria Caliban]

VampireSoap wrote...

The Maker is characterized as this by the writer, but the chant of light believes that He's omnipotent, and if the idiot followers don't believe he's omnipresent and omniscient, what's the point of them praying to him, really?

1. The chant of light does not describe him as omnipotent. It clearly shows he's not omniscient as when he creates his first children, he then sits around and waits to see what they'll do, and is surprised that they can only copy his works. Likewise, as they talk about his being absent, that would mean he's not omnipresent.

2. A god doesn't need to be omnipresent nor omniscient to be prayed to. The ancient roman and norse gods were neither, but that didn't stop their respective societies from praying to them or preforming rituals to please them.

Modifié par Maria Caliban, 11 septembre 2013 - 10:52 .

[lady_v23]

Wulfram wrote...

Will this little theological issue come up?  Previously our PCs tended to get something of a pass on this - Warden becomes Arl, Sebastian happily says that Hawke should be Viscount, and they do so in the Templar ending - but it seems like it should be a pretty big deal, and the inquisitor seems like they'll be wielding a pretty significant amount of authority.

Will Templars and Chantry types bring it up?  If the PC supports the Templars and the Chantry, will their apparent hypocrisy be mentioned?  Could the PC themselves express doubt about their actions?  I know at least one of my wardens would have freaked about the Arl thing, if they hadn't already died.

(Yes, it's quite possible to interpret that sentence as not prohibiting Mage rulers.  But I'm sticking to the White Chanty interpretation for the purposes of this post)

Oh yes.  I would really like this. 

[LadyRaena13]

The Inquisition isn't "ruling" anything is it? It's investigating and dealing with tears in the veil. Forts and keeps are necessary housing for other Inquisition forces the people that are there AREN'T in charge of the towns. These are my thoughts anyway, I got Dragon Age 2 just last year and even though as a mage I sided with the Templars a couple times it never said in the Epilogue or Varric's story that Hawke was the Viscountess. Maybe my game is glitched?

[Lord Raijin]

Wulfram wrote...

Please don't make this a religion thread

Why? It's fun

[Dean_the_Young]

AutumnWitch wrote...

I have never understood if they're so called maker is so awesome and all powerful why does He allow Mages to be born in the first place? Why not just wave His omnipotent hand and take magic away from humans, elves, et al.

You've never understood why overwhelmingly powerful forces choose not to involve themselves in the affairs of others?

Huh. I thought potential reasons would be obvious, especially since some are given in the lore.

[Plaintiff]

From what we've heard so far about the initial plot of the game, I don't think the Chantry will be in any position to put up much of a fuss.

[Plaintiff]

Dean_the_Young wrote...
You've never understood why overwhelmingly powerful forces choose not to involve themselves in the affairs of others?

Huh. I thought potential reasons would be obvious, especially since some are given in the lore.

I have trouble believing that a being with such power would give a **** about Thedas at all. But the Chantry claims that the Maker does, in which case, his presence should be felt, but it's not.

Luckily, they have an excuse for that.

Modifié par Plaintiff, 12 septembre 2013 - 12:29 .

[Wulfram]

Plaintiff wrote...

From what we've heard so far about the initial plot of the game, I don't think the Chantry will be in any position to put up much of a fuss.

I'm not saying you'd need the Chantry's blessing, or even that they'd necessarily deny it to a Mage Inquisitor in the right circumstances, I'm just saying it seems like it should come up, and that it could be an interesting conversation to have.  And even if the Chantry as an organisation is pretty screwed up at the momoent, it's not like the beliefs they've promoted throughout the continent are going to vanish over night.

And even if the Inquisitor could proceed in opposition to the Chantry, they might not wish to.  I'd hope the option to be part of Thedas' majority religion would exist.