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[Navasha]

"Magic exists to serve man...."

Why do I always see that anymore as an old Twilight episode?

Its a COOKBOOK!

[Dean_the_Young]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

If you're refering to 'magic exists to serve man', then mages aren't mentioned.

Does magic do anything on its own without mages making the decisions?

Yup.

Unless they define magic to include spirits - then it arguably makes sense.

The fade is indisputably a magical-related aspect of Thedas.

If you find abstract phrases meaningless, then that's simply your problem.

It seems to me to be a vague platitude.  It's used as if it justifies the chantry oversight of mages, but I don't think it actually justifies that.

Which is simply your problem, then. Abstract expresions work just fine for others.

[Sylvius the Mad]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Which is simply your problem, then. Abstract expresions work just fine for others.

But if you put an interpretive clause like that in a legal document, massive problems ensue.

Modifié par Sylvius the Mad, 14 septembre 2013 - 05:36 .

[Master Warder Z_]

 The Templars are correct in keeping Magic away from the general public but as far as i am aware there is no law preventing a Mage from assuming political office considering you have Nevarra and they have a very interesting view of magic.

Not to mention they are just south of the Imperium, They never took in the Orlaisian Chantry in their Nation via the Sword either so their local customs which are decidedly "Pro" Magic is primary to the imposition of the Chantry.

That said i would be surprised if the Templar order or the Seeker order would be thrilled if a mage was handed official political authority right in the middle of their war.

Perhaps their opinion would be diffrent after hostilities but placing a mage as a figurehead during the conflict likely won't endear them one little bit.

[Boycott Bioware]

It said "Magic must serve men" not "Mages must serve men"

So it is not wrong for a Mage to become a ruler and involve in politic

The Chantry is wrong

[LobselVith8]

azarhal wrote...

Sifr1449 wrote...

Given the sheer level of dogma the Chantry throw out, who knows what Andraste herself really said?

Legacy (DLC) showed that the Chantry is spouting the truth about its most debated aspect: Magisters did try to steal godly power form the Golden City and they ended up as darkspawns. Andraste was the one to make that claim according to the lore (the Maker told her, I suspect that part is debatable though).

Corypheus didn't say that the Magisters went there to usurp the power of the Maker; there is debate about whether the Golden City was even Golden when the Magisters entered the Golden City, and if it was already Black when it was entered by Corypheus and his brethren, then it calls into question whether Corypheus and the Magisters with him were even the first darkpsawn. Because of this, I don't think we can say the Chantry of Andraste is spouting "truth" about the event.

azarhal wrote...

The main issue with the Chant of Light is that people (in-lore) cherry pick certain lines. You see the "magic is to server man" everywhere, but I'm yet to see somebody bring the "Those who bring harm, Without provocation to the least of His children, Are hated and accursed by the Maker. " in game... 

There is also the issue that the Chantry of Andraste is based on one Cult of Maker turned into a national religion by Drakon, and we know there were others.

[Master Warder Z_]

LobselVith8 wrote...

azarhal wrote...

Sifr1449 wrote...

Given the sheer level of dogma the Chantry throw out, who knows what Andraste herself really said?

Legacy (DLC) showed that the Chantry is spouting the truth about its most debated aspect: Magisters did try to steal godly power form the Golden City and they ended up as darkspawns. Andraste was the one to make that claim according to the lore (the Maker told her, I suspect that part is debatable though).

Corypheus didn't say that the Magisters went there to usurp the power of the Maker; there is debate about whether the Golden City was even Golden when the Magisters entered the Golden City, and if it was already Black when it was entered by Corypheus and his brethren, then it calls into question whether Corypheus and the Magisters with him were even the first darkpsawn. Because of this, I don't think we can say the Chantry of Andraste is spouting "truth" about the event.

azarhal wrote...

The main issue with the Chant of Light is that people (in-lore) cherry pick certain lines. You see the "magic is to server man" everywhere, but I'm yet to see somebody bring the "Those who bring harm, Without provocation to the least of His children, Are hated and accursed by the Maker. " in game... 

There is also the issue that the Chantry of Andraste is based on one Cult of Maker turned into a national religion by Drakon, and we know there were others.

An Ancient Magister whom was one of the lords that breached into the Heart of the Fade and was cast back out as a Darkspawn. Is a noted Dumat worpshipper and whom ever spoke of stealing the light of God. I think the Chantry version is fairly valid as least as far as what is known now.

"The light. We sought the golden light. You offered... the power of the gods themselves. But it was... black... corrupt. Darkness... ever since. How long?"

That is his actual Quote from Legacy; So i would agrue the Chantry interepation is just as valid as any other theory, that the Magisters tainted the halls of the black city with their morally debatable magicks.

And the Maker Cult and the Andrastian chantry herald back to this time period, so while their writing may be figurative rather then literal or allegory rather then fact in some cases i wouldn't dismiss them as incorrect offhand.

[DKJaigen]

Wulfram wrote...

Will this little theological issue come up?  Previously our PCs tended to get something of a pass on this - Warden becomes Arl, Sebastian happily says that Hawke should be Viscount, and they do so in the Templar ending - but it seems like it should be a pretty big deal, and the inquisitor seems like they'll be wielding a pretty significant amount of authority.

Will Templars and Chantry types bring it up?  If the PC supports the Templars and the Chantry, will their apparent hypocrisy be mentioned?  Could the PC themselves express doubt about their actions?  I know at least one of my wardens would have freaked about the Arl thing, if they hadn't already died.

(Yes, it's quite possible to interpret that sentence as not prohibiting Mage rulers.  But I'm sticking to the White Chanty interpretation for the purposes of this post)

Most likely a mage inquisitor can tell the chantry and the templars where to shove it. But the inquisition is trying to accomplish is already a direct challenge to the inquisition. Their is no reason to listen a religion that lost all politcal cloud and will demand that you conform yourself to their rules.

[DKJaigen]

Master Warder Z wrote...

An Ancient Magister whom was one of the lords that breached into the Heart of the Fade and was cast back out as a Darkspawn. Is a noted Dumat worpshipper and whom ever spoke of stealing the light of God. I think the Chantry version is fairly valid as least as far as what is known now.

"The light. We sought the golden light. You offered... the power of the gods themselves. But it was... black... corrupt. Darkness... ever since. How long?"

That is his actual Quote from Legacy; So i would agrue the Chantry interepation is just as valid as any other theory, that the Magisters tainted the halls of the black city with their morally debatable magicks.

And the Maker Cult and the Andrastian chantry herald back to this time period, so while their writing may be figurative rather then literal or allegory rather then fact in some cases i wouldn't dismiss them as incorrect offhand.

The arguments are invalid because nobody knows what the black city is. i would be more concerned about the black city then corypheus. I dont think the magisters of old went to golden/black city to **** up the entire world. And  the maker does exist and he created the darkspawn for the crimes of a few then he is one hell of an ****.

[LobselVith8]

Master Warder Z wrote...

The Templars are correct in keeping Magic away from the general public but as far as i am aware there is no law preventing a Mage from assuming political office considering you have Nevarra and they have a very interesting view of magic.

It's against Chantry law, which is why some fans were wondering why a mage protagonist becoming the new Arl of Amaranthine wasn't addressed in Awakening, and why some fans have brought up the developers addressing that apostate Hawke siding with Meredith and becoming the new Viscount was problematic because of the lore. Also, Jowan explains the issue with Connor being unable to become Arl of Amaranthine if it was discovered that he was a mage. Frankly, I don't see how you expect a mage to hold political office from inside a Circle Tower.

Master Warder Z wrote...

Not to mention they are just south of the Imperium, They never took in the Orlaisian Chantry in their Nation via the Sword either so their local customs which are decidedly "Pro" Magic is primary to the imposition of the Chantry.

Nevarra seems a little more liberal, but they are still an Andrastian nation. Perhaps Inquisition will address how different things are for mages in that nation.

Master Warder Z wrote...

That said i would be surprised if the Templar order or the Seeker order would be thrilled if a mage was handed official political authority right in the middle of their war.

Which makes me curious how they will react to a mage protagonist, or even a Dalish mage protagonist (given the animosity the two have for one another).

Master Warder Z wrote...

Perhaps their opinion would be diffrent after hostilities but placing a mage as a figurehead during the conflict likely won't endear them one little bit. 

I agree that Lambert's faction likely won't approve of a mage leader having political power.

[ThreeGemSheepy]

I don't see why a mag shouldn't be in a place of political power as long as they don't abuse their position. Imagine if for instance wynne was given say the teyrnir of Gwaren

[In Exile]

LobselVith8 wrote...
Corypheus didn't say that the Magisters went there to usurp the power of the Maker; there is debate about whether the Golden City was even Golden when the Magisters entered the Golden City, and if it was already Black when it was entered by Corypheus and his brethren

There's an important distinction between the City being golden on the outside and "golden" on the inside. 

[In Exile]

ThreeGemSheepy wrote...

I don't see why a mag shouldn't be in a place of political power as long as they don't abuse their position. Imagine if for instance wynne was given say the teyrnir of Gwaren

What happens if the Chantry decides to put Irving's head on a spike? How do you think Wynne will react? Or if the Chantry decides to murder every single mage child in the Circle? A mage noble - with an army, a resource base - won't likely stand for that. That's why the Chantry can't both perpetrate their Circle system and allow mages any shred of political power. 

[Herr Uhl]

In Exile wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...
Corypheus didn't say that the Magisters went there to usurp the power of the Maker; there is debate about whether the Golden City was even Golden when the Magisters entered the Golden City, and if it was already Black when it was entered by Corypheus and his brethren

There's an important distinction between the City being golden on the outside and "golden" on the inside. 

There are still people contesting that the city was visible before becoming the black city, and that it being golden on the outside was just a rumor.

[Master Warder Z_]

In Exile wrote...

ThreeGemSheepy wrote...

I don't see why a mag shouldn't be in a place of political power as long as they don't abuse their position. Imagine if for instance wynne was given say the teyrnir of Gwaren

What happens if the Chantry decides to put Irving's head on a spike? How do you think Wynne will react? Or if the Chantry decides to murder every single mage child in the Circle? A mage noble - with an army, a resource base - won't likely stand for that. That's why the Chantry can't both perpetrate their Circle system and allow mages any shred of political power. 

True i suppose but the Chantry version is the only version at the moment, you have Alistair admiting the Gray Wardens the order formed in the very first blight, made up of some of the richest, most powerful men and women in existance for numerous era's and ages admitting they got nothing.

If you happen to have another theory then the one the Chantry presents feel free to share it though.

The Chantry version at the very least has some of the Lore and evidence on its side.

That said the Gray Wardens may have an inkling as to what occured as Avernous hinted in DAO.

Though whether or not he was on the right course to find the answers and power he sought is certainly up to debate, Darkspawn are not of the fade they are alien to it. That leans to it being a Mortal plane concern rather then a spiritual one.

The Magisters being cast back is a viable explaination of how such a thing could occur and you even have a Magister there who was tainted, turned into a darkspawn admitting they breached the Golden City.

The pieces are there, but its all speculation.

EDIT: Quoted the wrong reply but i did manage to get the right person at least 

Modifié par Master Warder Z , 14 septembre 2013 - 09:40 .

[Dean_the_Young]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Which is simply your problem, then. Abstract expresions work just fine for others.

But if you put an interpretive clause like that in a legal document, massive problems ensue.

Plenty of legal statements are based on interpretive clauses. Flexibility of wording and interpretation is actually a major piece of successfull and enduring legislation, allowing it to be used in differing circumstances over broad periods of time. Overly rigid legal documents can easly become impractical and then either replaced or ignored.

Fortunately for that tangent, however, we are not dealing with a legal document.

[KC_Prototype]

For my Mage Warden, his goal was to become the most powerful mage in Thedas. Maybe my inquisitor will do the same.

[Xilizhra]

Fortunately for that tangent, however, we are not dealing with a legal document.

Indeed. We're dealing with an institution that should have no legal powerto begin with.

An Ancient Magister whom was one of the lords that breached into the Heart of the Fade and was cast back out as a Darkspawn. Is a noted Dumat worpshipper and whom ever spoke of stealing the light of God. I think the Chantry version is fairly valid as least as far as what is known now.

"The light. We sought the golden light. You offered... the power of the gods themselves. But it was... black... corrupt. Darkness... ever since. How long?"

Power of the gods, not the Maker. I don't think they had any interest at all in taking the power of the Maker... or even had any notion of one existing to begin with.

[In Exile]

Herr Uhl wrote...
There are still people contesting that the city was visible before becoming the black city, and that it being golden on the outside was just a rumor.

Yes, but DG outright confirmed that it was seen as Golden by people before the blight. Documents of that may even exist. It was in the same thread in the DA2 forums were he mentioned that the cult of the Maker predated Andraste. 

[Hellion Rex]

Xilizhra wrote...

Fortunately for that tangent, however, we are not dealing with a legal document.

Indeed. We're dealing with an institution that should have no legal powerto begin with.

An Ancient Magister whom was one of the lords that breached into the Heart of the Fade and was cast back out as a Darkspawn. Is a noted Dumat worpshipper and whom ever spoke of stealing the light of God. I think the Chantry version is fairly valid as least as far as what is known now.

"The light. We sought the golden light. You offered... the power of the gods themselves. But it was... black... corrupt. Darkness... ever since. How long?"

Power of the gods, not the Maker. I don't think they had any interest at all in taking the power of the Maker... or even had any notion of one existing to begin with.

^This. Did the concept of the Maker even exist when the Magisters breached the Fade?

[Hellion Rex]

In Exile wrote...

Herr Uhl wrote...
There are still people contesting that the city was visible before becoming the black city, and that it being golden on the outside was just a rumor.

Yes, but DG outright confirmed that it was seen as Golden by people before the blight. Documents of that may even exist. It was in the same thread in the DA2 forums were he mentioned that the cult of the Maker predated Andraste. 

Where did he confirm that?

[In Exile]

eluvianix wrote...

Where did he confirm that?

It's a really old thread. Some poster wanted to talk about myth and religion in DA. I'm pretty sure it was pre-DA2 release. 

[Bleachrude]

The concept of the Maker existed before Andraste...it was simply called the "Cult of the Maker".

Secondly, every mage knew about the "golden city" beore the magisters since there are tevinter records stating "The golden city in the fade".

[Herr Uhl]

In Exile wrote...

Herr Uhl wrote...
There are still people contesting that the city was visible before becoming the black city, and that it being golden on the outside was just a rumor.

Yes, but DG outright confirmed that it was seen as Golden by people before the blight. Documents of that may even exist. It was in the same thread in the DA2 forums were he mentioned that the cult of the Maker predated Andraste. 

That doesn't cut it. I've brought up this post before, and people have said that "aware" was too vague to definitely say it was golden. Then we had the WoT thing where they put in black city instead of golden city as a typo which fueled the theories even further. They are built on that it wasn't a typo, but them mistakenly putting in a spoiler.

[Dean_the_Young]

Xilizhra wrote...

Fortunately for that tangent, however, we are not dealing with a legal document.

Indeed. We're dealing with an institution that should have no legal powerto begin with.

Funnily enough, I've frequently thought the same about you. Except the 'legal' part is unneccesary.