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Why would Organics forgive the Reapers if you choose Synthesis?


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#126
3DandBeyond

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Mdoggy1214 wrote...

For some reason I didn't think about this until now. I was always too busy concentrating on why Synthesis is wrong for other reasons, I didn't look at it from the most basic point of view. This to me just reinforces how incredible stupid and unbelievable the Synthesis ending is. There's is no way people would just automatically forgive and get along with beings who had just recently destroyed their homes and killed their families. I don't care if the effects of Synthesis is suppose to make them understand each other. I understand why Muslim Extremists suicide bomb the hell outta each other, doesn't mean I'm happy or agree with what they're doing.

It's such complete nonsense. How can anyone buy this scenario?  


I agree with this and it just shows that there seems to be endless new ways to look at it all and see that something doesn't make sense.

Even if we believe the reapers are just doing what they must do (because glow boy says so and in service to some overall idealistic goal from his perspective), it does not mean that people will just look at them with people goo inside of them and smile.  The same reasons for why Control would in my opinion and based on "human" nature end up badly, exist for Synthesis as well. 

I look at it like this-Charles Manson controlled his "family" and made them think it made sense to try and start Helter Skelter, to force a race war (reasons given that may or may not be true for the Tate/La Bianca murders).  He was found responsible and guilty for the murders, though no one could say he directly killed any of those he was charged with murdering.  His followers were rather blindly obedient and did horrific things, some more than others seemed to lack real independent will any more.  But they were still found guilty of murder-and Sharon Tate's family (as well as the others' families) didn't say "let them go, they're innocent" and want them out and free.

If someone points a gun at your head and tells you they will shoot if you don't kill and devour a friend of mine, I may understand that you had no choice but to do that.  It doesn't mean I want you as my neighbor--I won't be able to ignore the fact you devoured my friend.  Someone else might, but because people like me do exist and could not deal with it, it makes both Control and Synthesis real problems in the way they're presented.

The only way that Synthesis would not lead to the same conclusion (where people would find it impossible to accept the reapers as companions because they not only killed trillions but also because they used their bodies in such a horrid fashion) would be if Synthesis does lead to nanites that internally control organics.

Synthesis does 1 of 2 things--it cannot do both.

Either it A) uses tech internally to actually change people and to control them.  Or, B) it does not do this and merely is used to help them say medically (not as evidenced by Joker still limping) or in some other subtle ways-so it is not tech taking over.

For people to simply ignore what the reapers have done and what they have inside of them, A would have to be true.  For synthesis to matter and "fix" things in the way the kid wants, A would have to be true.  So, it becomes something I would not want to do, would not want to have happen-I can't see having Shepard suicide in order to let tech take over people internally. 

For B to be true, the case could be made that synthesis is pointless since it actually does nothing.  So then why have Shepard suicide for nothing?


Also, bottom line is forgiving is not forgetting.  Even in the case of some killer who is forgiven by a relative of someone they killed, forgiveness may be given.  But that doesn't mean they can forget and not want the guilty to pay.

Modifié par 3DandBeyond, 13 septembre 2013 - 01:59 .


#127
Slayer299

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OP, From what I understand, everyone supposed to be all understanding and happy now that they're all connected somehow. So i guess they all feel the Reapers weren't such bad critters after all or some such nonsense (to me at least).

Just look at the perfect, happy, fluffy, utopia world EDI goes on about...

#128
YourFleshIsMine

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3DandBeyond wrote...

Synthesis does 1 of 2 things--it cannot do both.

Either it A) uses tech internally to actually change people and to control them.  Or, B) it does not do this and merely is used to help them say medically (not as evidenced by Joker still limping) or in some other subtle ways-so it is not tech taking over.

For people to simply ignore what the reapers have done and what they have inside of them, A would have to be true.  For synthesis to matter and "fix" things in the way the kid wants, A would have to be true.  So, it becomes something I would not want to do, would not want to have happen-I can't see having Shepard suicide in order to let tech take over people internally. 

For B to be true, the case could be made that synthesis is pointless since it actually does nothing.  So then why have Shepard suicide for nothing?


Also, bottom line is forgiving is not forgetting.  Even in the case of some killer who is forgiven by a relative of someone they killed, forgiveness may be given.  But that doesn't mean they can forget and not want the guilty to pay.


Yeh, when I see all those races with the same green eyes, it's just indoctrination on the genetic level to me. Growth comes from struggle and by taking that away evolution stops. Utopian ideals are not to be achieved only to be aspired to. As Andre Gide said: believe those who seek the truth, doubt those who say they found it.

#129
AlexMBrennan

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For people to simply ignore what the reapers have done and what they have inside of them, A would have to be true

Not quite - the synthesis ending makes it quite clear that everyone now shares the knowledge of all the civilisations the Reapers have harvested over the millennia. Which means that those people who fought the Reapers will realise, thanks to the information they previously lacked, that the Reapers' actions were in fact necessary.

#130
Dextro Milk

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Drink the green koolaid, only way to enlighten yourself.

#131
In Exile

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AlexMBrennan wrote...
Not quite - the synthesis ending makes it quite clear that everyone now shares the knowledge of all the civilisations the Reapers have harvested over the millennia. Which means that those people who fought the Reapers will realise, thanks to the information they previously lacked, that the Reapers' actions were in fact necessary.


You know that this is very much actual horror? Becuase the reapers genocided hundreds of billions? And now apparently every single living being has extensive knowledge of the thousands of women, men and children that were melted alive in the most painfull and horrible way? 

#132
3DandBeyond

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YourFleshIsMine wrote...

3DandBeyond wrote...

Synthesis does 1 of 2 things--it cannot do both.

Either it A) uses tech internally to actually change people and to control them.  Or, B) it does not do this and merely is used to help them say medically (not as evidenced by Joker still limping) or in some other subtle ways-so it is not tech taking over.

For people to simply ignore what the reapers have done and what they have inside of them, A would have to be true.  For synthesis to matter and "fix" things in the way the kid wants, A would have to be true.  So, it becomes something I would not want to do, would not want to have happen-I can't see having Shepard suicide in order to let tech take over people internally. 

For B to be true, the case could be made that synthesis is pointless since it actually does nothing.  So then why have Shepard suicide for nothing?


Also, bottom line is forgiving is not forgetting.  Even in the case of some killer who is forgiven by a relative of someone they killed, forgiveness may be given.  But that doesn't mean they can forget and not want the guilty to pay.


Yeh, when I see all those races with the same green eyes, it's just indoctrination on the genetic level to me. Growth comes from struggle and by taking that away evolution stops. Utopian ideals are not to be achieved only to be aspired to. As Andre Gide said: believe those who seek the truth, doubt those who say they found it.


Exactly.  It is also a timeless truth that sometimes the having is not the same or even as good as the wanting.  It's why striving for some things we never achieve can actually result in good things we never sought.  And why learning is often about doing rather than just knowing.

As I see it evolution is not meant to be an end, it is meant to be the living being done as evolution occurs.  It's not geared toward the perfect (in our case) human, it's geared toward creating life (adapting it) that can exist as conditions change.

I'm reminded of I think it was an Outer Limits episode where kids started listening to one song on their MP3 players and it changed them--it had alien origins and actually turned their skin into a sort of metallic compound that blocked out harmful rays from the sun.  And the sun without warning was suddenly changing and would kill anyone that didn't have their skin changed.  I see evolution kind of like that.  The changes made to kids' skin wasn't to make them perfect or to change them and their wishes and desires, but to allow them to survive.

Synthesis is an effort by someone to control people or it does not serve the problem the kid was programmed to solve - what he even says it will solve.  It has to control people.  But further because seems based on doing this as some pinnacle of evolution, it's just a horrible notion.

#133
KaiserShep

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In Exile wrote...

AlexMBrennan wrote...
Not quite - the synthesis ending makes it quite clear that everyone now shares the knowledge of all the civilisations the Reapers have harvested over the millennia. Which means that those people who fought the Reapers will realise, thanks to the information they previously lacked, that the Reapers' actions were in fact necessary.


You know that this is very much actual horror? Becuase the reapers genocided hundreds of billions? And now apparently every single living being has extensive knowledge of the thousands of women, men and children that were melted alive in the most painfull and horrible way? 




That's the funny part. What meaningful information can one glean from a vast library of minds that all met their final moments being dissolved while screaming bloody murder in a tube?

#134
AlanC9

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In Exile wrote...

AlexMBrennan wrote...
Not quite - the synthesis ending makes it quite clear that everyone now shares the knowledge of all the civilisations the Reapers have harvested over the millennia. Which means that those people who fought the Reapers will realise, thanks to the information they previously lacked, that the Reapers' actions were in fact necessary.


You know that this is very much actual horror? Becuase the reapers genocided hundreds of billions? And now apparently every single living being has extensive knowledge of the thousands of women, men and children that were melted alive in the most painfull and horrible way? 


Hmmm.... so Synthesis means that everyone is forced to face the universe as it actually is, without being able to put unpleasant  stuff out of mind? That'd be awfully radical. I kinda like it.

#135
KaiserShep

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I imagine in that kind of universe, I wouldn't be able to claim that there's no such thing as hell anymore.

Modifié par KaiserShep, 13 septembre 2013 - 03:08 .


#136
N7recruit

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Because Bioware didn't want Synthesis, Control or Destruction choosers to be mad at them. Simple as that really. The EC was Basically " No matter what you picked you win & the Universe is not completely ****ed, Now Stop being mad at us!"

#137
AlanC9

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KaiserShep wrote...

I imagine in that kind of universe, I wouldn't be able to claim that there's no such thing as hell anymore.


Sure you could. Hell exists, and we're all in it.

(I cribbed that from this book. )

Modifié par AlanC9, 13 septembre 2013 - 03:23 .


#138
KaiserShep

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If it was truly hell, every radio station would become Justin Bieber, and Uwe Boll would be directing every movie until the end of time. Turn on the TV. Tommy Wiseau's The Room marathon is on!

#139
3DandBeyond

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KaiserShep wrote...

In Exile wrote...

AlexMBrennan wrote...
Not quite - the synthesis ending makes it quite clear that everyone now shares the knowledge of all the civilisations the Reapers have harvested over the millennia. Which means that those people who fought the Reapers will realise, thanks to the information they previously lacked, that the Reapers' actions were in fact necessary.


You know that this is very much actual horror? Becuase the reapers genocided hundreds of billions? And now apparently every single living being has extensive knowledge of the thousands of women, men and children that were melted alive in the most painfull and horrible way? 




That's the funny part. What meaningful information can one glean from a vast library of minds that all met their final moments being dissolved while screaming bloody murder in a tube?


Human history tells us that no matter what lessons are learned, what knowlege is known, there are those that will always repeat horrors that logically others in their right minds would seek to avoid or not do.

Knowing is not the same as doing.  People already know that shooting someone they love and killing them will make them sad, but it happens anyway.  The only sure way to stop this from happening is to remove free will-knowledge or even undertanding cannot compete with actions tied to free will.  We all do things that we know at heart are contrary to our best interests--we do them anyway.

If we only serve knowledge and only act based upon avoiding the bad things understanding tells us not to do, then heroes will not rush headlong into fires to save babies.  Good things will not be done out of some understanding that bad things can happen.  And cold calculation must replace the heart felt response.  It's knowing you might die and giving that far more weight than hoping you might achieve some good even if something bad happens to you.  That which makes up the human spirit that can lead to equal measures of great good and great bad, will be changed to only see things in some cynical light.  A program weighs the odds of a situation.  The human spirit or heart gives greater weight to the conscience and feelings associated with not at least trying, even when logic says you'll fail.

We have no idea based upon what we're given in the story, as to the nature of all those organic minds and all that knowledge stored within reapers.  But what we do have even now is history.  We know and understand enough now to be able to form judgements on many things, but we have hearts and intangible things that tell us to sometimes throw out that knowledge and understanding.

Synthesis and its explanation or reason for being a solution, must lead one to conclude it's meant to control things so choice is taken away when that tech concludes behavior goes against knowledge and cold calculation.  It would be horribly sad if this kind of thing were to happen.

It's like a page from the original Star Trek-the episode where two races are at war and there are constantly a lot of casualties.  But the Enterprise can't detect a war.  The "war" is now run by a computer simulation in response to a never-ending conflict that was messy.  The computer determines casualties and people submit to extermination chambers. 


The point is this kind of sterile thinking means that things can't change.  We're meant to make messes and meant to do greater things.  We're meant to make mistakes and try to right wrongs and to keep learning.  Knowledge isn't static and all that can be known is not known, but just knowing things does not always mean doing the right thing.  It means quite often learning to do better things by doing the wrong thing.  And forming relationships based upon how we learn and what we learn.

Modifié par 3DandBeyond, 13 septembre 2013 - 03:32 .


#140
FlyingSquirrel

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Because they know the Reapers weren't fully in control of their own actions, I would think. I doubt that a Synthesis scenario makes a secret out of the history with Catalyst and the Leviathans.

#141
AlexMBrennan

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And now apparently every single living being has extensive knowledge of the thousands of women, men and children that were melted alive in the most painfull and horrible way?

No, no, everyone now shares the "essence of the all those species" that came before them. Apparently, that's what makes them realise that the Reapers' actions, whilst brutal, were necessary.

#142
AlanC9

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AlexMBrennan wrote...

No, no, everyone now shares the "essence of the all those species" that came before them. Apparently, that's what makes them realise that the Reapers' actions, whilst brutal, were necessary.


Couldn't they just realize that, say, it was an honest mistake?

#143
AlexMBrennan

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No, because it is not possible for two rational agents with identical information to disagree

#144
AlanC9

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 I feel obligated to point out that most of the arguments here don't have much support in the text. The Catalyst, for instance, says that it's synthetics who will have their "understanding" altered, not organics. The (supposed) problem with organics is their physical inferiority compared to fully developed synthetics. In the Catalyst's interpretation the universe is like original D&D; synthetics have infinite advancement but organics are the races with level caps.

What's the actual case for organic consciousness being altered in Synthesis? What do we see?

#145
AlexMBrennan

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The Catalyst, for instance, says that it's synthetics who will have their "understanding" altered, not organics

The organics all start glowing greenish, so it's fairly safe to say that they have been altered in some way. Do you think that adding circuitry to all cells (ignoring for the moment that this makes very little sense) won't alter how we think and what we know? Source for my claims.

hat's the actual case for organic consciousness being altered in Synthesis? What do we see?

The point of this thread is kinda that the synthesis ending makes no sense unless organic consciousness is altered by synthesis.

Modifié par AlexMBrennan, 13 septembre 2013 - 06:46 .


#146
AlanC9

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AlexMBrennan wrote...
The organics all start glowing greenish, so it's fairly safe to say that they have been altered in some way. Do you think that adding circuitry to all cells (ignoring for the moment that this makes very little sense) won't alter how we think and what we know? Source for my claims.


 I imagine there would be changes. But such changes would be a side effect, not the purpose of the change.

hat's the actual case for organic consciousness being altered in Synthesis? What do we see?

The point of this thread is kinda that the synthesis ending makes no sense unless organic consciousness is altered by synthesis.


Right. I'm questioning the premise of the thread.  

Edit: I don't really want a derail, though. Threads with questionable premises can be fun too. 

Modifié par AlanC9, 13 septembre 2013 - 07:10 .


#147
YourFleshIsMine

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AlexMBrennan wrote...

No, because it is not possible for two rational agents with identical information to disagree


It is possible. Using reason and logic on the same information can lead to different conclusions.

#148
Iakus

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AlanC9 wrote...

What's the actual case for organic consciousness being altered in Synthesis? What do we see?


We don't see cheering soldiers on Earth

We see organics not holding a grudge against Reapers, despite the deaths of billions at their hands.  In fact, I see no objection at all to coexistence with the very creatures that did their utmost to exterminate them.

#149
Steelcan

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iakus wrote...

AlanC9 wrote...

What's the actual case for organic consciousness being altered in Synthesis? What do we see?


We don't see cheering soldiers on Earth

We see organics not holding a grudge against Reapers, despite the deaths of billions at their hands.  In fact, I see no objection at all to coexistence with the very creatures that did their utmost to exterminate them.

We see Wreav NOT starting a war

#150
MegaSovereign

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iakus wrote...

AlanC9 wrote...

What's the actual case for organic consciousness being altered in Synthesis? What do we see?


We don't see cheering soldiers on Earth

We see organics not holding a grudge against Reapers, despite the deaths of billions at their hands.  In fact, I see no objection at all to coexistence with the very creatures that did their utmost to exterminate them.


You see cheering in the Control ending, though. I think the lack of cheers in Synthesis is due to confusion.  

I think the epilogues are ambiguous enough to say that there could be many people who are only reluctantly dealing with the Reapers' presence.