557 réponses à ce sujet

[Willowhugger]

This is funny, people still worshiped Zeus/Odin/Thor/Poseidon because nature was beyond their comprehension. Or like you said, they laked information.

The Ancient Greeks worshiped them even knowing about nature and natural philosophy. Ditto modern day humans today. I think the whole idea of gods personifying natural forces is a bit of a discredited anthropological trope.



There's also modern day Nordic worshipers (not just Neo-****s or occultists) and Olympian worshipers.



But while I find this fascinating, shouldn't we discuss ME and HOW religion should be implemented (if at all?)

[Borschtbeet]

My understanding of religion is sufficient enough to understand that it's purpose is to explain things by pulling everything from your ass.

Yeah, I guess I forgot about the whole reincarnation thing with Buddhism. Let me retract what I said and rephrase it as saying that Buddhism is less full of crap than most religions, particularly the Abrahamic religions.



I haven't met any Buddhist who claims the universe is 6000 years old at least. Damn, now you got me defending a religion!

[Jonathan Shepard]

Dave of Canada wrote...

I don't mind religion, provided it isn't shoved into our face. I'm a catholic but when things go out of their way to provide religious examples and such, it's too much.

I was fine with Assassin's Creed 2, Ashley in Mass Effect (It was one line, I don't get why people think she's a zealot) and such. Yet I disliked the entire Bible Adventure games that came out on the super nintendo, I dislike anybody (regardless of faith or belief) that goes out of their way to pressure their beliefs on others.

Even told my grandfather to stop acting like an idiot when he was at an atheistic funeral and was telling them that the deceased were gone to hell for not following the "true god".

There were Bible Adventure games? Now, I'm Christian as well, but seriously? I'm curious as to how that would work... imagine a Mass Effect style game where you play as Jesus... that'd be cool. 
And yeah, it was one line, and no matter what it is, if it's shoved in your face, you hate it. Religion, any sexuality, politics, advertising, whatever. Even just a certain person. 

I'm a little sick of Tali threads. I'm just starting to come around to like Thane for his personality and traits, but his huge fanbase out of nowhere ticked me off at first.

Same with religion. If it's handled that the player can stumble across it, but it's not central to the game, I don't see the problem. I mean, if you read the first bits of ME: Revelation, the way Prothean tech affected religions was greatly insightful.

Atheists see religion crumble, and believers find ways to implement their beliefs into the game, depending on your perspective. That's what ME is. Your story. My story. One Shep could be Muslim, and another could be Confucian. It's all up to the player here, so I don't think there's a problem. 

[Yojimboo]

atheelogos wrote...

NICKjnp wrote...

Mr. Gerbz wrote...

The more advanced a species becomes, the more people of that species realize there is not some invisible guy they can blame for everything.

Religion is part of the human pysche.  It is our way of understanding the universe...

I could have sworn science was our way of understanding the universe, but I may have been mistaken . lol

What he means, it becomes a lot easier if you push everything into the hands of a omnipotent beeing. There are only answers, no questions.

[Willowhugger]

I could have sworn science was our way of understanding the universe, but I may have been mistaken /images/forum/emoticons/tongue.png. lol

By science, I think you mean philosophy.



LOL.

[atheelogos]

Eristik wrote...

SkullandBonesmember wrote...

T1l wrote...

can see it, hear it, touch it

This is the fallacy of atheism. Can you see your consciousness? Can you feel it? Can you hear it?

Difference is religion is asking for faith while atheists ask for facts.

Did you make that up or is that a quote? I like the way it was worded.

[Willowhugger]

I haven't met any Buddhist who claims the universe is 6000 years old at least. Damn, now you got me defending a religion!

Borschtbeet, there's idiots in every major group. I know plenty of atheists who are damn fools. Please understand that there's plenty of religious people, even Christians, who understand the universe is multi-billion years old and we were created from evolved primates.

Jonathan Shepard really hit the nail on the head though for how ME should be, I think.

Modifié par Willowhugger, 21 janvier 2010 - 01:11 .

[T1l]

Medhia Nox wrote...

Let's throw more philosophy into these games. I think it would lend to having more in depth NPCs and a more believable universe.

Absolutely. That was one of the things in Dragon Age that made it feel more alive. Belief systems were certainly in place, but none of them were without question - and usually you got to see both sides of the coin. Good writers will make their audience think.

[Borschtbeet]

poisonoustea wrote...

My understanding of religion is sufficient enough to understand that it's purpose is to explain things by pulling everything from your ass.

We are all very happy to hear your opinion on this. In case you don't have something more to say, could you please leave so others can talk? I hope you don't want to get this thread locked just because you're against religion.
That would be very uncivil. Thanks.

Fine, I'll leave.  Just wanted to let everyone know I hate religion and the people who follow it.

[Willowhugger]

But yes, I think that there's some cool stuff to do with religion in Mass Effect.



I think it should mostly be background though.

[Borschtbeet]

Willowhugger wrote...

I haven't met any Buddhist who claims the universe is 6000 years old at least. Damn, now you got me defending a religion!

Borschtbeet, there's idiots in every major group. I know plenty of atheists who are damn fools. Please understand that there's plenty of religious people, even Christians, who understand the universe is multi-billion years old and we were created from evolved primates.

Jonathan Shepard really hit the nail on the head though for how ME should be, I think.

Your post is partially true.

The true part is that yes sadly some atheist are idiots.  Ayn Rand cultists are particularly retarded and even worse than religious people in some ways.

The part where you're wrong is where you suggest that there are intelligent Christians.
This cannot be true because anyone who believes in a cosmic magician creating the universe is an idiot.  You can't get around that fact.

[Medhia Nox]

If athiests were really looking for "Just the Facts" though - they would have no need for any of the arts. Yet, I bet a great many of them enjoy how music, paintings, sculptures, theater, movies, and video games make them "feel". Yet - they cannot validate their feelings as "facts" to me.



There are athiests that believe thier pets "love" them. Not true - their pets are acting on a biological imperative.



Love, doesn't even exist - it is a complex series of chemical reactions driven by an impulse to reproduce.



----



Now, someone "could" say - that doens't make it "fake" and it doesn't change it's meaning.



Well, the Universe "Is" and it makes me "Feel" because I am in it - and I say it has caused feelings. That is as valid as an assertion of love.

[Borschtbeet]

Medhia Nox wrote...

If athiests were really looking for "Just the Facts" though - they would have no need for any of the arts. Yet, I bet a great many of them enjoy how music, paintings, sculptures, theater, movies, and video games make them "feel". Yet - they cannot validate their feelings as "facts" to me.

There are athiests that believe thier pets "love" them. Not true - their pets are acting on a biological imperative.

Love, doesn't even exist - it is a complex series of chemical reactions driven by an impulse to reproduce.

----

Now, someone "could" say - that doens't make it "fake" and it doesn't change it's meaning.

Well, the Universe "Is" and it makes me "Feel" because I am in it - and I say it has caused feelings. That is as valid as an assertion of love.

Blah blah blah...show me evidence that a cosmic magician created the universe.  Until then, you and all your fellow religious sheep are idiots.

[Willowhugger]

The part where you're wrong is where you suggest that there are intelligent Christians.
This cannot be true because anyone who believes in a cosmic magician creating the universe is an idiot.  You can't get around that fact.

As you wish, I'll wear my idiot hat and continue to believe that the origins of the universe rely on an intelligent force. Meh.  To each their own.

Thank you, I sincerely mean it, for participating in this conversation,.  It was good to have this discussion.

[NICKjnp]

atheelogos wrote...

NICKjnp wrote...

Mr. Gerbz wrote...

The more advanced a species becomes, the more people of that species realize there is not some invisible guy they can blame for everything.

Religion is part of the human pysche.  It is our way of understanding the universe...

I could have sworn science was our way of understanding the universe, but I may have been mistaken . lol

better wording would have been "our place in the" rather than "the".

So hopefully this is better for you:  Religion is part of the human psyche.  It is our way of understanding our place in the universe.

[RyuKazuha]

Medhia Nox wrote...

Borschtbeet - your understanding of religion is severely lacking.

Do you find that creating negative posts on a thread of people who are - for the most part - getting along and discussing something maturely to be a superior way of acting? Are you the advanced example by which we should all model ourselves after?

-----

The funny thing about Cartesian Doubt (Cogito Ergo Sum) "I think, therefor I am."

It was said in the Bible: God said, as the burning bush before Moses: "I am, that I am." The Bible stated that God/The Universe/Whatever - exists, because it is aware that it exists. I found this interesting.

Also, Descartes assumed that everything could be questioned - except for his "Evil Genius". Though, the question could be asked - why did he assume "The Evil Genius" was real? If he had doubted this creation of his - then his principle would have been flawed.

----

Which brings another topic up alongside religion.

Buddhism, Taosim, and Confucianism all started as philosophical concepts. Heck, even Hinduism really.

Then you've got Nichomacean Ethics, Kant's Critique of Reason, etc. etc.

Let's throw more philosophy into these games. I think it would lend to having more in depth NPCs and a more believable universe.

That would be cool for some of us IF made right, but honestly, introducing appropriate philosophy into a game is way more difficult than even introducing religion. I don't want to say, religion is less complicated at it's core, but religion can be scratched on the shell, not going into the depts, without making in meaningless. A plain approach on the Nichomacean Ethics or the Kants' Critiques (the Critique of Reason not being the only one) however will end in confusion, or even in disaster.

However, i think especially science fiction is able to make people think about some core points of philosophy, like anthropology and ethics in general. However, it's very risky to just scratch these themes, without giving the people the details they'd need to understand certain concepts. On the other side, i think not many would enjoy it to have an indept conversation about what makes the difference between sentient life and other lifeforms.

[Medhia Nox]

That was your rebuttal Borschtbeet?



And I, and my "religious sheep", are the ones who are closed minded to possibilities and change?



I think I'm beginning to understand better.

[atheelogos]

Willowhugger wrote...

Medhia surely you remember the good old times of when the church ruled don't you? The good old times that was the dark ages. There are too many other examples I could name, which I'm not going to do seeing as it would take a long time to type out and I and I want to keep this as short as possible, so I'll just say this. Whenever religion mixes with politics or government, the outcome was almost always bad, and is always very divisive when it needn't be. And that hurts the state as well as the church.

Secualrism keeps the church from turning governments int

Not to be rude, but I have a Masters degree in Medieval History. The Church didn't ever rule in the Middle Ages. It was a hand-in-pocket relationship with the secular feudal society that was constantly trying to beat down the other. The Church frequently was corrupt, but it also helped limit the power of the Feudal governments. Russia, until the 19th century, more or less showed what would happen if unchecked feudalism is left alone. The toothless Orthodox Church pretty much was unable to prevent a agrarian slave society from existing.

The Church also preserved what little scholarship, literacy, and university thought that existed during the Dark Ages.

Of course, modern theocracies include some pretty crappy ass examples, I will admit. However, the Taliban can be measured against North Korea.

Sry I should have claraifed in my post. Im didn't mean for it to sound general. I was talking about the stuff that happened in that period. Inquisition, Crusades ect. Really I was just refering to a point in time when the church had more power. Hope that clears it up.

[Borschtbeet]

Willowhugger wrote...

The part where you're wrong is where you suggest that there are intelligent Christians.
This cannot be true because anyone who believes in a cosmic magician creating the universe is an idiot.  You can't get around that fact.

As you wish, I'll wear my idiot hat and continue to believe that the origins of the universe rely on an intelligent force. Meh.  To each their own.

Thank you, I sincerely mean it, for participating in this conversation,.  It was good to have this discussion.

"Intelligent force" huh?  Nice euphemism.  I guess this cosmic magician aka "intelligent force" didn't require any "intelligent force" of it's own to come into being.

Religious people=promoting an "intelligent force" only when it's convenient.

[atheelogos]

wrexfan32hanalei wrote...

wouldnt it be awesome if scientology was proven true in 2180?

[Borschtbeet]

Medhia Nox wrote...

That was your rebuttal Borschtbeet?

And I, and my "religious sheep", are the ones who are closed minded to possibilities and change?

I think I'm beginning to understand better.

Yeah, I typically don't let people spin with philosophical mumbo jumbo about arts, paintings, music etc.  None of that is relevant.
My original point was that believing in a cosmic magician makes you stupid.  I gave you a chance to validate that belief and you instead tried to talk to me about paintings, and flowers. 

[Willowhugger]

"Intelligent force" huh?  Nice euphemism.  I guess this cosmic magician aka "intelligent force" didn't require any "intelligent force" of it's own to come into being.

Religious people=promoting an "intelligent force" only when it's convenient.

Actually, the science behind it, or the theory is basically that our current universe is one that is progressive only up until the point of the Big Bang.  Even in real quantum and spacial physics, time as we know it, did not exist before the Big Bang.  It simply does not exist as a relavent concept before the creation of reality.  Yet, there was something before it.

So nothing really needs to be created before the Big Bang because the Big Bang is when the concept of "when" is relevant.

Prior to the Big Bang, past/present/future (such as such concepts would exist) would all be bundled together because space/time are one.

Modifié par Willowhugger, 21 janvier 2010 - 01:23 .