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Discussion of religion in video games


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#401
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Stanley Woo wrote...

I'm not sure if it's been brought up already, but how do players here feel about the way religion was handled in Dragon Age: Origins--a fictional monotheism which could very easily be compared to real-world religions?

It is interesting and engaging? Does it seem preachy or modeled too closely on a real-world religion? Did you even notice? Did you want to learn more about it?

And to keep it on topic for the forum: What kind of religion system do you think would fit in well with the Mass Effect universe? What role would a modern-day Earth religion deity play for a space-faring, alien-meeting human?

And thank you all for keeping it mature and professional. I appreciate that.


I'm a pretty religious monotheist so I really appreciated the inclusion of a monotheistic religion that my character could believe in if they chose.  I also  have a degree in history so it became extremely obvious quite early that Thedas is very much inspired by medieval Europe.  Since Bioware did such a fantastic job of catching the feel of that era, I think it would have been impractical and almost silly to make Thedas society secular or polytheistic given the importance of monotheistic religions in Europe in the Middle Ages.  It made the setting much more dynamic and interesting.  The balance of course is to make sure that the storytelling doesn't "take sides."  Give players ample opportunities to say things like "I don't believe in the Maker" or "Stuff it, you religious wacko!"  I think Bioware succeeded in doing this very thing.  They don't take sides on the issue.  The player can hate the Chantry for good reason (persecution of mages, Exalted March on the elves, etc.) but they can also love it for good reasons (overthrow of Tevinter, stopping abominations, etc.)

However, I would have to say I don't want to see human religion touched on in Mass Effect.  Thedas is a made-up place completely removed from the real world, while Mass Effect is a fictionalized representation of OUR future.  If you made up a religion for humans, I would want to know why the old ones faded away which could raise some sensitive topics that would make people angry.  The implication that their religion would not survive the ages would tick them off, trust me.  If you portrayed an actual religion than people would start screaming "Why Islam and not Buddhism?" and so on.  I don't mind exploreing alien religions because they are just that :alien and I approve of vague spirituality as presented by Ashley.  Simple statements like "I believe in God" work fine but everything else is just inviting unneeded conflict.  One exception I might consider alright would be a human convert to some alien religion or an alien convert to some human religion.  (I think the codex said some turians had picked up Zen Buddhism.)  If you could really tie that to just the one character and explore it as their personal choice and personality without making sweeping generalizations I think it could work.  It would also be very interesting.

#402
Miko555

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Em23 wrote...

Superunkown wrote...

DaerogTheDhampir wrote...

Em23 wrote...

In a couple of hundred years, with more discoveries about the big bang, the origin of life and evolution sure to be made, I think it will become harder and harder for religion to find a place. I especially don't think it belongs on a large scale in the Mass effect universe, what with the discovery of alien species as well. Pockets of fanatics maybe.


Religion... OK IMO, mean no offense to anyone... Religion doesn't really have to be a source for answers of *the beginning*

Mainly, it's a source for understanding how things are, not scientifically but philosophically. Also, there is the metaphysical (thats the right word, right?) parts of it.

Religion will always find a place, why must everyone view it as Science vs Religion? This isn't the dark ages anymore. After all, it was a priest who came up with the concept of the big bang, and some scientist picked up on it and helped prove it.

Why not large scale? Doesn't stop the hanar or the believers of the Asari goddess. Even as a roman catholic, believing in evolution, the big bang, aliens (its most likely there is life, not just a single planet, even if its just bacteria), and following science is not conflicting with faith. I'm waiting for science to replicate or just prove the "God particle", Higs boson or w/e its called, I don't remember names well.



Read Genesis Enigma and the big bang theory was developed by a wait for it........CATHOLIC PRESIT by the name of Georges Lemaitre.

The bible and other religious texts that are prominant in the world today teach tolerence and good will. There is no evil in these texts but MAN finds ways to create evil.





I see nothing wrong with religions that are more like philosophies, but then they’re probably called philosophies not religions. Most religious beliefs directly contradict scientific theories, and the idea that faith – belief without evidence – is good, directly contradicts the scientific method.

Big bang vs God in 6 days, creation or ‘intelligent design’ vs evolution etc

As science continues to develop with new discoveries, it inevitably gets harder for religion to exist as it stays essentially the same regardless. 



Btw, the Higgs boson particle is hypothesised to explain why things have mass and the “God particle” is just a gimmicky name for it - nothing do with proving God exists.


Yeah, religion makes more sense in DA:O than mass effect i suppose... at least religion as we know it.

Modifié par Miko555, 21 janvier 2010 - 12:04 .


#403
tom.bleaker

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Arrtis wrote...

human religions sound very conceited from the perspective of an alien probably.

That's a pretty good point. We are all kind of assuming that aliens would have something we would recognize as "religion."  It is of course conceivable that human style belief, worship, and ritual is limited to our species. 

For example, an alien race with a non-linear concept of time might see questions of creation as nonsense. An alien race without social hierarchy or distinction (say intelligent amoebas) might think the idea of a "higher power" risible.  A lot of what we call religion is intimately dependent on our geographical location, our family background, our motor-sensory system, our cognitive capacities, our life cycle (birth to death), etc. An alien race without these might not have anything we would recognize as religion.

#404
Willowhugger

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Arrtis wrote...

human religions sound very conceited from the perspective of an alien probably.


Yeah, but the Turian faiths probably come off the same way to us.

I am surprised though by a lot of the reactions here.  No offense, but we already know about the Big Bang and evolution and so on.

Yet religion is still here, stronger than ever to be perfectly honest.  More people have a direct investment in religion than they ever did in the Middle Ages where it was just dictated down.

#405
pharos_gryphon

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Stanley Woo wrote...

I'm not sure if it's been brought up already, but how do players here feel about the way religion was handled in Dragon Age: Origins--a fictional monotheism which could very easily be compared to real-world religions?

It is interesting and engaging? Does it seem preachy or modeled too closely on a real-world religion? Did you even notice? Did you want to learn more about it?

And to keep it on topic for the forum: What kind of religion system do you think would fit in well with the Mass Effect universe? What role would a modern-day Earth religion deity play for a space-faring, alien-meeting human?

And thank you all for keeping it mature and professional. I appreciate that.


I found Dragon Age's handling of religion to be very well done.  It presented a viable concept while itself still being fallible.  The politics around it are what really drew me in over it, as it was very reminiscent of the Crusades, and the handling of Mages certainly brought to mind the Inquisition.

As to religions in Mass Effect, personally I would think that the Eastern Philosophy sorts would fit the best for a space faring civilization, Taoism in specific.  The emphasis on ways of thinking rather than specific deities would fit the times and constantly changing interactions with other races.  As to deities themselves, the idea of deities rather than actual deities would fill alot of spots in how we teach I'd imagine.  Zeus may not have a large follower base these days, but just about everyone knows his name and the concepts that have been attached with him.  Something similar to the 'Paragons' in Dragon Age could work well too.  The Egyptians believed that so long as we still remember a person, they live on.  It'd be easy to see that same line of reasoning carrying on into the future, even crews and a ship being associated with the ships' namesake. *shrugs* 

#406
Yootje

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Willowhugger wrote...

Arrtis wrote...

human religions sound very conceited from the perspective of an alien probably.


Yeah, but the Turian faiths probably come off the same way to us.

I am surprised though by a lot of the reactions here.  No offense, but we already know about the Big Bang and evolution and so on.

Yet religion is still here, stronger than ever to be perfectly honest.  More people have a direct investment in religion than they ever did in the Middle Ages where it was just dictated down.

I wouldn't say religion is 'stronger than ever'. How would you define that? It's not in percentage of believers: the number of atheists and agnosts is rising. It's not the legal power: in most Western countries, church and state are (supposed to be) seperated. It is not in social power: my grandmothers' parents still had a priest visit them when they had been married for a year and my great-grandmother wasn't pregnant yet, but there's not nearly enough priests now to keep such close tabs on the community. My grandfather was still of a generation where one of the sons (him) was supposed to become a priest: at least in my part of the world, that doesn't happen anymore. I could only imagine you mean that religion has become more personal as opposed to 'something you're just supposed to do'. 

Which is not to say I think there will be no religion in the future. I think there will be. Just that the percentage of religious people will steadily decline until perhaps a certain level. 

#407
Willowhugger

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I wouldn't say religion is 'stronger than ever'. How would you define that? It's not in percentage of believers: the number of atheists and agnosts is rising. It's not the legal power: in most Western countries, church and state are (supposed to be) seperated. It is not in social power: my grandmothers' parents still had a priest visit them when they had been married for a year and my great-grandmother wasn't pregnant yet, but there's not nearly enough priests now to keep such close tabs on the community. My grandfather was still of a generation where one of the sons (him) was supposed to become a priest: at least in my part of the world, that doesn't happen anymore. I could only imagine you mean that religion has become more personal as opposed to 'something you're just supposed to do'. 

Which is not to say I think there will be no religion in the future. I think there will be. Just that the percentage of religious people will steadily decline until perhaps a certain level. 


Sorry, part of my view is that our traditional view of the Middle Ages as a religious time is pretty much something that is inaccurate.  The populous was kept divorced from religious truths and mostly seperate from education. Compared to say, Islamic nations where literacy was encouraged, the actual number of people involved in religion was almost nonexistent.  Modern society includes vast amounts of chances for people to participate on a personal level with religion.

I forsee humanity to grow increasingly religious with no religions and spiritual forms of thought rising.  Hopefully more tolerant and encompassing variants.

#408
Yootje

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Willowhugger wrote...

Blabla, I wrote stuff. 


Sorry, part of my view is that our traditional view of the Middle Ages as a religious time is pretty much something that is inaccurate.  The populous was kept divorced from religious truths and mostly seperate from education. Compared to say, Islamic nations where literacy was encouraged, the actual number of people involved in religion was almost nonexistent.  Modern society includes vast amounts of chances for people to participate on a personal level with religion.

I forsee humanity to grow increasingly religious with no religions and spiritual forms of thought rising.  Hopefully more tolerant and encompassing variants.

Ah, I see, we're using different definitions. When you say 'stronger than ever' I assume an actual legal or social power over people's lives, which I think - regardless of how much people were actually invested in religion - the Church and its equivalents (I'm sorry, English fails me as to a collective term) had much more in earlier times.

#409
Malkavianqueen

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Stanley Woo wrote...

I'm not sure if it's been brought up already, but how do players here feel about the way religion was handled in Dragon Age: Origins--a fictional monotheism which could very easily be compared to real-world religions?

It is interesting and engaging? Does it seem preachy or modeled too closely on a real-world religion? Did you even notice? Did you want to learn more about it?

And to keep it on topic for the forum: What kind of religion system do you think would fit in well with the Mass Effect universe? What role would a modern-day Earth religion deity play for a space-faring, alien-meeting human?

And thank you all for keeping it mature and professional. I appreciate that.


I personally, liked the elven religion best in Dragon Age. ;) But, then again I'm Pagan! I also thought the Dwarven religion was very neat (and so never let that Dwarf involved with the Chantry get anywhere!). I liked that you provided alternatives, though I wish if you were another race(elven or dwarf) you would be able to explain more about your own religion to your companions instead of just being like, "Now who's that Andraste person again?" I liked that its very vague, so atheists and relgious types alike can pick and chose what they want their character to be like.

Mmm...Now Mass Effect wise? T__T In the origional it kind of creeped me out that Ashley was all, I believe in God but I'm a complete xenophobe! I like the Asari relgion best from what litle I've learned of it so far. It might be interesting to see humans trying to convert to alien religions. :)

#410
RogueAI

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I was hoping that the human race would have progressed from believing magical fairytales by the year 2100 whatever... Everything is based around science, yet there are still people in the universe who don't believe in facts and the truth. Would be nice to set Ashley straight, and get her to read a science textbook...

#411
handheld

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RogueAI wrote...

I was hoping that the human race would have progressed from believing magical fairytales by the year 2100 whatever... Everything is based around science, yet there are still people in the universe who don't believe in facts and the truth. Would be nice to set Ashley straight, and get her to read a science textbook...


Handheld thinks that just because its the 30942934980 doesnt mean that people are going to stop believing.

Handheld thinks that most people believe because it gives them hope and something to connect to.

Handheld himself also thinks that you cant "set ashley straight" as she never did anything wrong to begin with.

Handheld also thinks that Ashley reading a science fiction book would be pointless seeing how shes in a science fiction game.

#412
mortimoo

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this is gonna sound kinda offensive to some but its not intended to its just the way i see things:



i think religion was originally a way to explain the world: thunder storms, tornados, earthquakes, disease etc etc...2000 years ago im pretty sure all this stuff was crazy weird and scared the hell out of everybody and religion is basically an explanation of things, of the natural world and why we are here etc...



now its 2010 and we know what thunder is and what causes tornados..we understand disease we can cure alot of it. and we understand the concept of biology and evolution and organic life and i do get the impression from time to time when i do talk religion with certain religious people that alot of it today is flat out stubborn refusal to acknowledge that the world had progressed into the realm of logic and understanding and is beyond the need of rationalising and excuses.



quite frankly nobody likes to be proven wrong i know i dont its never a comfortable situation, and to have preached these things for so long i guess its kinda hard to let go.



im not at all saying religion is stupid here or flat out wrong, i guess im junst saying its not necessary anymore.



(this made alot more sense in my head before i typed it, if it doesnt make sense feel free to let me know and i will try and explain better what i mean)

#413
Yootje

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mortimoo wrote...

this is gonna sound kinda offensive to some but its not intended to its just the way i see things:

i think religion was originally a way to explain the world: thunder storms, tornados, earthquakes, disease etc etc...2000 years ago im pretty sure all this stuff was crazy weird and scared the hell out of everybody and religion is basically an explanation of things, of the natural world and why we are here etc...

now its 2010 and we know what thunder is and what causes tornados..we understand disease we can cure alot of it. and we understand the concept of biology and evolution and organic life and i do get the impression from time to time when i do talk religion with certain religious people that alot of it today is flat out stubborn refusal to acknowledge that the world had progressed into the realm of logic and understanding and is beyond the need of rationalising and excuses.

quite frankly nobody likes to be proven wrong i know i dont its never a comfortable situation, and to have preached these things for so long i guess its kinda hard to let go.

im not at all saying religion is stupid here or flat out wrong, i guess im junst saying its not necessary anymore.

(this made alot more sense in my head before i typed it, if it doesnt make sense feel free to let me know and i will try and explain better what i mean)

I guess people feel it is still necessary not because they wan't to know how the world works (except for sometimes very vocal religious minorities, most religious people accept scientific evidence for things), but for 'the big questions'. Do we have a purpose? How did the universe begin? What happens when we die? For me and other atheists, it's very natural to answer this with things like 'our purpose is what we make it' and 'when we die, we die', or even just 'don't know', but those aren't easy answers for everyone: some people find them downright scary. So, regardless of whether a particular religion is right or wrong, that is (I think) the reason why religion will be 'necessary' for some people at least for a long time to come.

Modifié par Yootje, 21 janvier 2010 - 05:43 .


#414
Tirigon

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Yootje wrote...

I guess people feel it is still necessary not because they wan't to know how the world works (except for sometimes very vocal religious minorities, most religious people accept scientific evidence for things), but for 'the big questions'. Do we have a purpose? How did the universe begin? What happens when we die? For me and other atheists, it's very natural to answer this with things like 'our purpose is what we make it' and 'when we die, we die', or even just 'don't know', but those aren't easy answers for everyone: some people find them downright scary. So, regardless of whether a particular religion is right or wrong, that is (I think) the reason why religion will be 'necessary' for some people at least for a long time to come.


1. Purpose in life =  having fun
2. It´s not yet known how the universe began, but as science progresses we shall eventually find out.
3. All of us will find it out soon enough, as everyone eventually dies.


I don´t understand why these answers can´t  be enough for everyone.

I admit they might not really be satisfying for all, but it´s definitely better than what is written in some weird holy scriptures.

#415
Yootje

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Tirigon wrote...

Yootje wrote...

I guess people feel it is still necessary not because they wan't to know how the world works (except for sometimes very vocal religious minorities, most religious people accept scientific evidence for things), but for 'the big questions'. Do we have a purpose? How did the universe begin? What happens when we die? For me and other atheists, it's very natural to answer this with things like 'our purpose is what we make it' and 'when we die, we die', or even just 'don't know', but those aren't easy answers for everyone: some people find them downright scary. So, regardless of whether a particular religion is right or wrong, that is (I think) the reason why religion will be 'necessary' for some people at least for a long time to come.


1. Purpose in life =  having fun
2. It´s not yet known how the universe began, but as science progresses we shall eventually find out.
3. All of us will find it out soon enough, as everyone eventually dies.


I don´t understand why these answers can´t  be enough for everyone.

I admit they might not really be satisfying for all, but it´s definitely better than what is written in some weird holy scriptures.

I didn't say scripture as it is understood by some groups now or was understood hundreds of years ago will survive. But I think a form of religion, possibly very disconnected from any particular current religion, will survive because like you and I both said, the answers non-religion gives to some questions are not satisfactory for everyone.

#416
Grumpy Old Wizard

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Kelrek wrote...

as education, science, and knowledge continue to grow, religion will diminish until it's nothing more than Greek myths.


Actually, the opposite is the case.

Athiests argued that the universe is eternal up until 1992 when the observations of the Hubble telescope and COBE sattelite proved the universe had a beginning.

Moreover, the laws of thermodynamcis make it clear the universe could not produce itself out of absolute nothing without a cause

The first cause had to be immaterial, timeless, spaceless, self-existant,  and intelligent. The same qualities that the Bible ascribes to God.

You are free to be an atheist. But don't pretend that science in any way backs up atheism becasue it simply does not.

I was hoping that the human race would have progressed from believing magical fairytales by the year 2100 whatever... Everything is based around science, yet there are still people in the universe who don't believe in facts and the truth. Would be nice to set Ashley straight, and get her to read a science textbook...


Yes, the delusional ranting fary tales of anti-theistic atheists can be quite laughable.

Modifié par Grumpy Old Wizard, 21 janvier 2010 - 06:23 .


#417
mortimoo

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well, thousands of years ago the greeks had there gods and the romans had theres...but these days the stories of there gods are nothing more than just interesting stories, people laugh at there sillyness of having a god of the ocean and a god of the sun etc, but OUR gods real oh yes, theres were nonsense but ours is absolute...i reckon in another few thousands years a whole other religion will be reading todays beliefs as fictional nonsense, but swear by there own gods...and so on an so forth..i doubt religion will ever truly dissapear but religions will come an go, they always have an i think they always will

#418
Yootje

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Grumpy Old Wizard wrote...

Kelrek wrote...

as education, science, and knowledge continue to grow, religion will diminish until it's nothing more than Greek myths.


Actually, the opposite is the case. [...] You are free to be an atheist. But don't pretend that science in any way backs up atheism becasue it simply does not.

I was hoping that the human race would have progressed from believing magical fairytales by the year 2100 whatever... Everything is based around science, yet there are still people in the universe who don't believe in facts and the truth. Would be nice to set Ashley straight, and get her to read a science textbook...


Yes, the delusional ranting fary tales of anti-theistic atheists can be quite laughable.

Please, this is supposed to be a discussion specifically on how religion is handled in video games, with focus on how you think religion is and/or should be handled in the ME universe. Don't respond to people who try and turn it into mudslinging.

On topic:
There's a video where Thane expresses religious beliefs. I am really interested in this, especially if he would have interactions with Ashley at some point down the line. Not to see them engaged in an all-out religious battle, but to see how each would handle the religiosity (... is that a word?) of the other. Would they be glad to find a fellow religious being? Would Ashley place more importance on it than Thane, since she seems to come from a background where religion is not the norm and Than probably comes from the Hanar homeworld? Would they try and convert each other? I know it's unlikely there will be detailed interactions between the two, and even if they do religion probably won't come up, but it's something to think about.

Modifié par Yootje, 21 janvier 2010 - 06:39 .


#419
Kelrek

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Actually, the opposite is the case.

Athiests argued that the universe is eternal up until 1992 when the observations of the Hubble telescope and COBE sattelite proved the universe had a beginning.

Moreover, the laws of thermodynamcis make it clear the universe could not produce itself out of absolute nothing without a cause

The first cause had to be immaterial, timeless, spaceless, self-existant,  and intelligent. The same qualities that the Bible ascribes to God.

You are free to be an atheist. But don't pretend that science in any way backs up atheism becasue it simply does not.





Just because we don't know how it happened, does not mean god made it happen....this is how religion began, to try to explain things that we didn't understand.

Modifié par Kelrek, 21 janvier 2010 - 06:34 .


#420
xtal84

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handheld wrote...
Handheld thinks that if there is a god and whatever his purpose may be Handheld wishes that if he must judge Handheld wishes him to do it for living his life as Handheld himself chose and not because  a book or someone else told him how to live it.


That is a nice way to put it.

I'm an atheist, and I act kindly towards others because that's how I would like to be treated in return. Not because a book told me to do it.

I thought the brief exchange on Ashley's religion was fine. I responded with the "I'm your commanding officer, not your moral compass" line. I hope the religious mythologies that were well laid out continue throughout the rest of Mass Effect. It can be an important part of a character's, or of an entire species', development.

I believe there should be allowance for more open discussion about it. I don't think religion should be on an untouchable pedestal simply because discussion about it can offend people.

Kelrek wrote...
Just because we don't know how it happened, does not mean god made it happen....this is how religion began, to try to explain things that we didn't understand.


Indeed. Where others find comfort in a book, I find comfort in the sheer wonder of the universe.

Modifié par xtal84, 21 janvier 2010 - 06:58 .


#421
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<a href="http://s904.photobuc...=the_bible.jpg" target="_blank"><img src="http://i904.photobuc.../the_bible.jpg" border="0" alt="Photobucket"></a>

Modifié par Bennyjammin79, 21 janvier 2010 - 06:55 .


#422
mortimoo

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xtal84 wrote:
I believe there should be allowance for more open discussion about it. I don't think religion should be on an untouchable pedestal simply because discussion about it can offend people.


exactly, to follow a religion blindly is dangerous, everything should always be open for debate, everything should be questioned. otherwise progress is never made and understanding is never truly achieved.

Modifié par mortimoo, 21 janvier 2010 - 07:00 .


#423
TheNecroFiend

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As someone who thinks religion and the supernatural is a load of BS I have no problems with religion in games. Seeing how religion has it's taint in the real world, it would be odd not to see it in a gameworld. I think Dragon Age did that really well. I enjoyed finding out more about the chantry and it's propaganda. However the exception is when the writers take it to seriously and are clearly trying to push an agenda.

Now with a character like Ashely I thought her faith went hand in hand with
her bigotry. It actually made her more memorable. Here you have person
who is surrounded by aliens and civilizations that have existed long
before man. Everything complelty destroys her theology yet she still
clings to her primitive beliefs. That I found fascinating. Her
ignorance and xenophobia had me face palming and talking back to the
screen. And as far as I'm concerned thats a good thing. It got me more engaged with the game.

#424
Murmakun

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Kelrek wrote...

Actually, the opposite is the case.

Athiests argued that the universe is eternal up until 1992 when the observations of the Hubble telescope and COBE sattelite proved the universe had a beginning.

Moreover, the laws of thermodynamcis make it clear the universe could not produce itself out of absolute nothing without a cause

The first cause had to be immaterial, timeless, spaceless, self-existant,  and intelligent. The same qualities that the Bible ascribes to God.

You are free to be an atheist. But don't pretend that science in any way backs up atheism becasue it simply does not.



Just because we don't know how it happened, does not mean god made it happen....this is how religion began, to try to explain things that we didn't understand.


That's how you THINK religion began.


To the OP: From my personal christian point of view I have no problem with religion or lack thereof in games. It is afterall just a game.

I would like to add that if religion IS added, it should fit the overall scheme of things.

#425
Dethateer

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Atheist, and I tend to get extremely annoyed (and therefore do stupid things like start useless arguments) when people make retarded arguments either for or against whatever god may be.

Oh, yeah, and to whomever made the message first quoted above this: You sir (or ma'm), are a complete and utter idiot.

Thank Thor you didn't try to involve thermodynamics in evolution, but please, for all that is holy, do some research into the big bang before criticising it. Oh, yeah, and if the universe couldn't have created itself (hint: it didn't, matter can't be created or destroyed, only converted into energy), what about your god?

Modifié par Dethateer, 21 janvier 2010 - 07:13 .