557 réponses à ce sujet

[Grumpy Old Wizard]

Dethateer wrote...

I'd be a lot more civil if I didn't hear the same retarded thing over and over and over. Lack of evidence for something doesn't mean that it exists, and therefore would require faith to NOT believe in. That's what you're saying. That god exist because there's no evidence against him.

Your reading comprehension skills appear to be quite poor. Please go back and reread my arguments so I don't have to repost them again and be accused of spamming.

Also, nice way of dodging the question. Newsflash: spirits? They aren't real either. Your consciousness is just a collection of chemical reactions and electrical impulses.

False claim, typical of anti-theistic "debate style."

I did not dodge any question. I pointed out that matter and energy are subject to the law of thermodynamics.

A spirit is not matter or energy and so is not subject to the laws of thermodynamics.

I'll repeat, the first cause had to be uncased. Self-existant. That wold seem to obvious even to a retarded peson, since you enjoy using that word.

The first cause had to be immaterial. Timeless, Spaceless. Self-existant. Intelligent. Powerful. The Bible happens to ascribe those attribetes to God.

As far as matter goes, it cannot be created or destroyed, only converted into energy. And there is absolutely no reason why energy (or matter) would require a beginning.
[

You seem to not be aware of entropy. Please google entropy and educate yourself.

[Grumpy Old Wizard]

Riona45 wrote...

Grumpy Old Wizard wrote...
Atheism is a religion according to the Supreme Courr and the 7th District Court. Google it. 

I just did.  I couldn't find what you are talking about.  Do you have any links?

http://www.wnd.com/n...RTICLE_ID=45874

A federal court of appeals ruled yesterday Wisconsin prison officials violated an inmate's rights because they did not treat atheism as a religion.
"Atheism is [the inmate's] religion, and the group that he wanted to start was religious in nature even though it expressly rejects a belief in a supreme being," the 7th Circuit Court of Appeals said.

The Supreme Court has said a religion need not be based on a belief in the existence of a supreme being. In the 1961 case of Torcaso v. Watkins, the court described "secular humanism" as a religion.

[Dethateer]

WHY is god timeless, spaceless, self-existent?
[edit] @ the above article: WAT. Yes, in that case, I disagree with the justice system. Especially the American one.

Modifié par Dethateer, 21 janvier 2010 - 08:29 .

[mortimoo]

lol ok grumpy old wizard if i may try to deviate slightly as to be quite honest this is starting ot get a bit grandios as i doubt any of us here have degrees or phd's in astro physics an whatnot...



so instead of looking at the facts which as i have stated quite frankly i doubt any of us fully graps the science of without running off to look things up every 2 seconds, would you be so kind as to go into the meaning for yourself, what is it about your faith that...well...that convinces you to be a member of the faith? in other words what is it about the texts of the bible that made you think "yea, that makes sense to me", why do you believe what you believe?



this is not a dig...even tho i think it sounds a bit like one lol

[TheNecroFiend]

I really wish that theists who used the law of thermodynamics actually knew what it was. Instead of just parroting some apologists flawed understanding of what it is.

[tom.bleaker]

Jzadek wrote...

Tirigon wrote...



Moreover, the laws of thermodynamcis make it clear the universe could not produce itself out of absolute nothing without a cause

The problem with this is that before a universe NOTHING could have existed, not time, not space, not gravity, not energy, so therefore not thermodynamical laws. Sorry about that.

Silly. Everybody knows "Magic man done it!"

[Dethateer]

Moar news, wiz: entropy has absolutely nothing to do with the decay of matter, or its transformation into energy, or whatever else.
Y'know wat?
Here, knock yourself out:

Modifié par Dethateer, 21 janvier 2010 - 08:37 .

[Riona45]

Grumpy Old Wizard wrote...



http://www.wnd.com/n...RTICLE_ID=45874

All you have is a tiny news article from World Net Daily?  Not very substantial, but I give you credit for trying.

I love the ads for the "Crisis Garden" products, though!  Get off the grid as soon as possible, people, or you'll starve to death!

Modifié par Riona45, 21 janvier 2010 - 08:37 .

[TheNecroFiend]

Grumpy Old Wizard wrote...

Riona45 wrote...

Grumpy Old Wizard wrote...
Atheism is a religion according to the Supreme Courr and the 7th District Court. Google it. 

I just did.  I couldn't find what you are talking about.  Do you have any links?

http://www.wnd.com/n...RTICLE_ID=45874

A federal court of appeals ruled yesterday Wisconsin prison officials violated an inmate's rights because they did not treat atheism as a religion.
"Atheism is [the inmate's] religion, and the group that he wanted to start was religious in nature even though it expressly rejects a belief in a supreme being," the 7th Circuit Court of Appeals said.

The Supreme Court has said a religion need not be based on a belief in the existence of a supreme being. In the 1961 case of Torcaso v. Watkins, the court described "secular humanism" as a religion.

Umm.... secular humanism does not equate athiesm. Athiesm is simply the lack of belief in a god. Wheras secular humanism has it's own worldview. True secular humanist  are generaly athiest, but so are budhists.

[Jzadek]

Dethateer wrote...


 
In the past 100 years atheists cush as Mao, Pol Pot, Stalin, Lenin, ect have been responsible for the deaths of over 250 million people. Far, far more than all other religions combined for all of recorded history. Atheism is a dangerous religion indeed when it gains political power.

That's being selective, and untrue. Christian dictators include Hitler, Mussolini and Henry 8, and the rest of the tudors. Europeans butchered native amercans in the name of god. During the crusades, millions died at the will of the pope. People in Africa today die of AIDS in their millions, and many of them because the pope telling them contraception is evil. The middle east is caught in a series of ongoing wars predominmantly due to religious differences. The turks killed thousands of Byzantines in the name of their god. The Lords Resistance Army in the horn of Africa tortures and kills children and adults in horrible ways, starving them, poisoning water supplies, and doing other things to sick to even write down. The Islamic Sudanese Government sends Janjaweed mercenaries to kill the Christian southerners, and drive them into neighbouring countries where the population becomes too high to live properly.

I think that easily surpasses your '250 million, don't you?

[Riona45]

Dethateer wrote...

WHY is god timeless, spaceless, self-existent?
[edit] @ the above article: WAT. Yes, in that case, I disagree with the justice system. Especially the American one.

It's a tiny news article from a rather dubious source.  No real detail on the case in question, and the bulk of the article, which isn't much, consists of one quoted person's opinion.

Modifié par Riona45, 21 janvier 2010 - 08:46 .

[Tirigon]

Grumpy Old Wizard wrote...

Dethateer wrote...

@Mortimoo
Incidentally, christianity happens to be responsible for most of the horrible stuff that happened during the middle ages. Not saying the muslims just sat there and were the innocents, but Jehova's servants did more crap, and still do. All while conviniently forgetting that Jesus only wanted everyone to be nice to each other.

Actually, that is untrue. I'm not Catholic and don't presume to defend all the the crusades but certainly the first crusades were in response to Musims invading predominately Christian lands.
 
In the past 100 years atheists cush as Mao, Pol Pot, Stalin, Lenin, ect have been responsible for the deaths of over 250 million people. Far, far more than all other religions combined for all of recorded history. Atheism is a dangerous religion indeed when it gains political power.

Of course, no person who is a real Christin hates or murders anyone. 
1Jn 3:15 Whosoever hateth his brother is a murderer: and ye know that no murderer hath eternal life abiding in him.

It is interesting how in any discussion of religion in a game setting anti-theistic atheists always bring their hatered for religion into the discussion and misrepresent history.

Actually, it´s the Catholics who misrepresent history. Crusades were NOT revenge (which Jesus would condemn, too, btwB)) but attacks.

Mao, Pol Pot etc... did not commit their crimes because of atheism but because they were cruel, idiotic dumbasses, and Atheism is NEVER a religion, nor is it about politics.

Last but  not least: Yes, a true Christian should not kill others for his faith. Funnily this did never prevent Crusaders, Inquisitors and fundamentalist madmen from doing so. Imo this makes religion just the more ridiculous and despiceable.

[Metro Kid]

I thought religion was handled well in Dragon Age. Each race had it's predominate doctrine and within some there was also secondary religions (or cults if you prefer), like the Dwarf who followed the Marker or the cult of dragon worshipers in the Sacred Ashes quest.



For the Mass Effect Universe, I'd like to encounter more diversity on different worlds and areas where many races are gathered together. Alien religions should reflect their cultural ideals and I think that a scattering a various 'real-world' beliefs among the humans would be a nice touch.



I'd like to find planets that have been settled by Christians, Jews, Muslims, Buddhists, ect. I mean birds of a feather flock together. I'd assume people with similar beliefs would settle plants together, and be drawn to already settled planets with environments which encouraged their own views. Plus it would make the planets feel more like different countries with different cultures, rather than all being simple colonies.

[Riona45]

Jzadek wrote...

Dethateer wrote...


 
In the past 100 years atheists cush as Mao, Pol Pot, Stalin, Lenin, ect have been responsible for the deaths of over 250 million people. Far, far more than all other religions combined for all of recorded history. Atheism is a dangerous religion indeed when it gains political power.

That's being selective, and untrue. Christian dictators include Hitler, Mussolini and Henry 8, and the rest of the tudors. Europeans butchered native amercans in the name of god. During the crusades, millions died at the will of the pope. People in Africa today die of AIDS in their millions, and many of them because the pope telling them contraception is evil. The middle east is caught in a series of ongoing wars predominmantly due to religious differences. The turks killed thousands of Byzantines in the name of their god. The Lords Resistance Army in the horn of Africa tortures and kills children and adults in horrible ways, starving them, poisoning water supplies, and doing other things to sick to even write down. The Islamic Sudanese Government sends Janjaweed mercenaries to kill the Christian southerners, and drive them into neighbouring countries where the population becomes too high to live properly.

I think that easily surpasses your '250 million, don't you?

I agree, but you're quoting the wrong person, just so you know...

Modifié par Riona45, 21 janvier 2010 - 08:50 .

[Tirigon]

Grumpy Old Wizard wrote...

Tirigon wrote...

You know, it might be ignorant to say "God is a lie". But as far as we know there is NO god, so I think it is better to assume there is none. Should science ever find out there is a god, I will change my attitude. But as long as there is no proof I won´t belief in one, that simple.

You say that things about the Universe that aren´t known so far are a proof for god. That´s first Century a.D. thinking.
2000 years ago theists said: "We can´t explain thunder, so Zeus must throw thunderbolts! Gotcha! We know!"
Today´s theists say: "We can´t explain how the universe / life / whatever came into existence, so GOD must have done it! We know!"
Same stupid way of thinking.

Atheists always love to call everyone else stupid but it their own irrational religion that is stupid.

The laws of thermodynamics are very clear that the universe could not have produced itself. Feel free to reject science if you wish.

You claim future science will prove the universe could produce itself out of absolute nothing without a cause. You are entitled to your faith. But curent science is on the side of thesim and and shows atheism to be irrational.

The atheists up till 1992 who claimed the universe is eternal were certainly proven wrong and the theistic position that the univese had a beginning was proven correct. :happy:

I did NOT reject science, theism does. God is in no way proven. The fact that we do not yet know how the universe came into existence does not prove god is necessary.

Let´s compare with diseases: 500 years ago one did not know about virusses and all, one couldn´t explain how diseases were spread.
A theist would have claimed Satan and his witches did it (or the jews), leading to inquisition, murder of jews etc...
Now we know that´s just Bullsh*t.
It will be the same with the universe.

[tom.bleaker]

Tirigon wrote...

Last but  not least: Yes, a true Christian should not kill others for his faith. Funnily this did never prevent Crusaders, Inquisitors and fundamentalist madmen from doing so. Imo this makes religion just the more ridiculous and despiceable.

Pope Urban II granted crusaders a "get out of sin free card" for crusading. 

[Tirigon]

Grumpy Old Wizard wrote...

The US courts have said atheism is a religion and atheists take things on faith that they can't prove. Religion.

I hear most americans are religious and stupid.

You don't have to meet in a church building to belong to a religion.

God is not matter or energy and thus is not subject to the laws of thermodynamics. God is a spirit.

It is obvious there could not be an infinite regression of causes. The first cause, the uncaused cause, had to be immaterial, timeless, spaceless, self-existant, and intelligent. God.

Spirits do most probably not exist.
If there is no cause without cause, God can´t exist as he has no cause.

[Tirigon]

Jzadek wrote...

Tirigon wrote...



Moreover, the laws of thermodynamcis make it clear the universe could not produce itself out of absolute nothing without a cause

The problem with this is that before a universe NOTHING could have existed, not time, not space, not gravity, not energy, so therefore not thermodynamical laws. Sorry about that.

That´s from Grumpy Wizard, not from meB)

[mortimoo]

tom.bleaker said:

Pope Urban II granted crusaders a "get out of sin free card" for crusading.



this is true and SO messed up, i thought the ten commandments were like the absolute golden unbreakable rules...and im pretty sure thou shalt not kill is one of them, and it says thou shalt not kill, not thou shalt not kill unless it makes things more convenient, or thou shalt not kill other christians to f*** the rest there fodder...it says thou shalt not kill. period...its atrocious that the church all throughout history have ignored there own rules and essentially slapped there own gods in the face by paying no attention what so ever to the actual teachings and focusing on the "superiority" of there faith

[Riona45]

Tirigon wrote...

Grumpy Old Wizard wrote...

The US courts have said atheism is a religion and atheists take things on faith that they can't prove. Religion.

I hear most americans are religious and stupid.

Can we not go here?  Please see my comments about the link in question.  It's from a very small, not very detailed article from a dubious and over-the-top news source.  The article is very vague and consists mostly of one quoted person (an opinion, nothing from an official court document) saying atheism is very definitely a religion.  There isn't even any information about where the incident took place or what kind of group the prison inimate wanted to start.

I'm looking for statements from the SCOTUS saying that atheism is "very definitely a religion", and I am not finding them.

Modifié par Riona45, 21 janvier 2010 - 08:57 .

[Tirigon]

tom.bleaker wrote...

Tirigon wrote...

Last but  not least: Yes, a true Christian should not kill others for his faith. Funnily this did never prevent Crusaders, Inquisitors and fundamentalist madmen from doing so. Imo this makes religion just the more ridiculous and despiceable.

Pope Urban II granted crusaders a "get out of sin free card" for crusading. 

I know. Thanks for proving me rightB)

[Tirigon]

Riona45 wrote...

Tirigon wrote...

Grumpy Old Wizard wrote...

The US courts have said atheism is a religion and atheists take things on faith that they can't prove. Religion.

I hear most americans are religious and stupid.

Can we not go here?  Please see my comments about the link in question.  It's from a very small, not very detailed article from a dubious and over-the-top news source.  The article is very vague and consists mostly of one quoted person (an opinion, nothing from an official court document) saying atheism is very definitely a religion.  There isn't even any information about where the incident took place or what kind of group the prison inimate wanted to start.

I'm looking for statements from the SCOTUS saying that atheism is "very definitely a religion", and I am not finding them.

Yes, I read it.

I was just trying to argue on Wizards level. When talking to Theists you sometimes need to scale down a bit. A little like when you talk to a child of 10 years (up to this age I believed in God myself, before I became able to see all the contradictions in Christian Faith).

[TheNecroFiend]

It's been my experiance that the people who use the phrase "true christian" are generally anti-catholic. So whatever a pope does or says has no bearing on their argument.

[Riona45]

Tirigon wrote...

Yes, I read it.

I was just trying to argue on Wizards level.

Understood.

[Tirigon]

TheNecroFiend wrote...

It's been my experiance that the people who use the phrase "true christian" are generally anti-catholic. So whatever a pope does or says has no bearing on their argument.

Not even the pope has more say than the Ten Commandments.
Even less so for a Christian, as the Ten Commandments are supposed to come directly from God, while the pope is only Jesus´ placeholder. Quite a high rank, but definitely not enough to ignore God´s command, right?