557 réponses à ce sujet

[tom.bleaker]

TheNecroFiend wrote...

It's been my experiance that the people who use the phrase "true christian" are generally anti-catholic. So whatever a pope does or says has no bearing on their argument.

Is that like saying "True Norwegian Black Metal"?
Wow... this thread is tangenty...

[Tirigon]

tom.bleaker wrote...

Is that like saying "True Norwegian Black Metal"?
Wow... this thread is tangenty...

I know a few TRUE (YES, even TRVE!!!!) Norwegian Black Metal songs. You know, Burzum and the likes....

I don´t like them though.

The "heretic" Black / Extreme metal by Cradle of Filth, recent Dimmu Borgir stuff etc... is a hell of a lot better.

Being "trve" only limits you: You may NEVER like a song that is liked by more than 30 people ON THE ENTIRE WORLD!!!

[TheNecroFiend]

Tirigon wrote...

tom.bleaker wrote...

Is that like saying "True Norwegian Black Metal"?
Wow... this thread is tangenty...

I know a few TRUE (YES, even TRVE!!!!) Norwegian Black Metal songs. You know, Burzum and the likes....

I don´t like them though.

The "heretic" Black / Extreme metal by Cradle of Filth, recent Dimmu Borgir stuff etc... is a hell of a lot better.

Being "trve" only limits you: You may NEVER like a song that is liked by more than 30 people ON THE ENTIRE WORLD!!!

Heh

[Tirigon]

TheNecroFiend wrote...

Heh

Ha?

[TheNecroFiend]

Tirigon wrote...

TheNecroFiend wrote...

Heh

Ha?

Haha!

[Tirigon]

TheNecroFiend wrote...

Haha!

Like short words.

[tom.bleaker]

Tirigon wrote...

I know a few TRUE (YES, even TRVE!!!!) Norwegian Black Metal songs. You know, Burzum and the likes....

I don´t like them though.

The "heretic" Black / Extreme metal by Cradle of Filth, recent Dimmu Borgir stuff etc... is a hell of a lot better.

Agreed.  DB is supposed to be putting out an new album this year. SQUEEEEEEEEE!

[tom.bleaker]

Anyways, we should probably put this thread back on track.

Any unshared thoughts about the main topic? (i.e. religion in games)

[Grumpy Old Wizard]

Dethateer wrote...

WHY is god timeless, spaceless, self-existent?
[edit] @ the above article: WAT. Yes, in that case, I disagree with the justice system. Especially the American one.

1) Because the space-time continuim came into being in an instant. God existed before space, time, matter or energy. God is spaceless, timeless, and immaterial.

lol ok grumpy old wizard if i may try to deviate slightly as to be quite honest this is starting ot get a bit grandios as i doubt any of us here have degrees or phd's in astro physics an whatnot...

so instead of looking at the facts which as i have stated quite frankly i doubt any of us fully graps the science of without running off to look things up every 2 seconds, would you be so kind as to go into the meaning for yourself, what is it about your faith that...well...that convinces you to be a member of the faith? in other words what is it about the texts of the bible that made you think "yea, that makes sense to me", why do you believe what you believe?

I guess sceince is refuting basic tenents of atheism a little too much for you eh? Ok, you asked for my testimony so don't accuse me of preaching or evangelizing.

Ok, I was raised by Baptist parents. My own spiritual awakening began when I was about  7 years old. I began to understand that I was a sinner in need of forgiveness. When I reached about the about 10 I felt the need to be baptized in response to the gospel of Christ.  I have studied the Bible extensively since that time.

By the way, my parents never pressured me to repent or to be baptized.

When I reached about the age of 19 my baby sister had scholiosis. One of her legs was shorter than the other and her spine was curved. She was getting worse. She had to wear inserts in one of her shoes becasue of the short leg and was going to start having to wear braces. She was very upset as any young teenage girl would be.

A Pentecostal couple (not ministers) heard about my sister (we lived in a small town) and asked to come pray for her. They gave my parents referenceds of people they had prayed for who had been healed. My parents called and talked to the people and then allowed the couple to come pray for my sister. When they laid hands on her and prayed, my sister was instantly healed. Her leg grew out, her spine straigtened out and her pains disappeared. Very sooon afterwards she joined the basketball team and became the starting point guard.

Of course some atheists will call me a liar, but so what? You asked for a personal testimony. I have seen and experienced many other miracles since then.

That shook my theological world because I had been taught that miracles had ceased with the death of the last apostle. As I went back and stidied through the book of Acts and the epistles I saw that the gifts of the Spirit were to be "to all generations." I received the "Spirit of God and speak in tongues. I'm sure I'll catch more flack for being a "tongue talker" but so what, you asked for  a testimony, right?

So I study the Bible and the Spirit of God witnesses to my spirit that it is true.  There is also extraordinary interrelations betwwen the various books of the Bible that were written centuries apart.

Also, I have the history surrounding the Bible quite extensively. The Bible has many thousands more manuscripts supporting it than any other ancient document. If any ancient document can be considered a historical document so too must the Bible.

[TheNecroFiend]

Grumpy Old Wizard wrote...
1) Because the space-time continuim came into being in an instant. God existed before space, time, matter or energy. God is spaceless, timeless, and immaterial.

Prove it.

Edit: Prove the first part obviously.

I agree that your god is spaceless, timeless and immaterial. Just as any other diety or supernatural being/force/creature is.

Modifié par TheNecroFiend, 21 janvier 2010 - 09:30 .

[Yootje]

You know what, I really liked this topic before this war... but screw it, this discussion won't die down anymore and the topic will get locked anyway.

Grumpy Old Wizard wrote...
Also, I have the history surrounding the Bible quite extensively. The Bible has many thousands more manuscripts supporting it than any other ancient document. If any ancient document can be considered a historical document so too must the Bible.

So, which Bible are we talking about? Though not religious, I'm partial to the Codex Sinaiticus, which is the oldest version of the New Testament so arguably the most trustworthy as it was written closest to Jesus' life. It also has the added advantage of not containing any of the following passages: http://wapedia.mobi/...odex_Sinaiticus 

[Tirigon]

@ Grumpy Wizard:



It´s funny you actually read the bible and still believe in God. Starting to read the bible and knowing a bit of history about it was one of the main reasons (if not even THE main reason) why I abandoned Christianity.



About the miracle you told: Well, why not? It´s a known fact healing by laying hands on the patient is a scientifically proven phenomena. It does in no way prove the existence of any divine entity.

It has also been proven that prayers can - depending on the patient´s personality - be useful (e.g. by healing a disease) not affect him at all or even damage him and make his disease worse.

[RoninOmega]

I'm christian(I belive in protestant and catholic views, as of now I can't decide which one I'm truly on with) and extremely fine with games, and religion is ok, so long as your not a fanatic me thinks

Me myself, I don't go religious gaga over video games, as it's only a video game, and shouldn't be viewed as touchy on religion imo, but people still do it...  same thing with a movie, I don't watch harry potter  but my friend who's really religious, I couldn't take his complaints anymore and told him that it was only a movie, and that he should get a life, lol...(in reality it was a long discussion, but it got through him eventually, now he thinks the same as me, I cleansed tha fanaticism in him!  )


So yeah, religious, but no fanaticism, infact, I'm very anti-fanaticism.

[Dethateer]

Besides the fact that you didn't answer why god is spaceless, timeless and whatever ("he was there" ain't an answer, it doesn't explain WHY he was there, and "because someone had to be" isn't an argument), let's assume (that is, ASSUME) that someone DID exist before everything, and created everything. Why the christian god?
Also, the universe isn't exactly a closed system, for your termodynamic misunderstanding to happen.
It's... y'know... floating in an endless void. I.e. plenty of space for energy to dissipate into, since there's nothing preventing it from bleeding out (well, except for the speed of light, but the energy still isn't sent back to the universe, it just keeps going).

Modifié par Dethateer, 21 janvier 2010 - 09:39 .

[TheNecroFiend]

Tirigon wrote...

About the miracle you told: Well, why not? It´s a known fact healing by laying hands on the patient is a scientifically proven phenomena. It does in no way prove the existence of any divine entity.
It has also been proven that prayers can - depending on the patient´s personality - be useful (e.g. by healing a disease) not affect him at all or even damage him and make his disease worse.

Are you trying to be sarcastic? Where has laying of hands been proven scientifically?

[Riona45]

Grumpy Old Wizard wrote...
Ok, I was raised by Baptist parents. My own spiritual awakening began when I was about  7 years old. I began to understand that I was a sinner in need of forgiveness. When I reached about the about 10 I felt the need to be baptized in response to the gospel of Christ.  I have studied the Bible extensively since that time.

By the way, my parents never pressured me to repent or to be baptized.

It's probably not a coincidence that a child raised by Baptist parents would have a (Christian) spiritual awakening, study the Bible and feel the need to repent and be baptized.

[pharos_gryphon]

It's worth noting also that assuming science were to prove the existence of some manner of higher order or planned method to creation, that does -not- mean that it's the Christian god in particular. Furthermore, the Bible could no more be considered a historical document than any other religious work, many of which predate the Bible, which has its own inconsistencies besides and unlike a text from BCE, has been edited time and again as it was retranslated and revised, not even bringing into account the actual compiling of it well after Christ's supposed death. I'm not saying that as a jibe against Christianity... I find the Christian mythology extremely interesting in fact, but rather that while being a dominant religion, it's not the only one nor is it any more valid than any other. My point is that it's not an Athiest vs. Christianity issue.



All that aside... We started out with a really interesting and good topic, let's not derail it into a flame war and get it locked down, yeah?

[tom.bleaker]

pharos_gryphon wrote...
All that aside... We started out with a really interesting and good topic, let's not derail it into a flame war and get it locked down, yeah?

Agreed.

[Tirigon]

TheNecroFiend wrote...


Are you trying to be sarcastic? Where has laying of hands been proven scientifically?

I admit that I don´t remember the exact stuff, so don´t ask me for links or so, but such things have been observed by scientists who are (supposedly) trustworthy and, well, interested in science, not religion, and it happened so often that you can´t simply call it a lie. It´s not yet known, however, HOW exactly it works.
In many cases scientists suspect that it´s simply the Placebo effect.

[RoninOmega]

Yootje wrote...

You know what, I really liked this topic before this war... but screw it, this discussion won't die down anymore and the topic will get locked anyway.

Grumpy Old Wizard wrote...
Also, I have the history surrounding the Bible quite extensively. The Bible has many thousands more manuscripts supporting it than any other ancient document. If any ancient document can be considered a historical document so too must the Bible.

So, which Bible are we talking about? Though not religious, I'm partial to the Codex Sinaiticus, which is the oldest version of the New Testament so arguably the most trustworthy as it was written closest to Jesus' life. It also has the added advantage of not containing any of the following passages: http://wapedia.mobi/...odex_Sinaiticus 

me myself prefer the old, imo the new testament is full of modifications, you cannot even trust the real words, from what some fanatic just wrote in there(e.g. sex is a sin, homosexuality is a sin, going to hell for little things, cannot be forgiven if you kill someone, you go to hell for lack of reading the bible...  all total bs and is not following the true faith IMO)

tirigon wrote...

@ Grumpy Wizard:



It´s funny you actually read the bible and still believe in God. Starting to read the bible and knowing a bit of history about it was one of the main reasons (if not even THE main reason) why I abandoned Christianity.



About the miracle you told: Well, why not? It´s a known fact healing by laying hands on the patient is a scientifically proven phenomena. It does in no way prove the existence of any divine entity.

It has also been proven that prayers can - depending on the patient´s personality - be useful (e.g. by healing a disease) not affect him at all or even damage him and make his disease worse.

replying to the bottom, ONLY IF YOU WERE SARCASTIC, IF NOT, DON'T QUOTE ME but, praying or having crosses around have actually helped in some way, it's just good luck...  it's experience,  no need to verbally abuse people who does it...  not all christians are religious doomsayers...  lol  I don't see buddhism being trashed on, so correct me if im wrong, but some atheists are no longer atheists, instead, their anti-christians, which I think falls in the fanaticism category, and I don't support bashing religions...  no matter what you believe in.

Oh well, I knew this thread was going to hell(don't quote me on this as a religious quote I swear ), even a thread handheld made cannot take the unstable fight about religion, oh well...  handheld can do way more things anyways me thinks

and I agree, this thread was working out real nice until the real small religious crusade came in...  

Modifié par RoninOmega, 21 janvier 2010 - 09:44 .

[RoninOmega]

Tirigon wrote...

TheNecroFiend wrote...


Are you trying to be sarcastic? Where has laying of hands been proven scientifically?

I admit that I don´t remember the exact stuff, so don´t ask me for links or so, but such things have been observed by scientists who are (supposedly) trustworthy and, well, interested in science, not religion, and it happened so often that you can´t simply call it a lie. It´s not yet known, however, HOW exactly it works.
In many cases scientists suspect that it´s simply the Placebo effect.

  I think your talking about rake-eye or however it's spelled, it actually does work and has been proven too.  Although theres no jesus involved, so you could say we're talking about something else.

[Z-Dragon]

something interesting i heard in a discussion about the bible is that in hebrew, the word for "creation" involves the root word "to mold" meaning god didn't create the universe, he molded it, i think that fits in with intelligent design and the big bang theory as well, but anyways...



I would LIKE to think that our current religions would exist in the future, however, it may come more down to people (like ashely it seems) just being protestant, and having a belief in god, but not subscribing to a major religion

[Lightice_av]

The thread has degenerated into nonsense, as open threads about religion are prone to. When a religious person declares that logic and reason dictate that their religion is correct and everybody else's is wrong there is no coming back. They fail both at reason and faith at that point, and lose all credibility and coherence.



It is also utterly pointless for an atheist to try to offer logical explanations to the absence of somebody's deity of choice. Faith, by definition, is not logical activity, and is impossible to debate against without falling into the pit of "Is too-are not"-level of argument.



There has not been a scientifically verified miracle in the human history - by definition it would cease to be a miracle at the point it was scientifically observed - if religion had scientific proof behind it, it would no longer be religion at all, but science.



In short, this kind of "discussion" is fruitless and pointless; it only succeeds at generating antagonism. I'm always eager to fight against fanaticism and attempts of a religion to impose its teachings and power on those who are not its followers, but outside those terms I see no reason to interfere with the lives or beliefs of those who do follow a religious creed - and I expect to have the same courtesy in return. Only trouble will come from religion pretending to be science, or vice versa.

[Tirigon]

Atheism is often Anti-Christianism because it´s the only religion worth opposing to if you live in Europe or the USA (what probably most of us here do).



Buddhism has no god.

Islam gets enough hate by Christians.

Judaism .... is, from an atheist POV, nearly the same as Christianity because they have the same God.

Hindhuism is too far away, noone here beliefs in it.

Paganism is unimportant (except if you live in Norway and listen to Black / Viking metal maybe^^)

Greek / egyptian / Roman gods are old, even theists don´t believe in them anymore.

[Tirigon]

RoninOmega wrote...

I think your talking about rake-eye or however it's spelled, it actually does work and has been proven too.  Although theres no jesus involved, so you could say we're talking about something else.

Well, I said it does NOT prove the existence of God (or Jesus, for that matter).