557 réponses à ce sujet

[TheNecroFiend]

Tirigon wrote...

TheNecroFiend wrote...


Are you trying to be sarcastic? Where has laying of hands been proven scientifically?

I admit that I don´t remember the exact stuff, so don´t ask me for links or so, but such things have been observed by scientists who are (supposedly) trustworthy and, well, interested in science, not religion, and it happened so often that you can´t simply call it a lie. It´s not yet known, however, HOW exactly it works.
In many cases scientists suspect that it´s simply the Placebo effect.

A few years ago they did a clinical study on intercessory prayer. And it dind't turn out to well for divine intervention.

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16569567

To sum it up they found no difference in peoples recovery if they recieved prayer or not. However they did find that people who recieved prayer and were aware that they were recieving prayer had a higher chance of complications.

[Tirigon]

TheNecroFiend wrote...


A few years ago they did a clinical study on intercessory prayer. And it dind't turn out to well for divine intervention.

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16569567

To sum it up they found no difference in peoples recovery if they recieved prayer or not. However they did find that people who recieved prayer and were aware that they were recieving prayer had a higher chance of complications.

I´ve heard of a similar study with nearly the same outcome, but they noticed a difference if the people knew one prayed for them: If they believed in prayers helping them it sometimes did, depending on the personality.

Apparently, some profited due to the placebo effect, some suffered from a sort of "urge" to become healthy, now that one prayed for them, that put them under pressure and (as you said) increased the chance of complications.

[TheNecroFiend]

Tirigon wrote...

TheNecroFiend wrote...


A few years ago they did a clinical study on intercessory prayer. And it dind't turn out to well for divine intervention.

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16569567

To sum it up they found no difference in peoples recovery if they recieved prayer or not. However they did find that people who recieved prayer and were aware that they were recieving prayer had a higher chance of complications.

I´ve heard of a similar study with nearly the same outcome, but they noticed a difference if the people knew one prayed for them: If they believed in prayers helping them it sometimes did, depending on the personality.

Apparently, some profited due to the placebo effect, some suffered from a sort of "urge" to become healthy, now that one prayed for them, that put them under pressure and (as you said) increased the chance of complications.

Yeah, the way the mind reacts to it, I fully agree with. But when it comes to claims like "prayer cured my cancer" and guys like Benny Hinn are running around knocking people out with his healing touch thats when we run into problems. The day I see Benny Hinn make a amputees arm grow back then I think he might be on to something.

[Miko555]

Grumpy Old Wizard wrote...

1) Because the space-time continuim came into being in an instant. God existed before space, time, matter or energy. God is spaceless, timeless, and immaterial.

This is a very unsatisfactory argument and a good example of Dawkins' "God of the gaps" - just because we don't understand what happened yet doesn't mean we need to explain it by God and infuse it with qualities that which conveniently can't be proved or disproved and not bother to find out the truth.
But even if (and that's a VERY big if) something created the start of the universe, given what we know of how the universe evolved, live was created and evolved, there is no reason to think there was any design, purpose or intention about it and especially no reason to think that whatever it is can hear you pray and intervene.
But on topic, the discovery of aliens in ME would destroy most of today's religions. ME would have to have it's own unique system of beliefs. Does anyone know what exactly the Asari believe with their Goddess?

[Snowraptor]

if you ask me all i heard in me was ashley talking about her faith, nothing at all about praying every morning or every sunday, so she may do religious things in her life but all bioware showed us was her faith in a higher power, that isnt religion, religion are more like privelages to do, such as going to church every sunday, or praying every hour to a god, praying whenever felt like is more of a faith full choice, religion, more strict faith, choice. ashley showed us her faith in a supernatural god, and you had the choice to continue conversation or not. I think bioware did a good job on keeping this faithfull more than pressing religion, this is coming from a christian

[Snowraptor]

oh and for any arguing about god not being real in game, relax a game doesnt prove creationsim or evolution, its JUST A GAME, use your imagination, most of if not all what we see will never happen or is possible, so relax

[withateethuh]

I found it amusing that while talking to Ashley you discover that religion has now switched places with atheism as being in the social minority. And thats the natural progression of human society whether you want it to be or not. Yet I still find it interesting that some of these races have these kind of beliefs at an age of amazing scientific achievement. Ofcourse from the codex entries most of these belief systems are more spiritual than religious, which makes sense. There's always some things that can't be explained by any scientific models. Even scientists theorize the existence of a lot of things that they can't prove, like the Higgs Boson particle.

[Riona45]

Tirigon wrote...

Greek / egyptian / Roman gods are old, even theists don´t believe in them anymore.

Well, some pagans do.  But I agree with your basic point--criticism of religion is usually going to be aimed at the most dominant faith, and in the Western world that is Christianity.

Regarding Ashley--I definitely didn't see her as any kind of religious fanatic.  She believes in a God, an afterlife (she thinks her father is there) and doesn't understand how people can look at all that is there in space and not believe that something is "out there."  I don't agree with her argument, but it wasn't over the top, and I simply replied that she's entitled to her beliefs, and on top of that the military regulations include freedom of belief.

No stress, no fuss, it was all good.

Modifié par Riona45, 21 janvier 2010 - 11:21 .

[Colinissile]

Myself being agnostic, all I will say is I think that these serious subjects can only bring good to the gaming industry, as long as we don't do something like mock them, or anger religious communities. It brings games closer to being an art form, and hopefully makes the media see past the bloody battles and through the explicit dialogue, and instead see the moral value at the core.

[Riona45]

SkullandBonesmember wrote...

This is the third and last time I'll try to get an answer to my question.

SkullandBonesmember wrote...

What Ashley said was right,
it's not only absurd but pompous to think just because the galaxy is at
our fingertips so to speak that we know everything, or even close to
everything.
It's also absurd and pompous to think anybody who has a
supernatural experience(s) is either "insane", suffering from
abnormalities in the enviroment, or a liar. I'm not attacking you, just
stating my 2 cents.
Would you agree anybody who has experienced the paranormal would fall under one of those three categories and ONLY one?

Your question implies that the paranormal exists and can be experienced.  However, I'll humor you if you phrase the question more clearly.

And by the way--few people, theists or no, would seriously assert that they know *everything*.

[Riona45]

Colinissile wrote...

Myself being agnostic, all I will say is I think that these serious subjects can only bring good to the gaming industry, as long as we don't do something like mock them, or anger religious communities.

I don't think games should deliberately set out to mock people.  However, how does a game developer have control over whether or not they *anger* people?  If a game tackles serious subjects, they are bound to make some people angry.  Also, some religious communities would be upset at a game that's "too violent, too sexual, too secular in its worldview," etc.  Should game developers do their level best not to anger people who wouldn't give them the benefit of the doubt in the first place?

[Jzadek]

Grumpy Old Wizard wrote...



When I reached about the age of 19 my baby sister had scholiosis. One of her legs was shorter than the other and her spine was curved. She was getting worse. She had to wear inserts in one of her shoes becasue of the short leg and was going to start having to wear braces. She was very upset as any young teenage girl would be.

A Pentecostal couple (not ministers) heard about my sister (we lived in a small town) and asked to come pray for her. They gave my parents referenceds of people they had prayed for who had been healed. My parents called and talked to the people and then allowed the couple to come pray for my sister. When they laid hands on her and prayed, my sister was instantly healed. Her leg grew out, her spine straigtened out and her pains disappeared. Very sooon afterwards she joined the basketball team and became the starting point guard.

The question that begs asking is why did god heal your sister but not the millions of christians dying around the globe? My grandfather was a priest, and he caught cancer. He was not healed. This is going to sound silly, but (and I'm giving you the benefit of the doubt on your story) suppose it was pure chance? Or any medical care she was previously given?

Also, I have the history surrounding the Bible quite extensively.
The Bible has many thousands more manuscripts supporting it than any
other ancient document. If any ancient document can be considered a
historical document so too must the Bible.

If you've studied the Bible you would recognise the sheer barbaraity included in it. Notable stories are when two daughters got their fatehr drunk, then raped him, and when god incinerated two men for offering him the wrong sacrifice. And this was a modern, cleaned up version. The old version doesn't bear thinking about.

[this isnt my name]

Z-Dragon wrote...

something interesting i heard in a discussion about the bible is that in hebrew, the word for "creation" involves the root word "to mold" meaning god didn't create the universe, he molded it, i think that fits in with intelligent design and the big bang theory as well, but anyways...

I would LIKE to think that our current religions would exist in the future, however, it may come more down to people (like ashely it seems) just being protestant, and having a belief in god, but not subscribing to a major religion

Um where did she say she was protestant ? She said she beleives in God, she never went any further and specified, or did I miss that dialouge ?

[Daeion]

I'll start of saying that I am a Christian so I may come across as a little biased.



I'm am perfectly fine with religion in games as long as it's not forced upon me in the game play experience or the portrayal isn't skewed one way or the other. I thought the way ME handled religion with Ash was perfect. You had the option to either continue to explore it with her or just cut it off, and you got to decide if your char had faith or not. If it fits into the story and helps develop a char properly, i.e. not just making them look silly, weird, or strange because of their beliefs then I'm all for it and welcome a char that has no faith and balances them and any discussions they may have.

[TheNecroFiend]

SkullandBonesmember wrote...

TheNecroFiend wrote...

As someone who thinks religion and the supernatural is a load of BS I have no problems with religion in games.

Tirigon wrote...

But as long as there is no proof I won´t belief in one, that simple.

This is the third and last time I'll try to get an answer to my question.

SkullandBonesmember wrote...

What Ashley said was right,
it's not only absurd but pompous to think just because the galaxy is at
our fingertips so to speak that we know everything, or even close to
everything.
It's also absurd and pompous to think anybody who has a
supernatural experience(s) is either "insane", suffering from
abnormalities in the enviroment, or a liar. I'm not attacking you, just
stating my 2 cents.
Would you agree anybody who has experienced the paranormal would fall under one of those three categories and ONLY one?

Burden of proof is on the claimant. We have an understanding on how lightning and stormclouds form. Should we take a person who claims that Zeus is in the sky hurling thunderbolts, without any evidence to support his claim, seriously?

The first part of your question is disingenuous. I never claimed to know everything about the universe. In fact I have absolutley no problem stating that man still has much to learn about it. And there are things that we will probably never know. All we have to go on is what we observer in the natural world. That is what our technology and medicine is based on, we have had good results from observing the natural world. The supernatural exists outside of our realm of observation, so why give it equal footing?

[Chassthemighty]

Well I'm Catholic... Sorta. Me and it have our disagreements. *Waits for rocks to be thrown* As for the religion in Dragon Age, it was a very interesting twist on modern religion, with the whole, single deity, but has abandoned mankind kind of thing. It was present, but not overly so, and demonstrated both the good (People like the sisters who helped others and Andraste) and the bad (The Templars) of religions, which is a very real fact.



As for religion in Mass Effect, I would like to think that there would be some sort of religion still around in that day in age. As far as i'm aware, there's nothing in The Bible (The book i'm most familiar with, just so no one thinks I'm biased) that says there isn't life in outer space. Of course, there could be, but even so, it doesn't mean that religion would fall apart because of that. That aside, ultimately, religion is a matter of faith, that is to say, trust in a belief without absolute proof, because one chooses to do so, as they feel it is right in their heart. I think something like that will always be present, no matter the time or circumstance.

[Colinissile]

Riona45 wrote...

Colinissile wrote...

Myself being agnostic, all I will say is I think that these serious subjects can only bring good to the gaming industry, as long as we don't do something like mock them, or anger religious communities.

I don't think games should deliberately set out to mock people.  However, how does a game developer have control over whether or not they *anger* people?  If a game tackles serious subjects, they are bound to make some people angry.  Also, some religious communities would be upset at a game that's "too violent, too sexual, too secular in its worldview," etc.  Should game developers do their level best not to anger people who wouldn't give them the benefit of the doubt in the first place?

I mean done without thought, or consideration with what people would think...there are still many racist jokes in video games. And I know religious communites will be upset very easily, but unless it is incredibly, absolutely rational, it'll fade. I don't think too many people complained about the Ashley dialogue. I loved it, it made me feel like I was talking to an actual person with a personality, and it really added to her character to me. Which is why I am so sad to see her go..

[this isnt my name]

Chassthemighty wrote...

Well I'm Catholic... Sorta. Me and it have our disagreements. *Waits for rocks to be thrown* As for the religion in Dragon Age, it was a very interesting twist on modern religion, with the whole, single deity, but has abandoned mankind kind of thing. It was present, but not overly so, and demonstrated both the good (People like the sisters who helped others and Andraste) and the bad (The Templars) of religions, which is a very real fact.

As for religion in Mass Effect, I would like to think that there would be some sort of religion still around in that day in age. As far as i'm aware, there's nothing in The Bible (The book i'm most familiar with, just so no one thinks I'm biased) that says there isn't life in outer space. Of course, there could be, but even so, it doesn't mean that religion would fall apart because of that. That aside, ultimately, religion is a matter of faith, that is to say, trust in a belief without absolute proof, because one chooses to do so, as they feel it is right in their heart. I think something like that will always be present, no matter the time or circumstance.

I think most assume there is no life according to the bible because it syas we were made in Gods image, that makes us feel special and unique, people would feel less unique if it turned out there was other llife, atleast some will.

[Riona45]

SkullandBonesmember wrote...

How do you account for the many people who have no bad standing in their community, have nothing to gain sharing their story, and are well educated people that claim they experience supernatural things where the only conclusion is there's something unexplainable happening?

Humans, even well-educated ones, don't have perfect brains.  Our reasoning, logic and critical thinking skills are often faulty.  That is why there is a whole laundry list of logical fallacies and biases that people have to struggle with.  Even smart, sincere people can be wrong about something they believe.  In fact, from what I've read smart people are in fact quite susceptible to seeing "patterns" and meanings where there are none.  And just because an event appears to have no explanation doesn't mean there isn't one, and that explanation need not be supernatural.

I am interested in the part of your question dealing with people who "have nothing to gain sharing their story."  Just because someone thinks or insists that they have nothing to gain by that doesn't mean it's true.  One example?  By claiming to have experienced the supernatural, maybe one might see himself as "special" (even if their belief is completely sincere) and not everyone could resist sharing their specialness with others. 

Modifié par Riona45, 21 janvier 2010 - 11:58 .

[TheNecroFiend]

SkullandBonesmember wrote...

Riona45 wrote...

Your question implies that the paranormal exists and can be experienced.  However, I'll humor you if you phrase the question more clearly.

And by the way--few people, theists or no, would seriously assert that they know *everything*.

How do you account for the many people who have no bad standing in their community, have nothing to gain sharing their story, and are well educated people that claim they experience supernatural things where the only conclusion is there's something unexplainable happening?

I don't know the mindset of God. I don't know where we go after death. In terms of ghosts/poltergeists, I don't know what to think about "Heaven" and why spirits stick around Earth. Perhaps the universe is at the dead's fingertips and there is no "Heaven". I don't know what happens to evil people like Hitler once they're dead. What I do know, after having multiple experiences with the paranormal, there IS more to life than the physical only. However since I have no "proof", closed minded skeptics will automatically dismiss me and anybody else like me.

Personal exepriances are just that, personal experiances. I have no way of knowing your state of mind or the circumstance of events. Personal experiances are completely subjective and a poor form of evidence.

[withateethuh]

this isnt my name wrote...

Chassthemighty wrote...

Well I'm Catholic... Sorta. Me and it have our disagreements. *Waits for rocks to be thrown* As for the religion in Dragon Age, it was a very interesting twist on modern religion, with the whole, single deity, but has abandoned mankind kind of thing. It was present, but not overly so, and demonstrated both the good (People like the sisters who helped others and Andraste) and the bad (The Templars) of religions, which is a very real fact.

As for religion in Mass Effect, I would like to think that there would be some sort of religion still around in that day in age. As far as i'm aware, there's nothing in The Bible (The book i'm most familiar with, just so no one thinks I'm biased) that says there isn't life in outer space. Of course, there could be, but even so, it doesn't mean that religion would fall apart because of that. That aside, ultimately, religion is a matter of faith, that is to say, trust in a belief without absolute proof, because one chooses to do so, as they feel it is right in their heart. I think something like that will always be present, no matter the time or circumstance.

I think most assume there is no life according to the bible because it syas we were made in Gods image, that makes us feel special and unique, people would feel less unique if it turned out there was other llife, atleast some will.

In the terms of our knowledge of the vastness of the universe, we are very, very unique.

[Chassthemighty]

To be honest, i've never been entirely clear what God's image technically is, since He's supposed to be the ultimate everything and.. You know what? This is going to evolve into an epic theological tangent on my part if I go any further, and those never end well, mainly because I start to oscillate back and forth and never get a definite idea clear. You might be correct isn't my name, I really don't know, as i'm no theological scholar. But I think I addressed Stanley's question well enough (Or at least, I hope I did) and that was my goal.