557 réponses à ce sujet

[Nobz Giblitz]

Well, Nobz Giblitz is fine with religion in a game.
Why are you typing in third person handheld?

[Riona45]

SkullandBonesmember wrote...

Not everything leaves a physical mark to be studied in depth though.

Example? 

Going the "now onles i expereuns it 4 myself it doznt exist" route is very closed minded.

I agree, but no one did that.  You've been given polite and properly worded answers to your question.

[Riona45]

SkullandBonesmember wrote...


See? You're already both grasping at straws like skeptics always do. When I sign back in I'll address your posts individually but I'm sure my points will fall on deaf ears.

You're joking right?

You come here wondering why no one answered a question you asked.  I and one other person decide to humor you and give you a polite answer to your question.  Then you verbally give us the finger for doing it.  If you're going to act like that, please don't bother addressing my post (after all, it'd be a waste of time, right?).  Maybe that's why no one wanted to interact with you (and answer your question) the first time...?

You seem like you are on the defensive and frankly I think you are projecting a bit.  I think you took what we said personally (you said before that you think you had an "experience"), you don't want to hear it and are accusing US of grasping at straws and having "deaf ears."  Sorry, but I think *you* are the one who won't hear what *we* say.

Modifié par Riona45, 22 janvier 2010 - 12:18 .

[Lightice_av]

See? You're already both grasping at straws like skeptics always do.

Er, making some of the best arguments in the thread is grasping straws nowadays? The burden of proof lies with you. If you cannot provide data, there is no reason to consider your arguments, or rather the lack thereof valid.

You're well on your way to the pitfall I warned earlier in this thread about: trading real faith for false knowledge.

[TheNecroFiend]

SkullandBonesmember wrote...
\\
See? You're already both grasping at straws like skeptics always do. When I sign back in I'll address your posts individually but I'm sure my points will fall on deaf ears.

Don't you think you have that backwards? You fell back on personal experiances to prove a point. Do you view all supernatural claims based on personal experiance the same? Do Ghosts, pixies, leperchauns, gremlins, deities, vampires, werewolves, genies ect all get the same view in your mind. How about UFO abductes? If not, what criteria are you using to establish the difference in a claim based on personal experiance?

[HunterX6]

it doesnt bother me as long as it not force on me just like many have said, though I didnt mind DA:O at all, i actually thought it was very interesting and made my character a helping and good character to help others in the game, then made another evil blood mage character against the maker lol (I prefer the good side though)

[Riona45]

HunterX6 wrote...

it doesnt bother me as long as it not force on me just like many have said, though I didnt mind DA:O at all, i actually thought it was very interesting and made my character a helping and good character to help others in the game, then made another evil blood mage character against the maker lol (I prefer the good side though)

I played an altruistic mage who didn't believe in any religion.   Morrigan actually has a few dialogues with Leliana about the Maker, and her arguments actually made perfect sense to me.  Leliana asks Morrigan how she can use magic, commune with spirits, etc. and still not believe in the Maker.  Morrigan basically replied that while she can feel magic course through her, use it to shape the world to her will and actually observe its effects, she has nothing but old legends to go on when it comes to the Maker (and it doesn't help his case that he has allegedly decided to abandon humanity, either...if he doesn't talk, how does anyone know he's there?).

And then there's the conversation they have when Leliana asks where the world, the Fade, and everything else (blah blah blah) came from, if not the Maker.  The dialogue there felt eerily like a real life conversation between a skeptic and a religious apologist.

Modifié par Riona45, 22 janvier 2010 - 12:32 .

[Grumpy Old Wizard]

Jzadek wrote...

The question that begs asking is why did god heal your sister but not the millions of christians dying around the globe? My grandfather was a priest, and he caught cancer. He was not healed. This is going to sound silly, but (and I'm giving you the benefit of the doubt on your story) suppose it was pure chance? Or any medical care she was previously given?

Scholosis is incurable by modern medicine.

I don't know why everyone does not get healed. I suspect a great deal has to do with the level of faith that the person has that God will heal. There are also such things as a person willfully living in sin. Or God may withhold healing until a person learns a certain thing God wishes for them to learn that they will not otherwise. Or something else entirely.

If you've studied the Bible you would recognise the sheer barbaraity included in it. Notable stories are when two daughters got their fatehr drunk, then raped him, and when god incinerated two men for offering him the wrong sacrifice. And this was a modern, cleaned up version. The old version doesn't bear thinking about.

The Bible presents the good, the bad, and the ugly. It does not paint the followers of God to be perfect people. That lends credence to its reliability.

Did God say it was ok for Lot's daughters to get him drunk and have sex with him?  Nope. Lots daughters appear to have thought that God destroyed all of mankind except them but that does not excuse their sin.

Oh, the priests who offered the wrong sacrifice did so knowingly. They rebelled against God and paid the price. If you say "In your face, God, I'm don't things my way" expect to pay a price now or in eternity.

I don't see anything  barbaric there. But we could mention the barbarism of atheist mass murderes such as Lenin, Staing, Mao, Pol Pot, ect, again. Atheists have killed far more people than all other religions combined for all of recorded history.
-------------------

About religion in the game. I really don't care becasue it is fantasy. I do think if they are going to pattern a religion after a real world religion they should treat the religion respectfully.

Modifié par Grumpy Old Wizard, 22 janvier 2010 - 01:26 .

[handheld]

Nobz Giblitz wrote...

Well, Nobz Giblitz is fine with religion in a game.
Why are you typing in third person handheld?

Handheld is not speaking in third person Handheld is speaking in Mongolian and it just appears this way to Handhelds fellow forumites.

Many of Handhelds fellow forumites already know this.


Handheld also wishes for everyone to keep this thread civil and discuss it with Courtesy and respect for each others personal beliefs.

Handheld does not want to see things like "God hit moses with a rhinocerous" NO BAD!!!

Handheld is glad things have been civil so far Handheld has seen it get a bit a heated a couple pages back. Handheld wishes to say that no matter what your beliefs are christianity, catholicism, budhissm, Hitlerism?????.

That no matter what our beliefs are or might be that we are all people and as people Handheld knows we all deserve respect.


Handheld also knows that hitler/stalin were not dangerous because of there religion but because they wanted to force there ideals upon others and thats what made them dangerous.

[The55PercentCrew]

Stanley Woo wrote...

I'm not sure if it's been brought up
already, but how do players here feel about the way religion was
handled in Dragon Age: Origins--a fictional monotheism which could very
easily be compared to real-world religions?

It is interesting
and engaging? Does it seem preachy or modeled too closely on a
real-world religion? Did you even notice? Did you want to learn more
about it?

And to keep it on topic for the forum: What kind of
religion system do you think would fit in well with the Mass Effect
universe? What role would a modern-day Earth religion deity play for a
space-faring, alien-meeting human?

And thank you all for keeping it mature and professional. I appreciate that.

It
is interesting to ponder what religion will be like in about 200 years.
I for one think that it will not phase out. The ammount of Christians
and Jews will fall by a wide margin and I think these people will lean
more towards agnostic or atheism. I beleive
that the rise of Islam will continue and that will be the dominant
religion in the future. The Mass Effect univese should include
Christians, Muslims and Jews. What will be different will be the
ethnesity of the person and the religion. Muslims  in the future will
include far more Europeans because of the rising migrant population in
the EU. This in turn will cause many people to convert to the foreign
relgion. This has happened before in ancient Rome. As the Romans
counquered an area they added the regional god to their pantheon.

I am suprised at the lack of religous fanatic in the Mass Effect univese. The Asari don't push their relgion on others, instead they seem to keep it to themselves. I have not played 2 so I am waiting to see if we get a better understanding of their beleifs. The Hanar do press their relgion on others, but it is harmless, funny and dumb. I am interesting in seeing Drell religion and I hope it expands on it. Is it more extremist? I would like to see a race of aliens to will litterly kill for their god(s). You could argue that the geth did this, but they were being used by the reapers.

If we look at the Romans (again) and the Catholics we can see a trend in religious developement. They saw religion as a means of control. As they  expanded their empires they integrated local gods into pantheon (same with canonizing sainst). It would be fun to see an alien and human religion that does the same thing. A monotheistic society or colony or whatever that believes in God and and human prophets would have to emerge. They also add prophets and saints from alien religions to control the people and keep them happy. I want to see a colony where this mash up of religion is taking place and is working. It is very popular in this day and age to demonize religion and say that the world would be a better place without it. It would be fun to not only prove this idea wrong, but prove that it is still wrong in 200 years.

[Bigdoser]

Handheld also knows that hitler/stalin were not dangerous because of there religion but because they wanted to force there ideals upon others and thats what made them dangerous.



i agree with this as well.

Modifié par Bigdoser, 22 janvier 2010 - 01:44 .

[Akiada]

I'm rather fond of the presence of religion in video games - and ME in particular - as while I do not personally believe, it's obvious (duh) that many, many people do and I doubt very much that religion will ever go away - even if some day people no long spoke of Jesus, Mohammad, Moses, Buddha, etc. but of strange new prophets we've yet to hear of.

It's realistic.

Hell, I'm surprised there aren't new religions in ME aside from the alien ones.

Then again, that one chick on Eden Prime does say "Oh thank the Maker!" so maybe humanity has created some new ones.

Edit: Actually, looking at a few pages back, it seems I've forgotten parts of ME: Revelation, hah. There are new ones, just they haven't made a showing in game yet.

Modifié par Akiada, 22 janvier 2010 - 02:06 .

[YR_Lim]

This thread is getting out of hand, needs LOCKDOWN!

[cdawg86]

I do not understand what the big deal about having religion in a game. If someone wants to portray their beliefs they have the right to do so through any artistic medium they chose. Myself being a Christian wouldn't like it if atheist beliefs were pushed on me through a video game, but instead of making a big deal about it, I would simply not play the game. You see it all the time in movies, books, and even cartoons; everyone pushes their own personal agenda. Why should it be any different in video games?

[Destenoth]

Hmm. As an atheist I too will elect to be an atheist when given the choice. If I were alive to see discoveries such as the Prothean bunker on Mars,
it would only serve to reinforce my atheism; I can see myself
thinking: "So, uh, God,
how come you never mentioned these blue people before? What about the
Krogan? In whose image did you create them?"

I identified strongly with the mentions of the religious turmoil that was talked about in Mass Effect: Revelation. It did seem to fit with how I perceive some elements of religion in general; a lot collapsed but a few new ones immediately sprung up and started blabbing on about how right they were in light of all the new things found in the Prothean bunker.

It honestly wouldn't surprise me if the Reapers rocked up and a bunch of people tried to worship them, but that's an observation regarding people in general, and not really on religion itself.

To sum up, religion in Mass Effect, and in games in general, is fine as long as I'm not forced to worship someone. That kind of thing could lead to an un-democratic game, and then the US would have to send in the Marines in order to rescue my rights as an interstellar citizen 

[handheld]

cdawg86 wrote...

I do not understand what the big deal about having religion in a game. If someone wants to portray their beliefs they have the right to do so through any artistic medium they chose. Myself being a Christian wouldn't like it if atheist beliefs were pushed on me through a video game, but instead of making a big deal about it, I would simply not play the game. You see it all the time in movies, books, and even cartoons; everyone pushes their own personal agenda. Why should it be any different in video games?

Handheld himself doesnt think that there is a big deal with having religion in games however Handheld does know that if you do it carelessly it could seriously harm develeopers.

Hanheld himself knows there alot of religious gamers out there and they could cause all sorts of problems for any game developer if they implement religion in a careless or offensive way. Handheld himself and probably alot of his fellow forumites know that bad publicitiy is bad no matter how you look at it, and it can be hard for developers especially when they put alot of pride and joy into there artworks only to have them torn down piece by piece because of a large group of upset people.

Handheld himself knows that most developers tend to shy away from implementing religion in most games because of the very reason that they dont want to upset people.

Handheld however thinks that DAO did very well in creating its own religion within game and making it a believable one.

As for the question of what religions could be included in mass effect 2 or 3 Handheld thinks any religion would do fine as long as they made it believable after all Handheld and his fellow forumites are in the future and in the future if there are blue aliens and gigantic frog-lizard people then most religions are bound to adapt.,

Handheld couldnt imagine Christians for example going (gasp) "Giant frog lizard you are the god created you so come join us in worshipping our lord savior"

Frog-Lizard- Does your god fight for large amounts of credits?

Intergalactic Christian- Well......uh...... no.....

Frog lizard- HM where is your god so i can knock some sense into him.

Modifié par handheld, 22 janvier 2010 - 06:56 .

[merikano]

Handheld, good to see you again fellow forumnite.



Religion is a part of everybody's life, whether they believe in it or not. With Mass Effect BW has really tried to incorporate as many real life concepts as possible from sex and religion to military strategy and education. I don't think too many gaming corporations can pull off balance in terms of what's proper and what isn't in their games but BW has shown the ability; most prominent in the ME1 sex scenes I think.



And though they only touched on Christianity really in ME1 I don't see why the other religions that have persisted for millenia would suddenly be found fraud and their followers dispersed. If BW does decide to include religion in the future then it should be diverse, balanced, and done very tastefully. If used right it can be both a powerful enhancement for ME and other RPG games as well as an equally powerful influence on others. They just have to be careful not to influence younger generations of game players towards any one faith that their parents or guardians would dissaprove of.



Stanley Woo? I don't know nearly enough to theorise on any future developments theocracy has in store for us (even in the ME universe) but I do think that when Shepard does finally pay a visit to earth some form of visitation to a religious structure (Cathedral, Moqsue, Synagouge, etc.) should be in order. It'd be really fascinating to see this futuristic structure housing older forms of religious idols or painted windows for example.

[sakay]

My only frustration with religion in DA:O was that it was impossible to complete one of the main quests without the "miraculous" intervention of a religious object (kept deliberately vague to avoid spoilers). No matter how firmly the character holds to another belief system, or no belief at all, there is no other way to complete the quest.



Otherwise, the religious elements contained a rather eloquent, if indirect, commentary on religions in the real world--both good and bad. The Chantry is both a source of aid and comfort to those in need and a brutally repressive and intolerant power engaging in Exalted Marches to crush those who disagree and burning mages who don't submit to the Chantry's supervision. I really enjoy the deeper aspects of the story.

[handheld]

sakay wrote...

My only frustration with religion in DA:O was that it was impossible to complete one of the main quests without the "miraculous" intervention of a religious object (kept deliberately vague to avoid spoilers). No matter how firmly the character holds to another belief system, or no belief at all, there is no other way to complete the quest.

Otherwise, the religious elements contained a rather eloquent, if indirect, commentary on religions in the real world--both good and bad. The Chantry is both a source of aid and comfort to those in need and a brutally repressive and intolerant power engaging in Exalted Marches to crush those who disagree and burning mages who don't submit to the Chantry's supervision. I really enjoy the deeper aspects of the story.

Handheld thought that actually made the quest better as they had exhausted everything they could think of and then turned to miracles.

Handheld thinks that shows how desperate they were and gave some real meaning behind the quest.

[Cobwebmaster]

For me an atheist, I thought the religious aspect of the game and the constant reference to it by all NPCs a significant, perceptive and cleverly objective contribution. The legends astonishingly paralleled both crusades in the middle ages from the Muslim Wars of the 9th century to the Christian ones 11th and onwards (including those against other Christians. Additionally so much of character's attitudes in the game reflect today's perceptions and conduct of both acolytes and casual worshippers. Excellent effort I thought and indeed if you are that way inclined, plenty of food for thought about how one or a few highly placed narrow views and interpretations of philosophical teachings can be imposed as religious doctrine and ruthlessly enforced with disastrous results at an interpersonal level

That's what happens when religion and politics occupy the same vehicle. Lots of death, lots of superstition and pretty much lots of all the negative things which only serve to more than wipe out any good or positive contributions to society that the originator hoped for

Modifié par Cobwebmaster, 22 janvier 2010 - 10:19 .

[Tirigon]

SkullandBonesmember wrote...


What Ashley said was right,
it's not only absurd but pompous to think just because the galaxy is at
our fingertips so to speak that we know everything, or even close to
everything.
It's also absurd and pompous to think anybody who has a
supernatural experience(s) is either "insane", suffering from
abnormalities in the enviroment, or a liar. I'm not attacking you, just
stating my 2 cents.
Would you agree anybody who has experienced the paranormal would fall under one of those three categories and ONLY one?

It is not insane to experience supernatural phenomenas, as they are sometimes real (though mostly not, of course).
It is a well-known fact - to non-religious people more than to religious ones - that we don´t now everything. That´s why  there is science.

It IS, however, stupid to see that as prove for a god. It simply means we need more scientific research - or the acceptance of our lack of knowledge. It does in no way mean there must be god, spirits, demons or whatever.
Most supernatural phenomenas are not really supernatural but only not yet explainable. They will eventually be.

[Tirigon]

SkullandBonesmember wrote...


Not everything leaves a physical mark to be studied in depth though. Going the "now onles i expereuns it 4 myself it doznt exist" route is very closed minded. I know what I've experienced. Will I admit some if it could be considered the "placebo effect" as the skeptics so much like to grasp at straws? Sure, but that doesn't make up the majority of the experiences.

[Sarcasm]
I can proof god doesn´t exist. I met him in a bar, we drank a beer together and when I wanted him to pay he said "Better YOU pay, I´m only an illusion, the others don´t see me, nor the money I could pay."
[Sarcasm off]

Why am I saying that? Because it shows how much proof your "experiences" are. Not more than this, especially since you did not even tell what exactly you experienced.
No offense meant, but even if some God / Angel /...  really WOULD have appeared to you that would more probably mean you have hallucinations than it would prove something.