557 réponses à ce sujet

[Lightice_av]

I'm very much an atheist, but I want to see religion handled in video games. Religion is a part of everyday life for most people, and disregarding it completely just feels jarring. In RPGs trying to present a world where real people live in I prefer to see the religion kept ambigious - having obviously existing gods that actively interfere with mortals just cheapens it. Why have faith on something that's clearly there?



Bioware has been very good at making religious characters that aren't unlikeable to me. Leliana for example is technically a religious nutjob with her motivation, but she's not making fuss about her sincere belief that she's on a mission from God, and she's using it as a genuine reason to do good, instead of promoting her own ego - behaviour that I would much prefer to see among real life religious people.

I also like how Ashley is religious, but it doesn't dominate her character - it's just one trait among many that define her. I wouldn't mind seeing that kind of traits in other characters, preferably from various different religions.

[SpectreNihlus]

Revan312 wrote...

SpectreNihlus wrote...

concerning Christianity and mass effect universe

Christianity says absolutely nothing on aliens and the two are not mutually exclusive the more baseline christians such as catholics imo will not change too much however the more modern sects might try to change up some things and end up squashing themselves

would actually be very interesting to hear a news reel that the Pope would is planning a visit to the Citadel or something to that effect

That's exactly how I think, the religions of the world (the major contenders at least) would be happy as that would mean more converts and more money for giant space churches/temples made of gold, or maybe paladium

Alien life would be seen as an opportunity to exploit, at the end of the day major religions are no different from corporations, it's all about the profit, religion just likes to guilt trip people for their money rather than gather it through traditional economic markets and exploitation.

my dad ( who is a catholic btw) makes jokes that the Pope is planning a corporate buyout of the Jewish faith so that they will be able to use the same building but have it used as a temple on saturdays for jews and sundays for christians so that all donations go to the same place

[trekkieb47]

I actually enjoyed Ashley's take on religion. She believes in God, but now that humans are in space, it only strengthens her belief in a higher power.



I remember reading the the ME novels that when the Prothean ruins were discovered on Mars, many Earth religions were rocked to the core, new ones sprang up, and many scrambled to explain them. I would be interested to see how current religions evolved in the ME universe.

[Badpie]

Stanley Woo wrote...

I'm not sure if it's been brought up already, but how do players here feel about the way religion was handled in Dragon Age: Origins--a fictional monotheism which could very easily be compared to real-world religions?

It is interesting and engaging? Does it seem preachy or modeled too closely on a real-world religion? Did you even notice? Did you want to learn more about it?

I thoroughly enjoyed the religious aspect in DA, especially because there were so many different points of view. Yew the Chantry and The Maker and all that is the predominant religion, especially among humans and I thought the game showed the really great parts of that as well as the more ridiculous parts of it as well. I appreciated the different spiritual pathways of the elves and dwarves and how they were handled, as well as the portrayal of someone like Morrigan who clearly follows her own spiritual path (if she does at all). I didn't see it as too preachy and I liked that it was sort of familiar in a way to real life religions. So many comparisons can be drawn to Catholicism, but there seemed to be other aspects taken from other myths and god and goddess stories as well. Well done.

And to keep it on topic for the forum: What kind of religion system do you think would fit in well with the Mass Effect universe? What role would a modern-day Earth religion deity play for a space-faring, alien-meeting human?

I think in that day and age there will always be many people that hold true to the older religions like Christianity, Judaism, Buddhism, Islam, etc. But I see other ideas and theories evolving from those. Perhaps there is a large group of people who equate their spirituality with scientific fact and knowledge. I see scientific progress and technology and the addition of non-human life forms as a major shake up to the major religions that will then either collectively evolve to coincide with this new world or cling staunchly to outdated dogma. I see a lot of religioius discord, confusion and uproar on Earth during this time. After all the world basically got turned on its head less than 30 years ago for them.

And thank you all for keeping it mature and professional. I appreciate that.

Amazing, isn't it?

Modifié par Badpie, 20 janvier 2010 - 09:29 .

[Revan312]

SpectreNihlus wrote...

my dad ( who is a catholic btw) makes jokes that the Pope is planning a corporate buyout of the Jewish faith so that they will be able to use the same building but have it used as a temple on saturdays for jews and sundays for christians so that all donations go to the same place

Haha, that's great, I bet your dad's a cool guy.  Anyone that's faithful  yet can joke about such things and see the reality of what "The Church" or "The Temple" is, not the actual beliefs of the religion, I have 0 problem with.

[SpectreNihlus]

And concerning the DA:O religion stuff



I thought it was handled very well



I even played a dalish elf who started out hostile towards the chantrys beliefs to eventually helping start out a chantry in Orzammar

[Major Alenko]

its scary really after playing Dragon Age, ive adopted new saying from it, a number of times ive blerted out "oh thank the maker" oh the looks i get from my friends lmao

[birdland 1115]

I had an art professor in college who told me that good art evokes an emotional response. It doesn't matter if it's a positive or a negative response it just has to be emotionally gripping. Just by looking at the responses to Ashley on one page of the forum: tom.bleaker noted it made him uncomfortable, it seemed to upset Sylvius the Mad, conversely it drew Pannamaslo into the story, and GmanFresh was put at ease by it.

This is why I like religion it in Mass Effect.

Modifié par birdland 1115, 20 janvier 2010 - 09:33 .

[tom.bleaker]

Lightice_av wrote...

I'm very much an atheist, but I want to see religion handled in video games. Religion is a part of everyday life for most people, and disregarding it completely just feels jarring. In RPGs trying to present a world where real people live in I prefer to see the religion kept ambigious - having obviously existing gods that actively interfere with mortals just cheapens it. Why have faith on something that's clearly there?

Bioware has been very good at making religious characters that aren't unlikeable to me. Leliana for example is technically a religious nutjob with her motivation, but she's not making fuss about her sincere belief that she's on a mission from God, and she's using it as a genuine reason to do good, instead of promoting her own ego - behaviour that I would much prefer to see among real life religious people.
I also like how Ashley is religious, but it doesn't dominate her character - it's just one trait among many that define her. I wouldn't mind seeing that kind of traits in other characters, preferably from various different religions.

I pretty much agree. Ashley rubbed me the wrong way, for some reason, as I said in my previous post.  Good point on having real god(s). My biggest gripe with Forgotten Realms will always be the stupidity that is the Wall of the Faithless.

[Daerog]

There should be more religion/spirituality in video games if the game is going for immersion. It is a big part of cultures and many/most societies.

Religion in DA:O was pretty good if you listenned and learned of them all,  but I really wished I could have met a Tevinter mage who followed the Imperial Chantry, I think my mage would have preferred that more. I think it's funny when some people point to Lelianna as some sort of fanatic/zealot when some of her views are actually her own and not the Chantry's, and also I don't see many people not liking Sten even though he was clearly a zealot, just not the loud type because that's just not how they do things. My characters in DA:O (and myself) would rather be under the Chantry than apart of the Qun, cutting the tongues out of mages and treating them like animals was a little too much, but I see their viewpoint.

Religion is being touched on in ME with the Hanar, Ashley's comment, the Codexes, and now Thane (I think). Which is great, I like there to be variety, really preachy hanar to those who never talk about faith. I'm glad that the whole spirituality of a species isn't completely ignored in sci-fi.

Overall, it makes a world more immersive and mesmerizing (spelling?), except for games like DnD where the gods have an actual presence and it's just fact rather than faith, just kills the fun/depth.

[Harrod200]

Stanley Woo wrote...

I'm not sure if it's been brought up already, but how do players here feel about the way religion was handled in Dragon Age: Origins--a fictional monotheism which could very easily be compared to real-world religions?

It is interesting and engaging? Does it seem preachy or modeled too closely on a real-world religion? Did you even notice? Did you want to learn more about it?

And to keep it on topic for the forum: What kind of religion system do you think would fit in well with the Mass Effect universe? What role would a modern-day Earth religion deity play for a space-faring, alien-meeting human?

And thank you all for keeping it mature and professional. I appreciate that.

In DAO, I thought that the main religion was sifficiently different from most modern religions to fit nicely into the IP without casting judgments on any, and was well implemented.

As for what sort of religion would play well in the MEU, look back 200 years now and see how modern religions have evolved since then; christianity for example has in general become more secular, and the main focus of the religion has shifted, emphasising some sections of the book while conviniently forgetting about others.

While a christianity-derived religion would likely still bear much semblance to modern day religion, there would still be quite a lot of difference (location of heaven & hell, attitude to non-humans, sexuality, gender jobs). I don't know how polytheistic religions have evolved, but I imagine similar things would happen. Pretty much look back and see how the religion has changed since the 18th/19th centuries, then extrappolate from there.

In general, I quite like to see some religion in fiction; regardless of what else changes, people will still believe, but better no religion than poorly implemented; for example one species being totally devout  to the last member (I'm sure there are many more atheistic/secular Hanar) would be somewhat unlikely.

Religion can be akward and tricky to implement, but when done well, hugely increases immersion. One thing I've not yet seen done is to have several religions and allow a player to choose their preference and devotion, thus influencing their decisions and acceptance by others (i.e. follow the Enkindlers, experience greater acceptance by Hanar, and maybe a slightly lower acceptance by those who view the Hanar as a pest).

[Tirigon]

I wish you could burn down churches and kill fanatics in a video game.



And Tirigon wishs (looking at Handheld) Handheld would not talk about Handheld in the third person. Tirigon feels annoyed by this attitude of Handheld. Tirigon thinks it prevents easy reading.

No offense meant.

[SpectreNihlus]

tom.bleaker wrote...

Lightice_av wrote...

I'm very much an atheist, but I want to see religion handled in video games. Religion is a part of everyday life for most people, and disregarding it completely just feels jarring. In RPGs trying to present a world where real people live in I prefer to see the religion kept ambigious - having obviously existing gods that actively interfere with mortals just cheapens it. Why have faith on something that's clearly there?

Bioware has been very good at making religious characters that aren't unlikeable to me. Leliana for example is technically a religious nutjob with her motivation, but she's not making fuss about her sincere belief that she's on a mission from God, and she's using it as a genuine reason to do good, instead of promoting her own ego - behaviour that I would much prefer to see among real life religious people.
I also like how Ashley is religious, but it doesn't dominate her character - it's just one trait among many that define her. I wouldn't mind seeing that kind of traits in other characters, preferably from various different religions.

I pretty much agree. Ashley rubbed me the wrong way, for some reason, as I said in my previous post.  Good point on having real god(s). My biggest gripe with Forgotten Realms will always be the stupidity that is the Wall of the Faithless.

well it is kind of hard to be faithless when the gods are so active in your world

[GmanFresh]

also with regard to the chantry in orzammar.. i told that guy to go to hell..the last thing that place needed was more division

[4lex_7ru]

Eradyn wrote...

Stanley Woo wrote...

I'm not sure if it's been brought up already, but how do players here feel about the way religion was handled in Dragon Age: Origins--a fictional monotheism which could very easily be compared to real-world religions?

It is interesting and engaging? Does it seem preachy or modeled too closely on a real-world religion? Did you even notice? Did you want to learn more about it?

And to keep it on topic for the forum: What kind of religion system do you think would fit in well with the Mass Effect universe? What role would a modern-day Earth religion deity play for a space-faring, alien-meeting human?

And thank you all for keeping it mature and professional. I appreciate that.

DA:O's religions sometimes felt a little too closely modeled on real-world religions, which at times made me somewhat uncomfortable as a Catholic.  The preachyness was tolerable because it seemed more a part of their world than something being shoved in my face for whatever purpose other than atmosphere.  On that note, I'd have rather they'd been more their own creatures, but I can understand why BW might have gone the route they did (especially with DA:O being a more traditional-setting western RPG with some twists).

I agree with the above, I liked how you handled it even though it was a little to close in my opinion. One think that I really liked was how you gave no major proof to either side of the arguement (ex. Getting blessed by the priests having no ingame effects).

I think that any religon (handled well) would fit in the Mass Effect universe (and it would be interesting to see how the "official" position is on AIs). However I do feel that it may be a more private thing for the most part depending on the type of person and what they do (For example people in the military keeping it quiet due to the reactions they might get while someone who lives in a small colony or back on earth being more open about it). Anyway in both DA:O and ME I thought it was handled well and helped flesh out the land/history/characters.

[jakl201]

Stanley Woo wrote...

I'm not sure if it's been brought up already, but how do players here feel about the way religion was handled in Dragon Age: Origins--a fictional monotheism which could very easily be compared to real-world religions?

It is interesting and engaging? Does it seem preachy or modeled too closely on a real-world religion? Did you even notice? Did you want to learn more about it?

And to keep it on topic for the forum: What kind of religion system do you think would fit in well with the Mass Effect universe? What role would a modern-day Earth religion deity play for a space-faring, alien-meeting human?

And thank you all for keeping it mature and professional. I appreciate that.

The maker religion was good, although i wish there were more nuanced reactions to it other than "PRAISE BE TO THE MAKER!" or "DIE, HEATHEN!"

For the other part, personally, I've got some things to say about it. ...That's a redundant opening line. Anyways, for ME1, I found it kinda odd that christianity was no longer 'vogue'. I believe that the timeline for humanity being part of the galactic community is so short, it seems weird that Ashley would be looked down upon for her beliefs. I mean, it's survived Crusades, Inquisitions, catholic priests, and evolution. Aliens in space wouldn't really knock it down. I think there would simply be an 'edited' version Christianity, where over the years in the future the interpretation of the good book (and maybe some new versions of it) would still allow God to play a part on Earth's religion. I think that in the future they would expand God's role in creating the galaxy (or universe, whatever floats your boat).

Also, Buddhism or other religions that focus more on spirituality and less on divine beings would still be popular in the future. And of course Atheists would still be around. I don't believe any beliefs would 'die off' in the future. Except for those people who only eat organic foods. In the future what is considered 'organic' would no longer apply. That's a religion, right?

[Mox Ruuga]

I'm an atheist in real life, but I enjoy playing religious characters, mostly in the positive sense (ie. not crazy fanatics). I appreciated the possibility of admitting you are a believer too to Ash in ME1, and felt that the Chantry and The Maker were well handled in DA:O.

[tom.bleaker]

SpectreNihlus wrote...

tom.bleaker wrote...

Lightice_av wrote...

I'm very much an atheist, but I want to see religion handled in video games. Religion is a part of everyday life for most people, and disregarding it completely just feels jarring. In RPGs trying to present a world where real people live in I prefer to see the religion kept ambigious - having obviously existing gods that actively interfere with mortals just cheapens it. Why have faith on something that's clearly there?

Bioware has been very good at making religious characters that aren't unlikeable to me. Leliana for example is technically a religious nutjob with her motivation, but she's not making fuss about her sincere belief that she's on a mission from God, and she's using it as a genuine reason to do good, instead of promoting her own ego - behaviour that I would much prefer to see among real life religious people.
I also like how Ashley is religious, but it doesn't dominate her character - it's just one trait among many that define her. I wouldn't mind seeing that kind of traits in other characters, preferably from various different religions.

I pretty much agree. Ashley rubbed me the wrong way, for some reason, as I said in my previous post.  Good point on having real god(s). My biggest gripe with Forgotten Realms will always be the stupidity that is the Wall of the Faithless.

well it is kind of hard to be faithless when the gods are so active in your world

Not really. You could just view all the gods as a bunch of tossers. It seems silly that instead of going to an afterlife tailored to your god's personality, you get to slowly and painfully be melted into a wall. Why not just winking out of existence or reincarnation? 

Back on topic. In short, I think more religion in games would be interesting, as long as it wasn't forced on the PC and was integrated organically into the setting. HBO's series "Rome" was superb at doing this. Roadside shrines to various gods, religious-based swearing, funerary rites, etc. DAO more so than ME1 did this as well. I would have liked to see more ritual, superstition, etc... but hey... inventing a new religion is an intensive group effort. Writing a compelling game at the same time? Wow.

[ReDSH1FT]

@Stanley Woo



I think that religion was handled alright in DA:O. It seemed to have a bit too strong of a penchant for NPCs mentioning the Maker though, I found the constant preaching or invoking of the Maker to be annoying. Being atheist, I found it very difficult to role play an atheistic character in that there were very few dialogue choices where I could tell people to shut up about all that Maker nonsense.



Religion in the game is fine though, as long as you give the option for nonbelievers to output their disbelief in the game through dialogue or actions in an equal amount to the faith filled actions and dialogues.



DA:O treaded a nice line though between showing the hippocracy of the Chantry and it's bloodied history. The Chantry is a ruthless unyielding entity of ignorance, just like churches and religions in the dark ages. Granted not much has changed since the dark ages, it's still nice to be able to find a game with a bit of respite from all the biblical nonsense we are faced with every day.



MASS EFFECT



For Mass Effect, I would assume that the trend of disbelief in our world today would continue into the future. The amount of agnostics and atheists has been growing rapidly every day, and if you compare the numbers of out-of-the-closet atheists/agnostics today to the ones 1, 5, or 10 years ago, you'd see a clear trend.



Eventually it's clear that religion will be a thing of the past, a stark reminder of our ignorance in understanding our place in the universe. We will look back in disdain at the slaughters, slanders, and hate perpetrated by religion in shame.



Throwing the desert deity Jehovah in the Mass Effect universe would be totally detrimental to the game.



I would be personally embarassed if I was a human living in that universe and I saw a pastor preaching things to some Turians and Salarians. I would then step over and politely say to the aliens that we do not all believe in magic, and this man's superstitions do not in any way represent Humanity. Please ignore the crazy man and keep walking. *Dials C-SEC* Yes there's another preacher in the Presidium... How do they keep sneaking in here?



It's illogical, and the AI realize this too. The Geth didn't worship the reapers as gods, but as humble servants to a stronger more powerful version of themselves. They do it to make themselves seem useful.



What would Sovereign have said if Shepard said that God would stop the Reapers? Exactly.



Religion has NO place in our species' future, nor should it have any in Mass Effect.

[MarginalBeast]

Stanley Woo wrote...

I'm not sure if it's been brought up already, but how do players here feel about the way religion was handled in Dragon Age: Origins--a fictional monotheism which could very easily be compared to real-world religions?

It is interesting and engaging? Does it seem preachy or modeled too closely on a real-world religion? Did you even notice? Did you want to learn more about it?

And to keep it on topic for the forum: What kind of religion system do you think would fit in well with the Mass Effect universe? What role would a modern-day Earth religion deity play for a space-faring, alien-meeting human?

And thank you all for keeping it mature and professional. I appreciate that.

I liked the religions in Dragon Age except for one thing--it seemed to me that even though the Chantry isn't 100% correct or truthful, and the game makes that obvious, it STILL felt to me that it was more real than say the beliefs of the Dalish elves. I would have liked to see those beliefs get a little more attention. Right now I feel like the Chantry is supposed to be akin to a real-world religion whereas the Dalish beliefs are more akin to a real-world mythology. Maybe that was intentional, but it still kind of cheapens the experience a bit if you're playing as a Dalish elf, even one who does not necessarily follow any religion. But I loved the fact that the Chantry had both positive and negative things about it. It isn't a perfect religion run by perfect people but it isn't the cliche "oppressing evil religion" either. Like many real religions, there are both good sides and bad sides. The Chantry did seem to be a little too close to Christianity/Catholicism, though. Not that I mind that religion, it's just that video game religions ALWAYS seem to be based off of it. There ARE other religions in the world.

As for Mass Effect, I honestly like things the way they are now. Ashley is a great character, but because she vaguely mentions religion, people hate her for it. I don't even want to imagine what would happen if you tried to implement an Earth religion (or one similar to our modern Earth religions) further into the game even just a little bit.

Whatever you do, just keep in mind what Ashley said: "What, just because I'm in space I can't believe in a higher power? Geez!". Those words are very true. Don't assume that all of the religious human characters are suddenly going to have their beliefs shattered because of the existence of aliens and advanced technology. It doesn't work that way. MANY people from all sorts of religions believe in aliens. Of course there are also many that do not, for various reasons, but they aren't such a huge majority like people seem to think. There are hardcore religious people and then there are religious people who don't believe every little thing that their Church tells them, but still follow the religion's central messages and views. And then there are people who believe in some kind of higher power but don't follow any specific religion at all. Either way, religion is not going away anytime soon. Besides, there are clearly religious aliens in the Mass Effect universe so to remove it altogether now would be ridiculous.

I trust that BioWare will treat religions with respect, as they have in the past. It's the fan response that worries me more. Like the poster above me, for example.

What many people seem to forget is that you can't berate religions for being intolerant and then turn around and show the same kind of intolerance for religions and religious people, especially if they aren't forcing their beliefs on you.

Modifié par MarginalBeast, 20 janvier 2010 - 10:20 .

[Chained_Creator]

handheld wrote...
Handheld poses this question upon His fellow forumites.

I saw what you did there.

handheld wrote...
Handheld wishes to know how his fellow forumites feel about religion in video games and if they are uncomfortable with it or fine with it?

I'm fine with it. Religious exploration, exploitation, reverence, etc. are fine in games because they actually occur in the real world and the mechanic they (potentially) add to games makes for a more (Personally/for me) interesting experience.

[Daerog]

Eradyn wrote...

DA:O's religions sometimes felt a little too closely modeled on real-world religions, which at times made me somewhat uncomfortable as a Catholic. 

Really? As a Roman Catholic I actually really liked it. Then again, I'm a sucker for history and enjoyed learning about all the ups and downs of my religion, so I have no issue with it being presented as the villian in many stories. Not that the Chantry was a villian in DA:O. After all, no religion run by human beings is perfect, which is why the philosophy is more important.

So, can we have a fist fight with the Space Pope in ME3?

Modifié par DaerogTheDhampir, 20 janvier 2010 - 09:53 .

[RyuKazuha]

Stanley Woo wrote...

I'm not sure if it's been brought up already, but how do players here feel about the way religion was handled in Dragon Age: Origins--a fictional monotheism which could very easily be compared to real-world religions?

It is interesting and engaging? Does it seem preachy or modeled too closely on a real-world religion? Did you even notice? Did you want to learn more about it?

And to keep it on topic for the forum: What kind of religion system do you think would fit in well with the Mass Effect universe? What role would a modern-day Earth religion deity play for a space-faring, alien-meeting human?

And thank you all for keeping it mature and professional. I appreciate that.

I hadn't have the time to play Dragon Age yet, so unfortunately I cannot answer the questions concerning the game, for ME however:

I think, there are two main "ways" in wich religion would adapt itself to that situation. There is, on the one hand side, the pantheistic view, as the Asari prompt it and as it's quite common around Asia (Buddhism, Taoism, Shinto etc.).

On the other hand, there might be some kind of "scientific" monotheism, as it occurs in the western states even in our time. And with scientific I do not refer to some kind of religion based on science, but beliefs that do not position themselves contrary to the conclusions of modern science.
I don't think a church pledging itself to the absolute truth of a book written by humans could prevail within a space faring community. While incorporating the big bang theory and other scientific models into the believe would allow the religion to go on and evolve further.

However, especially the "god formed us after his image"-thing would be deliberately destroyed, once encountering sentient aliens, also claiming to be the chosen race would be... difficult, since Asari live for millenia and conquered the stars somewhat earlier.

So on whatever path, religion would have to evolve just like philosophy and the humans themselves would have to. Not on a genetic, but on a intellectual level. But as Ashley stated, many people, maybe even more than before, would come to believe, that this all colorful and wonderful world couldn't just be the child of coincidence.

I would assume, most of the people in that future wouldn't actually deny the existence of some kind of force or being beyond our imagination, since they'd have be confronted with so many things that felt out of possibility before; thus turning from atheists to actual agnostics.

Possibly, theism and atheism merge into some kind of spiritualism, abandoning the thought of a personal god, but taking into account that there is something, that connects everything throughout the universe.

Modifié par RyuKazuha, 20 janvier 2010 - 09:53 .

[tom.bleaker]

DaerogTheDhampir wrote...
So, can we have a fist fight with the Space Pope in ME3?

Gods.. I hope so.

[tom.bleaker]

RyuKazuha wrote...

I would assume, most of the people in that future wouldn't actually deny the existence of some kind of force or being beyond our imagination, since they'd have be confronted with so many things that felt out of possibility before; thus turning from atheists to actual agnostics.

Possibly, theism and atheism merge into some kind of spiritualism, abandoning the thought of a personal god, but taking into account that there is something, that connects everything throughout the universe.

By your reasoning, the Reapers are proof of the existence of god(s)/higher power(s).