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[Monster A-Go Go]

Stanley Woo wrote...

I'm not sure if it's been brought up already, but how do players here feel about the way religion was handled in Dragon Age: Origins--a fictional monotheism which could very easily be compared to real-world religions?

It is interesting and engaging? Does it seem preachy or modeled too closely on a real-world religion? Did you even notice? Did you want to learn more about it?

Honestly, it was interesting enough, but stuck so closely to Christianity that I had trouble wanting to play any character as an adherent.  I almost forbid Leilani from joining party the first time becuase of all the preachy, blind-follower nonsense she was chattering out.  But I'm not entirely sure we're supposed to be entirely accepting of the Maker's religion.  It's overbearing, it's persecutive, and it's everywhere.  As an abstract enemy, I think it fills the role quite well.  As a faith I could understand and accept, it fell a little short.  But so do most real-world religions.

Stanley Woo wrote...

And to keep it on topic for the forum: What kind of religion system do you think would fit in well with the Mass Effect universe? What role would a modern-day Earth religion deity play for a space-faring, alien-meeting human?

Well, I think it's pretty obvious that literal adherents of Judaic-Christian texts would fall off sharply.  Creationism would be severely undermined, as would notions like the creation of the Earth and stars in seven days.  I see a lot of slighted adherents forming insular groups, trying to ignore the outside universe and cling to their beliefs.  I see others joining groups like Terra Firma, hoping to drive out of exterminate any threat to their personal faith.

I also see alien contact as a boon for proselytes.  Those who believed that "God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten son," would want to spread the word to the other species in the hopes of saving their souls.  That is, so long as they accepted aliens might have souls and so long as every other alien race didn't have some sort of "Jesus daughter" that they could loophole with.

With the decline of deity-central religions, however, I think there would be a sharp increase in abstract religions and practices striped from their religious foundations.  I could see karma becoming an important philosophy, even removed from Indian faiths.  I see the mastery of body and mind taught by some Buddhist sects becoming a more widespread religious aspiration.  And I think animistic faiths like Shinto and Wicca would see increased adherents, because the life of any planet could still be seen to have its own spirit.

But the Judeo-Christian relgions...I don't think they're going anywhere even with all the Eezo in the solar system.

[JudgeQwerty]

I'm actually an atheist, but I deeply enjoyed my religious discussions with Ash and found the geth-Sovereign relationship fascinating.

[tmelange]

I understand the need to have religion in a created world, however, I'm a bit tired of religion being overly prominent in my fantasy entertainment settings. The religion aspect of DAO didn't bother me, didn't detract from the game, and, in fact, added to the game since I thought the Urn of Sacred Ashes quest was one of the best quests in the game, however, from a grand scheme perspective, religion in a monotheistic context is boring to me, lol. The maker and Andraste where very....passe. I thought the concept of the old gods was more interesting. Thinking back in terms of Oblivion and other games that I have liked, I think I have to say that I prefer some sort of wild polytheism were gods have personalities, rather than the mono approach.

[RyuKazuha]

tom.bleaker wrote...

RyuKazuha wrote...

I would assume, most of the people in that future wouldn't actually deny the existence of some kind of force or being beyond our imagination, since they'd have be confronted with so many things that felt out of possibility before; thus turning from atheists to actual agnostics.

Possibly, theism and atheism merge into some kind of spiritualism, abandoning the thought of a personal god, but taking into account that there is something, that connects everything throughout the universe.

By your reasoning, the Reapers are proof of the existence of god(s)/higher power(s).

The Reapers are indeed proof of some existence beyond our imagination. However, Sovereign was destroyed, entirely failing for the role of a god, as a "real" godlike existence cannot be killed by any means we mere creatures could even think of.

[MASTER OMEGA]

How about a "religious", or I would prefer to say a spiritual belief or school of thought, explored in Mass Effect 3 that goes like this (actually this has very deep roots in ancient cultures throughout the melennias from the days of Mesopotamia):



- Belief in the Unknown God, in the worship of the Great Void, conceptualized as the backdrop of space with all the light removedand understood to be One Vast Nothing Materially Yet All Things Potentially;



- and that the only Law of God was to Make Known the Unknown, to bring back the wisdom of experience back to God;



- and, based on the notion of the Observer in current Quantum Mechanics research and in the lore of the Mass Effect technology, that Consciousness and Energy Creates the Nature of Reality, or Thought and Action Creates Your Life;



- and going back to the last concept, that each and every living sentient life is the Observer, meaning that all life has the Divine Spark within it, and contributes to creating all that exists everywhere, known and unknown;



- and this spiritual beilef could be either and evolved belief ystem that humans have adopted based on their research and discoveries of Quantum mechanics for instance, or could be a spiritual beilef and way of life explored from the eyes of an alien race, like the Asari for instance. I think this would fit very well into the Mass Effect universe somehow.



What do you guys and gals think? What do the developpers think?

[Yootje]

Stanley Woo wrote...

I'm not sure if it's been brought up already, but how do players here feel about the way religion was handled in Dragon Age: Origins--a fictional monotheism which could very easily be compared to real-world religions?

It is interesting and engaging? Does it seem preachy or modeled too closely on a real-world religion? Did you even notice? Did you want to learn more about it?

The religion in DA:O sometimes felt a bit too closely based on real-world religion. I'm an atheist, but I know a fair bit about the God of Abraham, so to say, and sometimes it felt like the writers were really going places with Andraste and the Maker and giving fresh new twists on things - only to fall flat in the end. However, it didn't seem preachy to me, it seemed well integrated into the world and the characters varied in the strength and exact nature of their beliefs, as they well should. So... handled well, but modeled a bit too closely on real-world christianity.

And to keep it on topic for the forum: What kind of religion system do you think would fit in well with the Mass Effect universe? What role would a modern-day Earth religion deity play for a space-faring, alien-meeting human?

I would expect a lot more atheism in the world of ME, but I wouldn't expect religion to have disappeared. Maybe certain religions will prosper as others dwindle. Certainly several of the more extreme monotheïstic sects will see a decline in membership, even though I'm sure others will sprout up and incorporate aliens into their doctrine. Maybe scientology will become a big hit (creepy as the thought is). And I expect alien religions, especially that Asari one that I forgot the name off... the one that basically claims we're all part of greater whole, to be adopted by some humans. So far, I like how it's handled. I didn't like Ashley as a person, but she was an interesting character and her religion and the way she believed 'fit' with her.
I would still LOVE to see an alien race that has no religious thoughts whatsoever. Pure, stonecold sober atheists as far back as the collective memory goes. I would be really interested to know how such a species would think, what their stories are about, etc.

[tom.bleaker]

RyuKazuha wrote...

tom.bleaker wrote...

RyuKazuha wrote...

I would assume, most of the people in that future wouldn't actually deny the existence of some kind of force or being beyond our imagination, since they'd have be confronted with so many things that felt out of possibility before; thus turning from atheists to actual agnostics.

Possibly, theism and atheism merge into some kind of spiritualism, abandoning the thought of a personal god, but taking into account that there is something, that connects everything throughout the universe.

By your reasoning, the Reapers are proof of the existence of god(s)/higher power(s).

The Reapers are indeed proof of some existence beyond our imagination. However, Sovereign was destroyed, entirely failing for the role of a god, as a "real" godlike existence cannot be killed by any means we mere creatures could even think of.

I guess the Norse gods weren't gods then? One word: Ragnarok.

I only bring up the Reapers to disagree with your line of reasoning. I wouldn't suddenly become agnostic because I discovered my imagination was limited, I would just expand the scope of my imaginings.  Just because I don't understand, say the stock market or quantum entanglement, dosen't mean those things are run by magic... it just means I don't understand them. 

[Mr. Gerbz]

Stanley Woo wrote...

I'm not sure if it's been brought up already, but how do players here feel about the way religion was handled in Dragon Age: Origins--a fictional monotheism which could very easily be compared to real-world religions?

It is interesting and engaging? Does it seem preachy or modeled too closely on a real-world religion? Did you even notice? Did you want to learn more about it?

And to keep it on topic for the forum: What kind of religion system do you think would fit in well with the Mass Effect universe? What role would a modern-day Earth religion deity play for a space-faring, alien-meeting human?

And thank you all for keeping it mature and professional. I appreciate that.

Yeah, it did seem very preachy. And I didn't like that to be a good guy, you sometimes have to chose the options that you believe in it too. Atheïsts are less violent than religious people you know <_<
So while I don't mind religion, I would like to be able to be able to be pure good without having to say I believe in something, or to be an evil religious bastard.

[Yootje]

Mr. Gerbz wrote...

Stanley Woo wrote...

Questions.

Yeah, it did seem very preachy. And I didn't like that to be a good guy, you sometimes have to chose the options that you believe in it too. Atheïsts are less violent than religious people you know <_<
So while I don't mind religion, I would like to be able to be able to be pure good without having to say I believe in something, or to be an evil religious bastard.

I forgot that. I remember playing a Dalish Elf, so I wanted to chose all the options that made clear I didn't believe in the Maker, and I came across as a total bastard. That might have been handled better.
But I didn't find it all that preachy. I loved the old woman reciting the chant in Denerim ^^


EDIT @ Skullsandbonesmember
I thought the Krogans revered their ancestors? But I may be making this up, it's been a long time since reading the codex

Modifié par Yootje, 20 janvier 2010 - 10:14 .

[DigitalMaster37]

@ Stanley Woo, I am a Christian so I loved the way Religion was handled in DA:O. So yeah, just so you know, given you asked.



It didn't seem too preachy to me at all.

[atheelogos]

I got the impression that a majority of humans in the ME universe weren't really religious. Maybe they're not out right atheist but certainly not religious. I got this impression because Ashley said she a lot of people are weirded out by her faith, so again I got the impression that most humans aren't religious. And personally that's how I would prefer it. But I have to admit I'm very biased on this subject, seeing as I'm an atheist.

But if Bioware wants to expand on religion in the ME universe I can understand that. The question is how to do it. I can't say I have the answer to that. I guess you could go with a fictional religion like the Dragon Age team did. I thought that approach worked out pretty well.

Modifié par atheelogos, 20 janvier 2010 - 10:14 .

[tom.bleaker]

SkullandBonesmember wrote...

Yootje wrote...

I would still LOVE to see an alien race that has no religious thoughts whatsoever. Pure, stonecold sober atheists as far back as the collective memory goes. I would be really interested to know how such a species would think, what their stories are about, etc.

I always got the vibe most if not all krogan were atheists. Anybody else with me?

Ditto. It would be nice to see an alien race of atheists that was quite so bitter and violent, though. The Dwarves in DAO were essentially atheists too...  sort of pattern Warrior race =  atheist. Be nice to break away from this connection.

[Scharfschutzen]

Mr. Gerbz wrote...

. Atheïsts are less violent than religious people you know <_<

Tell that to my grandfather, who the communist stasi made disappear, and to my  great-granduncle, who died in a gulag. 

Modifié par Scharfschutzen, 20 janvier 2010 - 10:17 .

[MarginalBeast]

Yootje wrote...

Mr. Gerbz wrote...

Stanley Woo wrote...

Questions.

Yeah, it did seem very preachy. And I didn't like that to be a good guy, you sometimes have to chose the options that you believe in it too. Atheïsts are less violent than religious people you know <_<
So while I don't mind religion, I would like to be able to be able to be pure good without having to say I believe in something, or to be an evil religious bastard.

I forgot that. I remember playing a Dalish Elf, so I wanted to chose all the options that made clear I didn't believe in the Maker, and I came across as a total bastard. That might have been handled better.
But I didn't find it all that preachy. I loved the old woman reciting the chant in Denerim ^^


EDIT @ Skullsandbonesmember
I thought the Krogans revered their ancestors? But I may be making this up, it's been a long time since reading the codex

Really? I played a Dalish elf and I never felt that way. Then again, my character was more of an agnostic and didn't really believe or disbelieve in the Maker or even the religion of her own people, so it wasn't that big of a deal.

[casedawgz]

I played a dwarf, and i was a total dick to the dwarf who wanted to open a chantry.

[saMoorai]

it was interesting though it was a little to similar to Christianity ( talking about the Maker in DA:O)

but im okay with you guys putting religion in your games and i would like to thank you for giving me the option on my Characters beliefs and was pleasantly surprised that i can make Shepard Atheist (like me)

[Lightice_av]

I would still LOVE to see an alien race that has no religious thoughts whatsoever. Pure, stonecold sober atheists as far back as the collective memory goes. I would be really interested to know how such a species would think, what their stories are about, etc.

There's a couple of tribes in Africa with no religious belief whatsoever, including no concept of afterlife. From what I've read of them, they're perfectly balanced and OK people, and remarkably peaceful to boot. The thing is, atheism doesn't automatically equal scientific rationalism.

[ksauder]

Stanley Woo wrote...

I'm not sure if it's been brought up already, but how do players here feel about the way religion was handled in Dragon Age: Origins--a fictional monotheism which could very easily be compared to real-world religions?

And to keep it on topic for the forum: What kind of religion system do you think would fit in well with the Mass Effect universe? What role would a modern-day Earth religion deity play for a space-faring, alien-meeting human?

I think that the monotheism of Dragon Age humans was interesting and I loved the ancester and Paragon worship of the Dwarves, the pantheon worship of the elves was also well integrated. I think it allowed for character depth and a nuance to the world as a whole.

On the topic of Mass Effect, I don't think that Christianity or Islam would necessarily keep as much of a hold as they do today. I think Judaism would be maintained and strengthen relative to the other two monotheisms. Sikhism seems like a faith which would become stronger within a society that has discovered life throughout the universe and is engaged in militarism. Buddhism is another faith which the codex states is being embraced by Turians. I think that its philosophies are something which would be embraced by a race which is ever expanding and needs a way to center itself.

Modifié par ksauder, 20 janvier 2010 - 10:28 .

[Yootje]

Lightice_av wrote...

I would still LOVE to see an alien race that has no religious thoughts whatsoever. Pure, stonecold sober atheists as far back as the collective memory goes. I would be really interested to know how such a species would think, what their stories are about, etc.

There's a couple of tribes in Africa with no religious belief whatsoever, including no concept of afterlife. From what I've read of them, they're perfectly balanced and OK people, and remarkably peaceful to boot. The thing is, atheism doesn't automatically equal scientific rationalism.

I didn't mean to imply it did, that's why I would be so interested in those people. You don't happen to know the names of those tribes?

[Lightice_av]

Yootje wrote...

I didn't mean to imply it did, that's why I would be so interested in those people. You don't happen to know the names of those tribes?

Sorry, can't remember. But hunt down the last few National Geographics - one of them had an article of one such tribe.