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[denouement1]

Stanley Woo wrote...

I'm not sure if it's been brought up already, but how do players here feel about the way religion was handled in Dragon Age: Origins--a fictional monotheism which could very easily be compared to real-world religions?

It is interesting and engaging? Does it seem preachy or modeled too closely on a real-world religion? Did you even notice? Did you want to learn more about it?

And to keep it on topic for the forum: What kind of religion system do you think would fit in well with the Mass Effect universe? What role would a modern-day Earth religion deity play for a space-faring, alien-meeting human?

And thank you all for keeping it mature and professional. I appreciate that.

I thought DAO was a little preachy for my personal tastes, but I think it fit fairly well in the game. Additionally, I would have like to have seen more "factions" (a la. Mormon, Catholicism, Protestantism, Judaism, Islam) and a larger group of people of the Elven-type polytheistic views.

As far as Mass Effect:

I think being able to have religion play a bigger roll in Mass Effect would be cool, but could get very complicated and conscious very quickly. If you included real world religions you could very easily offend people and if you created fake religions people would just read into them and equate them with some real life religion and be offend anyway.

The best implementation of religions in a game I've played was Civ IV. All of the religions all had the same features so no religion had more powerful this or less powerful that, as to try to make a rock-paper-scissors balance. 

If you did have religions the best way I could think to implement it would be to have 4 or 6 options and have one group be polar opposite from another. This would allow you to work with 3 (in the case of 4) or 5 (in the case of 6) of the religious groups while they last one you are always in conflict with. All of the groups would have to used the same style of weapons and have the same rewards, other wise it could cause people to read into the religion and what type of loot you get and make judgments on what you are trying to "say" as a game developer. Beyond that I don't know that it should have a huge impact.

Don't get me wrong, I love the idea of having a fully realized religious system with lots of options, lots of differences, and lots of conflict. I'm just a little afraid of the talking heads showing up and calling for censorship or whatever.

[the_devils_aid]

Stanley Woo wrote...

I'm not sure if it's been brought up already, but how do players here feel about the way religion was handled in Dragon Age: Origins--a fictional monotheism which could very easily be compared to real-world religions?

It is interesting and engaging? Does it seem preachy or modeled too closely on a real-world religion? Did you even notice? Did you want to learn more about it?

And to keep it on topic for the forum: What kind of religion system do you think would fit in well with the Mass Effect universe? What role would a modern-day Earth religion deity play for a space-faring, alien-meeting human?

And thank you all for keeping it mature and professional. I appreciate that.

i personally think that a fantasy game that has a new religion in its adds to the depth of the game greatly. it would complety destroy the fantasy aspect if the first church you saw had a giant cross and handed out bibles.

the one in DA:O was interesting, however it would have been much more so if your " codex" had a full on copy of the religous texts or a bullet point summary. for the most part you just got excerpts, hwich leads me to belive that you have this well thought out


and if your wondering what religion or type would fit well with a space faring society, id suggest looking up Stargate or Ori

[Bob the Primarch]

I generally like it. The few games that have used a fictional religion are usually smart about it. I think it adds another layer to the world; making it that much more realistic. However, can it become preachy? Yes. The talent that exists in Bioware will probably not allow it to appear this way, but Bioware's efforts might inspire less gifted developers to try it. Ultimatley ruining it for everyone else.

[Palathas]

Stanley Woo wrote...

I'm not sure if it's been brought up already, but how do players here feel about the way religion was handled in Dragon Age: Origins--a fictional monotheism which could very easily be compared to real-world religions?

It is interesting and engaging? Does it seem preachy or modeled too closely on a real-world religion? Did you even notice? Did you want to learn more about it?

And to keep it on topic for the forum: What kind of religion system do you think would fit in well with the Mass Effect universe? What role would a modern-day Earth religion deity play for a space-faring, alien-meeting human?

And thank you all for keeping it mature and professional. I appreciate that.

Hmm, I wouldn't say I actively hunted for information on the religion in DA:O but I found that it certainly had a place in the story and lore of the setting. I find religion or similar beliefs can add depth to games and/or stories so long as they aren't the main focus.

I thought there were religions hinted at in the first game, Ash had a spiritual belief similar to real life although there were no actual specifics, she just believed in a higher power. The Hanar seem to be very taken by the "Enkindlers" (spelling?) and the Geth were suspected of worshiping the Reapers, although I'm not sure if they saw the Reapers as deities or just something to aspire to. The Asari keep mentioning the Godess as well.
If Mass Effect were to include a religious aspect then, from what has already been seen, I wouldn't expect to see one galactic religion. If there was then it would certainly be in it's infancy.

[dustin_ds3000]

im Atheist and having played dragon age love how the religion is done, its like really life. but in the Mass Effect universe i think Atheism should be the majority

[Aratham Darksight]

Stanley Woo wrote...

I'm not sure if it's been brought up already, but how do players here feel about the way religion was handled in Dragon Age: Origins--a fictional monotheism which could very easily be compared to real-world religions?

It is interesting and engaging? Does it seem preachy or modeled too closely on a real-world religion? Did you even notice? Did you want to learn more about it?

I really appreciated what Dragon Age did by avoiding the typical fantasy religions where the truth about divine matters is known for a fact and religious differences amount to choosing a different side. It was interesting and added to the believability of the setting that there were a variety of competing beliefs, including splits within the same religion. I didn't see anything I felt was preachy and I tend to be allergic to that sort of thing.

However, what I think really made the DA religions interesting for me was how each of them tied into some important mystery about the setting, like the true history of the Elves or the Black City. It gave you the feeling that each of these apparently mutually exclusive beliefs had at least some truth to them and delving into them might reveal important truths about the here and now as well as the spiritual.

Even more interesting to me though, were the forum reactions to it all. Some people just bought into the Andastrian religion completely and believed any wild claim by its most extreme adherents without a doubt. They seemed honestly surprised at the idea that something authoritatively claimed by an Andrastian might not be literally and objectively true.

Others of course went the silly route of assuming that the Chantry was pure evil and everything it claimed is necessarily wrong, but they were a lot less surprising or interesting.

[RyuKazuha]

tom.bleaker wrote...

RyuKazuha wrote...

tom.bleaker wrote...

RyuKazuha wrote...

I would assume, most of the people in that future wouldn't actually deny the existence of some kind of force or being beyond our imagination, since they'd have be confronted with so many things that felt out of possibility before; thus turning from atheists to actual agnostics.

Possibly, theism and atheism merge into some kind of spiritualism, abandoning the thought of a personal god, but taking into account that there is something, that connects everything throughout the universe.

By your reasoning, the Reapers are proof of the existence of god(s)/higher power(s).

The Reapers are indeed proof of some existence beyond our imagination. However, Sovereign was destroyed, entirely failing for the role of a god, as a "real" godlike existence cannot be killed by any means we mere creatures could even think of.

I guess the Norse gods weren't gods then? One word: Ragnarok.

I only bring up the Reapers to disagree with your line of reasoning. I wouldn't suddenly become agnostic because I discovered my imagination was limited, I would just expand the scope of my imaginings.  Just because I don't understand, say the stock market or quantum entanglement, dosen't mean those things are run by magic... it just means I don't understand them. 

Well, good question. The norse gods where never killed by the means of humans as i know. If I am wrong about that, than your thesis would be proven right, as they wouldn't fall under my definition of "gods".

Also, i never stated everyone would become and agnostic, if he enters that kind of situation, however, I assume that most atheists would somewhat reconsider their view. Some may come to your point of view, some may come to share mine, some may even become theists at this point (also theists may abandon their believes and just cling to science).

However, i still !assume! a large part of the future population would neither deny any kind of "god" nor pledge themselves to some kind of personalized "god-entity".

[JarodKane]

Not to be a ******....but why are you talking in third person Handheld?? lol



But on to the subject of this thread. I think religions in games are fine like people have said before as long as they don't force it upon you or preach. Assassin's Creed 2 does this well, ME1 as well. I like the aspect of religion in games in adds to the realistic feel of the world. That's how I see it personally.

[NKKKK]

So Stanley, all in all, it was mostly good, but we could use more depth and other religions.

[atheelogos]

ResidentNoob wrote...

To me, Ashley revealing that she was Christian instantly sold her to me as a person; not a video game character; someone who could have real thoughts and feelings. She instantly became believeable because of it.

I think it would be nice to hear about other religions in the Mass effect universe; maybe the Krogan religion, because all that we heard about it was from Wrex saying about the burial site: 'The skulls of our dead laid bare to remind us where we come from, and where we all go'. Thane's religion could also be interesting to hear about.

I don't believe she ever said she was Christian. She just said she believes in God. Nothing more.

[atheelogos]

trekkieb47 wrote...

I actually enjoyed Ashley's take on religion. She believes in God, but now that humans are in space, it only strengthens her belief in a higher power.

I remember reading the the ME novels that when the Prothean ruins were discovered on Mars, many Earth religions were rocked to the core, new ones sprang up, and many scrambled to explain them. I would be interested to see how current religions evolved in the ME universe.

It would be interesting to see bioware's take on it. But if they do it it shouldn't be human exclusive. The other religions would have to include aliens in the new found doctrine.

[atheelogos]

Commodore Q wrote...

its scary really after playing Dragon Age, ive adopted new saying from it, a number of times ive blerted out "oh thank the maker" oh the looks i get from my friends lmao

[Medhia Nox]

Stanley Woo wrote...

I'm not sure if it's been brought up already, but how do players here feel about the way religion was handled in Dragon Age: Origins--a fictional monotheism which could very easily be compared to real-world religions?

It is interesting and engaging? Does it seem preachy or modeled too closely on a real-world religion? Did you even notice? Did you want to learn more about it?

And to keep it on topic for the forum: What kind of religion system do you think would fit in well with the Mass Effect universe? What role would a modern-day Earth religion deity play for a space-faring, alien-meeting human?

And thank you all for keeping it mature and professional. I appreciate that.

Concerning Dragon Age: ((Game Spoilers to provide examples))

I felt that the religion of the Maker was very well done. I enjoy parallels to our own world. I believe that art must have value beyond itself. To me, that means that art (in this case Dragon Age) must comment about the real world. It must bring forth emotion and cause reflection.

I really enjoyed Andraste's part in it (I felt it paralleled Christ's role). I also enjoyed how the various "truths" differed though they all seem to have genuine background in the history of the planet.

The fact that Andraste's Ashes are found when "Mankind" is in dire need, but vanish again (the High Dragon's attacks) in the prologue after it becomes a religious sight was also really well done. The "Hand of the Maker" without it being miraculous and magical.

Leliana is awsome as well. I was never quite sure she was crazy. I found myself questioning whether or not she really "did" recieve messages from the Maker. What I loved was that she tells you flat out "No, I did not hear a voice. It was a feeling." I've had certain experiences - nothing like this character, but still - the impression is that "voices" don't happen, but the feeling that something was compelling me to action was real.

1) Is it interesting and engaging? Yes.

2) Do you want to learn more about it? Yes, and I would also like to learn that there are other faiths within the world. Perhaps based off of Hinduism, Islam (the Qunari?), or Taosim.

3) Does it seem preachy or too modelled after real world religion. No, it does not seem too preachy. There are preachy NPCs, yes, but they're supposed to be that way. As far as real world religions, it seems very "Christian" in its flavor - as I mentioned, other religions are as deep and full of flavor. I would like to see more of them.

-----

Religion in Mass Effect: 

I think religion is necissary in any science fiction. Religion is a fact of life. Whether that is good or bad is up to the individual. It isn't going to go away once we reach the stars - the first poet or artist that gets into space is going to start the whole thing over again. I believe religion is about the human experience - God, is the All Human - where we go, "God" will go.

Here are some thoughts on what our God(s) would become: ((please, this is ALL opinion - I'm trying to answer Mr. Woo's questions. Disagree all you want, but please don't attack.))

- Hinduism: I don't think this religion would have any problem with aliens or their gods. A classic misconception is that Hinduism is polythiestic. It really isn't - even though it has multiple gods. Hindus believe that every god, is one God. They can worship the Christian God, or the Muslim God without offending their sensibilities (and they can practice the holidays too!) 

- Christianity: I think they would try to bring the word of Christ into the stars. Christianity has a lot to do with following a "Prime" example of humanity. That is, of course, Christ. If Christians can teach aliens about Christ, then they too can learn the "Good News". 

There are many others - and I could go on and on, but I'm not looking to bore.

So, I'll just say that I don't think any of the others would have a problem either. God, is universal in the minds of a faithful person, and by the time Mass Effect takes place I think humanity will have already come to grips with the idea of aliens. If we find them in real life I think the average person - while fascinated - won't be surprised.

You might have a lot of people jumping ship to alien religions. The idea being "Hey, they're super advanced aliens - they must know more than us!" 

You would definately have a large population of "radicals" that would likely join things like Terra Firma and Cerberus. Religion, sadly, does not hold up well to change. It's strength and its weaknesses lie in tradition. When tradition calcifies (and it does not NEED too) then it becomes damaging. These people would likely see aliens as opponents to God.

Anyway - religion is kinda my "thing" so I'll ramble endlessly.

[Zandilar]

Stanley Woo wrote...

I'm not sure if it's been brought up already, but how do players here feel about the way religion was handled in Dragon Age: Origins--a fictional monotheism which could very easily be compared to real-world religions?

It is interesting and engaging? Does it seem preachy or modeled too closely on a real-world religion? Did you even notice? Did you want to learn more about it?

And to keep it on topic for the forum: What kind of religion system do you think would fit in well with the Mass Effect universe? What role would a modern-day Earth religion deity play for a space-faring, alien-meeting human?

And thank you all for keeping it mature and professional. I appreciate that.

I wasn't totally impressed by the religion of the Maker. But that's just because I absolutely loathe and detest religions that feel the need to try to convert people (in fact, that is the core belief of that religion - they're bound to spread the so called Chant of Light to all corners of the world, just to draw the Maker's attention back to the world). The religion of the Maker is not past Crusading to force people to convert at sword point, either, or keeping people prisoner or killing them just because they do not agree with their views (on magic in particular here). I was also not happy with the way my PCs had to dance around the religion to keep Leliana happy, and the fact that in many cases, speaking out against the Chantry would often be the evil choice in a dialogue.

On the other hand, that it made me feel all that means it certainly had an impact on the game. I was also disappoointed that there wasn't more about Elven religion in the game aside from the codex entries about their gods. It would have made a nice balance. I haven't played a Dalish Elf through the game yet, I wonder if they can talk about their religion with Leliana?

As for Mass Effect. We have a great many man made marvels and miracles already in our world, and that hasn't stopped us from believing in something greater. I honestly don't think that becoming a space-faring race will change that, even with meeting Aliens thrown into the mix. I think a few religions would widen their scope and adapt (particularly Christianity, since it already has lots and lots and lots and LOTS of sects, and no two of them believe in exactly the same things), others might fall by the wayside because their central tenants couldn't adapt (religions that specifically deny the existance of aliens, for example, which might include some of the more stricter sects of Christanity).

If religion is going to be addressed seriously in a game like ME, more than one religion should be represented. Showing only Ashley believing in an almost explicitly Christian god, gives the impression that there is only one religion for Humanity, which is patently a ridiculous idea (if it were to be the One True Religion, we'd all be believers by now). A realistic portrayal of humanity of the future would necessarily include more religions than just Christanity. Babylon 5 is an excellent example of how it should be done. There was even one episode, Parliment of Dreams,  where the commander of B5 (Sinclair) introduced a number of holy men and women to the main alien diplomats, it was really quite well done.

Modifié par Zandilar, 20 janvier 2010 - 11:17 .

[atheelogos]

Harrod200 wrote...

Stanley Woo wrote...

I'm not sure if it's been brought up already, but how do players here feel about the way religion was handled in Dragon Age: Origins--a fictional monotheism which could very easily be compared to real-world religions?

It is interesting and engaging? Does it seem preachy or modeled too closely on a real-world religion? Did you even notice? Did you want to learn more about it?

And to keep it on topic for the forum: What kind of religion system do you think would fit in well with the Mass Effect universe? What role would a modern-day Earth religion deity play for a space-faring, alien-meeting human?

And thank you all for keeping it mature and professional. I appreciate that.

As for what sort of religion would play well in the MEU, look back 200 years now and see how modern religions have evolved since then; christianity for example has in general become more secular, and the main focus of the religion has shifted, emphasising some sections of the book while conviniently forgetting about others.

While a christianity-derived religion would likely still bear much semblance to modern day religion, there would still be quite a lot of difference (location of heaven & hell, attitude to non-humans, sexuality, gender jobs).

Your post speaks the truth I should written that myself. The rise of secularism has grown in the western world. And its only rising. If they were going to add more religion they would have to take that fact into account, and project out accordingly

[atheelogos]

ReDSH1FT wrote...

I would be personally embarassed if I was a human living in that universe and I saw a pastor preaching things to some Turians and Salarians. I would then step over and politely say to the aliens that we do not all believe in magic, and this man's superstitions do not in any way represent Humanity. Please ignore the crazy man and keep walking. *Dials C-SEC* Yes there's another preacher in the Presidium... How do they keep sneaking in here?

:happy: Good post. It made me laugh.

[Daerog]

Ashley said she believed in God, doesn't mean she's a Christian.

Earth's religions weren't brought up much in ME, God was mentioned, Confusionism, Budhism, but not much else from what I can recall.

Asari believe in the Goddess or a unifying philosophy for the most part, Turians believe in a kind of literal spirit of a society or group (the connection between close individuals), krogan revere their ancestors but don't worship as far as we know, Salarians have a reincarnation or wheel of life kind of religion for the most part, right? Those are just their major religions though, could have many others. Oh, and the Enkindlers, duh.

Representing all religion in ME would be horrifying, even if was only all the major human ones.

[Medhia Nox]

Actually - Biotics alone would make religion far more pronounced in the Mass Effect universe.



Just because it's Sci-Fi magic doesn't make it non-magical.

[Willowhugger]

I honestly want some acknowledgment of religion in the Mass Effect universe. I always held Star Trek in contempt because it was an unrealistic and insulting location that somehow religion would disappear in 400 years. It's why I liked Babylon 5. It nicely acknowledged religious individuals existed alongside atheists in the future. So occasional nods to people attending Church or having religious beliefs would nice.



Ironically, I assumed Ashley was Jewish.



I also think inserting a "fake" religion like "The Maker" in a Real Life universe like Mass Effect would be kind of insulting and stupid. Of course, I'm religious in life and biased. I get into a lot of arguments with people who assume religion is getting less prevalent in modern society. All I can do is look at them strangely before going "What are you on?"

[Whailor]

I am not a religious person myself and thus I don't care about religion. However I also let other people believe in whatever they want and whatever they call it, main thing is - they must follow my orders out there. If I go in with someone and tell that someone to blow some buggers up because they're on my way and that person starts to mumble something about their beliefs and some such, they're gonna stay in the ship or camp from that moment on. When I spoke with Ashley, I let her talk about her faith and beliefs and religion, simply because it was a polite thing to do. I didn't care much about it but when off-duty, the crew can have their fancies. "Out there", however, I'm the one they'll listen to and I'm the one who's orders they'll follow.

[Pinkflamingo22]

I hope in the future religion is replaced by personal beliefs and spirtuality because no good comes from religion. Ever.