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[valium]

dude took a rocket to the face, get off his back

[TheMyron]

valium wrote...

dude took a rocket to the face, get off his back

Now he is uglier than ever, now wonder Tyrannosaurus Wrex paid more attention to Liara during Sur'Kesh.

[DuskWanderer]

cap and gown wrote...


I have a question about that: On Priority: Earth, right after you take out the AAA gun with the Cain and the Banshee shows up, I used the Cain on her. Then I looked over and one of my squadies (might have been Liara) was standing stock still, arms to her side like a manequin. Have you seen that? Is that what happens when they get caught in the Cain blast? (instead of falling down.)

Not sure. Maybe you hit the Banshee dead on. I shot the Cain at the floor so the Banshee would get caught in the blast, I didn't want to miss. 

[brad2240]

I'm surprised anybody thinks Liara is not overpowered. She outright trivializes all mooks, up to an including Phantoms. With a biotic Shepard it just becomes disgustingly easy, but even on my current Engineer playthrough she is dominating everything when I take her. Most of my games, I don't take her much for this very reason.

Her low health is her only drawback, she does fall down a bit more than others but not excessively so. Even then, it's only a minor annoyance since medigel is never really in short supply. I also noticed that she seemed to die less when I switched her from SMG to pistol. Seemed to curb her Rambo tendencies, but I didn't really test it to confirm that theory.

[cap and gown]

brad2240 wrote...

 I also noticed that she seemed to die less when I switched her from SMG to pistol. Seemed to curb her Rambo tendencies, but I didn't really test it to confirm that theory.

Liara Staloni.

[brad2240]

cap and gown wrote...

Liara Staloni.

Awesome!

[Abraham_uk]

 The difference between insanity being tricky and insanity being a walk in the park comes down to how well you exploit the games mechanics.

How familiar are you with power combos?
How familiar are you with enemy movements?
How familiar are you with the cooldown system?
How familiar are you with stat bonuses?

If you are proficient in all of the above and play with some degree of strategy, Liara T'Soni will never fall in combat.
Okay she probably might a few times. She does have low health and tends to forget this when she rushes in guns blazing.

Liara's powers are not inherently overpowered. It's the combos with Shepard and Shepard's other squadmate that makes Liara overpowered. Her lack of health does somewhat mitigate her power as a squadmate. For a biotic, having Liara, Javik or Kaidan on your team is a must for anyone who want's to take full advantage of the game's mechanics.



To learn these handy tricks, here is a useful thread.

Modifié par Abraham_uk, 16 septembre 2013 - 05:15 .

[DuskWanderer]

brad2240 wrote...

I'm surprised anybody thinks Liara is not overpowered. She outright trivializes all mooks, up to an including Phantoms. With a biotic Shepard it just becomes disgustingly easy, but even on my current Engineer playthrough she is dominating everything when I take her. Most of my games, I don't take her much for this very reason.

Her low health is her only drawback, she does fall down a bit more than others but not excessively so. Even then, it's only a minor annoyance since medigel is never really in short supply. I also noticed that she seemed to die less when I switched her from SMG to pistol. Seemed to curb her Rambo tendencies, but I didn't really test it to confirm that theory.

I find all of the characters trivializ mooks. They just do it without dying. It's not really a point in Liara's favor.

[valium]

Abraham_uk wrote...

 The difference between insanity being tricky and insanity being a walk in the park comes down to how well you exploit the games mechanics.

How familiar are you with power combos?
How familiar are you with enemy movements?
How familiar are you with the cooldown system?
How familiar are you with stat bonuses?

If you are proficient in all of the above and play with some degree of strategy, Liara T'Soni will never fall in combat.
Okay she probably might a few times. She does have low health and tends to forget this when she rushes in guns blazing.

Liara's powers are not inherently overpowered. It's the combos with Shepard and Shepard's other squadmate that makes Liara overpowered. Her lack of health does somewhat mitigate her power as a squadmate. For a biotic, having Liara, Javik or Kaidan on your team is a must for anyone who want's to exploit game mechanics.

Exploiting power combos is to Mass Effect 3, what cheat codes are to old school games.

To learn these handy exploits, here is a useful thread.

exploits? wat?

the game straight up tell you about biotic explosions, there is no secret, there is nothing being exploited.

[Abraham_uk]

True. There is no secret.

But it is still a game mechanic that can be exploited to make the game easier.
Not really cheating.

[cap and gown]

Just a follow up on Liara's initial stats: 200 health/500 Barrier. Everyone else starts at 500/500.

[Br3admax]

Play Silver in Multiplayer. That's harder than Insanity. Once you get used to that, you can play any level of difficulty in ME3.

[capn233]

If you micro the squad it isn't too difficult to keep Liara alive.

Really her low health isn't significantly different than the rest of the squad's health. None of them tank all that well except for Wrex. It mainly comes down to positioning.

[brad2240]

DuskWanderer wrote...

I find all of the characters trivializ mooks. They just do it without dying. It's not really a point in Liara's favor.

No, everybody does not trivialize each and every encounter like Liara does. They're all good, but she can easily become the focus of every fight. Insta-cast Singularity with ridiculously short CD is just that good.

All squadmates die at some point because they're all basically stupid. Liara's lower health is a minor annoyance at best with even the minimum amount of micromanagement.

[SNascimento]

Abraham_uk wrote...

 The difference between insanity being tricky and insanity being a walk in the park comes down to how well you exploit the games mechanics.

How familiar are you with power combos?
How familiar are you with enemy movements?
How familiar are you with the cooldown system?
How familiar are you with stat bonuses?

If you are proficient in all of the above and play with some degree of strategy, Liara T'Soni will never fall in combat.
Okay she probably might a few times. She does have low health and tends to forget this when she rushes in guns blazing.

Liara's powers are not inherently overpowered. It's the combos with Shepard and Shepard's other squadmate that makes Liara overpowered. Her lack of health does somewhat mitigate her power as a squadmate. For a biotic, having Liara, Javik or Kaidan on your team is a must for anyone who want's to exploit game mechanics.

Exploiting power combos is to Mass Effect 3, what cheat codes are to old school games.

To learn these handy exploits, here is a useful thread.

This is a good post.

Playing with a Vanguard + Liara + Javik all you'll see are biotic explosions. I could detonate 4 in a row sometimes. It's actually one of ME3's combat system major problems. It doesn't matter having awesome enemies like the Phantoms if they are going to be too busy being "bioticly" detonated. Actually, if it wasn't for multiplayer, I wouldn't even be aware how great enemies they are. 

Also, one advantage squadmate have over Shepard is that their powers are instantaneous, whichi means enemies cannot dodge them. That adds to the problem above. 

Modifié par SNascimento, 15 septembre 2013 - 02:57 .

[spockjedi]

Abraham_uk wrote...

For a biotic, having Liara, Javik or Kaidan on your team is a must for anyone who want's to exploit game mechanics.

I wouldn't say that if Shepard is an Adept. Double Pull + Double Throw and Warp + Throw eliminated the need of biotic squadmates, even on Insanity. Tali and Ashley were my favorite squadmates during the game.
When I played as Sentinel and Vanguard, Javik and Kaidan helped a lot though.

Modifié par spockjedi, 15 septembre 2013 - 08:04 .

[valium]

Abraham_uk wrote...

True. There is no secret.

But it is still a game mechanic that can be exploited to make the game easier.
Not really cheating.

exploiting is using the system TO CHEAT. taking advantage of a correctly functioning game mechanic is called 'playing the game.'

[rashie]

valium wrote...

Abraham_uk wrote...

True. There is no secret.

But it is still a game mechanic that can be exploited to make the game easier.
Not really cheating.

exploiting is using the system TO CHEAT. taking advantage of a correctly functioning game mechanic is called 'playing the game.'

I prefer the term "clever use of game mechanics";)

Modifié par rashie, 15 septembre 2013 - 08:25 .

[cap and gown]

I just call it understanding the game. It seems fairly obvious that BW wanted and encouraged people to use combos. It is something that rewards learning the game. I see lots of people saying insanity is super easy. I wouldn't say quite that, but it is very, very doable if you know combos. But lots of people don't and until they figure it out insanity seems really, really hard. I watched a youtube insanity playthrough by someone who had not yet figured out combos (he was playing an engineer) and it was definitely harder than it needed to be. Even normal was difficult for me when I first got the game (ME3 was my first), but after familiarizing myself with the game mechanics insanity became my preferred setting just so I would at least be somewhat challenged. (not to say I always play insanity, sometimes I drop the difficulty when I want to breeze through some sections to get to something more interesting.)

[brad2240]

spockjedi wrote...

Abraham_uk wrote...

For a biotic, having Liara, Javik or Kaidan on your team is a must for anyone who want's to exploit game mechanics.

I wouldn't say that if Shepard is an Adept. Double Pull + Double Throw and Warp + Throw eliminated the need of biotic squadmates, even on Insanity. Tali and Ashley were my favorite squadmates during the game.
When I played as Sentinel and Vanguard, Javik and Kaidan helped a lot though.

Totally agree. In my Adept playthoughs I never use Liara unless I have to. She feels very redundant and Shep can toss out the BEs just fine on his own.

[Abraham_uk]

Man I love those combos.

Biotic explosions, fire explosions, cryo explosions and tech bursts.

The word cheat was just plain incorrect.
You're not cheating or exploiting by using powers in combination of each other to perform combos.
That is how you're meant to play the game.


Part of what makes using Liara powerful is how you combine her abilities with those of other squadmates. Her key ability is warp.

Warp sets up and detonates biotic combos.
Warp also detonates fire explosions, cryo explosions and tech bursts.

If you take full advantage of the combos then characters with low health ratings (such as Liara and Tali) will not fall so easily.

[DuskWanderer]

[quote]brad2240 wrote...
[/quote]

No, everybody does not trivialize each and every encounter like Liara does. They're all good, but she can easily become the focus of every fight. Insta-cast Singularity with ridiculously short CD is just that good.

All squadmates die at some point because they're all basically stupid. Liara's lower health is a minor annoyance at best with even the minimum amount of micromanagement. [/quote]

Except on enemies with shields. Or armored foes. Or foes with barriers, until you get rid of them. Guardians are hit or miss. So, basically, against Husks, Cannibals, or Assault Troopers. Against Ravagers, Banshees, Geth Primes, she might as well be made of kibble. There's infinitely more trouble with them, then there are with the scrubs. 

You say "All Squadmates die at somepoint", yet that never happened to me with James. It never happened with Kaidan, it never happened with Ashley, and it happened once with Garrus. On Insanity, more than one playthrough, I will add. Liara, I lost track after a dozen. even on Hardcore, Liara died a lot (Only other person who died was Tali due to a sunch kill.

Liara takes a lot of effort to work with, effort better spent with Shepard. Or anyone else, who doesn't die.

[capn233]

Nobody said Liara was great if you press one button over and over. We said she is great if you micro her, and she is.

I don't think managing her is very complicated. You have Singularity for trash mobs, and you should have Warp hotkeyed for basically everything else. You did invest in Warp, right? It is her best power and can be used on every single unit in the game. It will prime any target for a biotic explosion, and it is also a debuff and good anti-armor and barrier power.

You can even use Singularity against shielded units if you want. It isn't like you don't have to strip their shields if you didn't have Liara on the team. You have to get through shields anyway and you can do that with weapons fire, Shepard's powers, or the other squad member's powers. So stick the unit with a Singularity, then strip their shields.

Pretty much none of the squad tanks all that well on Insanity except for Wrex. And their tanking is directly correlated with how aggressive Shepard is and how fast you clear enemies. Is Liara the most squishy? Yes. But if you take any time whatsoever to position her (which you should be doing with all squad members), then she will be fine.

Vega is a semi-tank and has a DR power and decent hp, but this is offset by the fact that his powers are much less useful than Liara's. Incendiary Ammo is alright, but is useless to Soldier or Vanguard Shepard, and is 50% for Shepard if you run squad variant for the other classes.

For Ash and Garrus they are a bit better than Liara if you take health evolutions, but you give up decent weapon or power damage bonuses that way and really it isn't worthwhile. It is better to go damage and micro them somewhat. Even so, Ash and Garrus do not have comparable power spam to Liara. Ash can spam Inferno's for a brief amount of time, but they are finite.

EDI got a boost from change to tech combos, and she has a DR power, but she can't spam powers quite as fast either.

Javik also tanks better than Liara, but only his Slam actually has bonus to combo detonations, and it is less forgiving for setting up combos since it has a short window. Pull is the most situational CC power in the game, and Dark Channel doesn't exactly have a rapid cooldown. Lift Grenades are good, but finite.

Tali isn't exactly resilient either, unless you were to spam Energy Drain on shielded units, or try to protect her with Defense Drone. Her skillset is also pretty lacking outside of the Rannoch arc.

Modifié par capn233, 17 septembre 2013 - 11:47 .

[DuskWanderer]

Warp is basically a toned-down version of Reave. Why take the burger when I can have the steak? Fast cooldowns are irrelevant if I only need one, or if I need to stop what I'm doing to medi-gel Liara.

As for tanking, I can only go with what the game gave me: Liara died over a dozen times on Insanity. EDI came in second, she died three times.

[brad2240]

DuskWanderer wrote...

Except on enemies with shields. Or armored foes. Or foes with barriers, until you get rid of them. Guardians are hit or miss. So, basically, against Husks, Cannibals, or Assault Troopers. Against Ravagers, Banshees, Geth Primes, she might as well be made of kibble. There's infinitely more trouble with them, then there are with the scrubs. 

You say "All Squadmates die at somepoint", yet that never happened to me with James. It never happened with Kaidan, it never happened with Ashley, and it happened once with Garrus. On Insanity, more than one playthrough, I will add. Liara, I lost track after a dozen. even on Hardcore, Liara died a lot (Only other person who died was Tali due to a sunch kill.

Liara takes a lot of effort to work with, effort better spent with Shepard. Or anyone else, who doesn't die.

It sounds like you think Liara can't do anything but spam Singularity.

You should be mixing that up with Stasis, and she'll neutralize every non-armored enemy in the game. Armored enemies she debuffs, or sets up/detonates biotics for Shep and other squaddies. She's very versatile, if you choose to take advantage of it.

I say all squadmates die because they will inevitably do something stupid like wander in front of a turret or sit on a grenade. Some micro on the player's part does a lot to lessen this but it still happens. With proper micro and proper use of her powers, Liara does not die significantly more than the others in my experience.

Warp is basically a toned-down version of Reave.

I don't agree with this. There may be some overlap but the powers do different things and neither is a weaker version of the other.