169 réponses à ce sujet

[RedCaesar97]

DuskWanderer wrote...
Warp is basically a toned-down version of Reave. Why take the burger when I can have the steak? Fast cooldowns are irrelevant if I only need one, or if I need to stop what I'm doing to medi-gel Liara.

Are you (a) comparing Liara's Warp and Kaidan's Reave here, or are you ( comparing the Adept's/Sentinel's Warp to the Reave bonus power, or are you © comparing the Reave bonus power to Liara's Warp?

If (a) you are wrong. Liara's Warp is much better than Kaidan's Reave. Her Warp has a quicker cooldown, provides  50% biotic detonation damage, and unlike Kaidan's Reave, can hit enemies behind cover that is in the way of Shepard's line of sight.

If ( then you might have a point. But that would only apply to Sentinels and Adepts, and I am not entirely sure why you would consider taking Reave as a bonus power when you already have Warp, especially for Sentinels.

If ©, then you are comparing two things that should not be compared, namely Shepard's ability versus a squadmate's ability. Shepard's abilities will always outclass your squadmate's abilities.

[DuskWanderer]

RedCaesar97 wrote...

Are you (a) comparing Liara's Warp and Kaidan's Reave here, or are you ( comparing the Adept's/Sentinel's Warp to the Reave bonus power, or are you © comparing the Reave bonus power to Liara's Warp?

If (a) you are wrong. Liara's Warp is much better than Kaidan's Reave. Her Warp has a quicker cooldown, provides  50% biotic detonation damage, and unlike Kaidan's Reave, can hit enemies behind cover that is in the way of Shepard's line of sight.

If ( then you might have a point. But that would only apply to Sentinels and Adepts, and I am not entirely sure why you would consider taking Reave as a bonus power when you already have Warp, especially for Sentinels.

If ©, then you are comparing two things that should not be compared, namely Shepard's ability versus a squadmate's ability. Shepard's abilities will always outclass your squadmate's abilities.

I'm comparing (a), and it is you who is wrong. I've already answered the point about cool-downs (namely, I only need one, so cooldown is irrelevant.) Increasing the damage of the explosion is nice, but since Reave continues to eat the enemy after the detonation (and that is buffed by Kaidan's higher power damage), it actually ends up compensating. Also, thanks to the area evolution, your point about cover is incorrect.

One Biotic explosion with an Area Reave (better with Double Throw from a Sentinel), is significantly better than a piddly Warp. I can hit clustered foes and eat more than one (and enemies do cluster). Between that and gunfire, the enemy dies too quickly to need extra Warp.

[cap and gown]

Interesting. I am more in Red's corner about the value of Liara, but I do agree with Dusk that Kaiden's area Reeve is generally better than Liara's Warp. Liara might have a cool down advantage, but priming multiple enemies with one cast, even those behind cover, is pretty sweet. Plus, it gives Kaiden a lot more survivability. Also, if you have Kaiden use a Typhoon he is going to mow down enemies. Still, I love insta-cast, insta-hit, on-call singularity.

[brad2240]

DuskWanderer wrote...

RedCaesar97 wrote...

Are you (a) comparing Liara's Warp and Kaidan's Reave here, or are you ( comparing the Adept's/Sentinel's Warp to the Reave bonus power, or are you © comparing the Reave bonus power to Liara's Warp?

If (a) you are wrong. Liara's Warp is much better than Kaidan's Reave. Her Warp has a quicker cooldown, provides  50% biotic detonation damage, and unlike Kaidan's Reave, can hit enemies behind cover that is in the way of Shepard's line of sight.

If ( then you might have a point. But that would only apply to Sentinels and Adepts, and I am not entirely sure why you would consider taking Reave as a bonus power when you already have Warp, especially for Sentinels.

If ©, then you are comparing two things that should not be compared, namely Shepard's ability versus a squadmate's ability. Shepard's abilities will always outclass your squadmate's abilities.

I'm comparing (a), and it is you who is wrong. I've already answered the point about cool-downs (namely, I only need one, so cooldown is irrelevant.) Increasing the damage of the explosion is nice, but since Reave continues to eat the enemy after the detonation (and that is buffed by Kaidan's higher power damage), it actually ends up compensating. Also, thanks to the area evolution, your point about cover is incorrect.

One Biotic explosion with an Area Reave (better with Double Throw from a Sentinel), is significantly better than a piddly Warp. I can hit clustered foes and eat more than one (and enemies do cluster). Between that and gunfire, the enemy dies too quickly to need extra Warp.

Liara's Warp + Shepard's Throw will do more damage and do it faster than Kaiden's Reave + Shep's Throw. You don't have to worry about Reave eating the survivors because the bigger biotic explosion didn't leave any. Not to mention the extra damage done to bosses, or the fact that Warp debuffs the target so the whole team does extra damage.

Then add in the fact that Liara can set up and detonate her own biotic explosions, and do it fairly quickly. Kaiden can not. Reave is a lot less impressive without another biotic in the squad, but Warp always has a use and is great regardless of squad comp.

[cap and gown]

brad2240 wrote...

Liara's Warp + Shepard's Throw will do more damage and do it faster than Kaiden's Reave + Shep's Throw. You don't have to worry about Reave eating the survivors because the bigger biotic explosion didn't leave any. Not to mention the extra damage done to bosses, or the fact that Warp debuffs the target so the whole team does extra damage.

Then add in the fact that Liara can set up and detonate her own biotic explosions, and do it fairly quickly. Kaiden can not. Reave is a lot less impressive without another biotic in the squad, but Warp always has a use and is great regardless of squad comp.

All very good points, but somewhat situational. I find Reeve is good for groups, Warp is good for bosses. Would be cool if you had a squadie that could do both, then you could pick which one depending on the circumstances. I just did Omega and had great success with Aria's Reeve. I specced her for maximum power damage and had her use the Tempest with the power mag V. She was rated at around 200 damage per second with Reeve.

[brad2240]

cap and gown wrote...

All very good points, but somewhat situational. I find Reeve is good for groups, Warp is good for bosses. Would be cool if you had a squadie that could do both, then you could pick which one depending on the circumstances. I just did Omega and had great success with Aria's Reeve. I specced her for maximum power damage and had her use the Tempest with the power mag V. She was rated at around 200 damage per second with Reeve.

Reave is a decent enough power. I don't mean to downplay it, if I'm coming across that way. I use Kaiden frequently, and I've used Reave as a bonus several times. But if biotic explosions are an integral part of your gameplan then Warp is better hands down, IMO.

I've been playing around with Adept and Sentinel builds lately, doing different builds and squad comps from my usual. The difference in power and frequency of BEs between Liara and Kaiden is quite noticeable. Kaiden has his own strengths and is a great squadmate in his own right, but Liara is superior in both crowd control and biotic explosions.

Honestly, the best answer here may be "just use both." Liara and Kaiden make a great team combo for any Shepard. Maximum CC plus strong biotic explosions for anything that can't be CC'd, with some shield stripping to boot. A complete package with no weaknesses. It's only hampered by Kaiden's limited availability.

[capn233]

Liara's Warp is better than Reave. Basically for the reasons outlined above. Make sure you take Detonate, Expose, and Pierce...

More importantly if you are comparing Liara and Kaidan, Liara can setup and detonate her own biotic combos fairly easily with either Singularity into Warp or even Stasis into Warp. Kaidan can only self detonate Cryo Explosions (which are the worst combos since they have no multipliers for protections or in power evolutions). Javik can self detonate combos in a couple ways, either with Pull-Slam, Dark Channel - Slam or Lift Grenades on a health target. Really not ideal in either case.

[DuskWanderer]

brad2240 wrote...

Liara's Warp + Shepard's Throw will do more damage and do it faster than Kaiden's Reave + Shep's Throw. You don't have to worry about Reave eating the survivors because the bigger biotic explosion didn't leave any. Not to mention the extra damage done to bosses, or the fact that Warp debuffs the target so the whole team does extra damage.

Then add in the fact that Liara can set up and detonate her own biotic explosions, and do it fairly quickly. Kaiden can not. Reave is a lot less impressive without another biotic in the squad, but Warp always has a use and is great regardless of squad comp.

False. Warp + Throw will come out in the exact same amount of time as Reave + Throw. It would rely on the speed of Shepard's Throw. I think what you mean to say is that Liara will have a second Warp before Kaidan has a second Reave, but honestly, if the enemies aren't dead by the time Liara gets said second Warp, I'd say the problem is the player.

If "the biotic explosion didn't leave any" (also false, I just made one and had survivors) then a debuff would be useless, as would recharge time. Expose is meh, considering the enemy dies in under a few seconds with gunfire after the explosion for both characters. I refer again to Reave continuing to eat the enemy for additional damage.

As for "Liara can do her own detonations" she can only do them against Assault Troopers, Husks, and Cannibals. Her Singularity does not catch shielded foes (of which the majority of the game's foes are) until you bring down the shields (and honestly, that's what the explosions are for in addition to crowd control), or armored foes (The most dangerous). Further, her Warp will not detonate with a second Warp.

Further, comparing a character on their own is a horrible way to compare in this game. With the exception of the prologue and a few N7 missions, you are always in a party of three, and if not, you're in a party of two. Why talk about solo when you always have team dynamics? 

It is not my intention to demean Warp, it's my Adept Shep's bread and butter (as it should be), but, when it comes to detonations and teamwork dynamics? Better to have Reave. 

I admit, Liara is better at crowd control, but honestly, when it comes to crowd control, I only go for the number one, which is Shepard. 

[DuskWanderer]

brad2240 wrote...

Honestly, the best answer here may be "just use both." Liara and Kaiden make a great team combo for any Shepard. Maximum CC plus strong biotic explosions for anything that can't be CC'd, with some shield stripping to boot. A complete package with no weaknesses. It's only hampered by Kaiden's limited availability.

We can agree on this, at least. A biotic Shepard can very easily strip even the toughest enemies with Area Reave + Warp + Throw/Charge. Liara's still weak, though, unfortunately. 

[RedCaesar97]

DuskWanderer wrote...
As for "Liara can do her own detonations" she can only do them against Assault Troopers, Husks, and Cannibals.

And Marauders, Centurians, Geth Rocket Troopers, Nemesis, Phantoms, CAT6 Troopers, and CAT6 Snipers by using Stasis > Warp, but it obviously is not as quick as using Singularity > Throw.

Her Singularity does not catch shielded foes (of which the majority of the game's foes are) until you bring down the shields (and honestly, that's what the explosions are for in addition to crowd control), or armored foes (The most dangerous).

Singularity will not lift shielded foes, but it can stop most biped enemies in their tracks until they roll or jump out of it.

And as for your statement that the majority of the enemies in the game are shielded foes? I think most players would disagree. Only the Citadel DLC has foes which are all protected.

Further, her Warp will not detonate with a second Warp.

No one is disputing that.

- - -

What I believe that most of us are saying, is that Adept/Sentinel Shepard can do the following with Liara's Warp:
 Liara Warp > Shepard Throw > Shepard Warp > Shepard Throw ... and Liara will now be off cooldown.

While you can do the following with Kaidan's Reave:
 Kaidan Reave > Shepard Throw > Shepard Warp > Shepard Throw ... and Kaidan will still be on cooldown.


Granted, this matters most against enemies with large amounts of armor and shields/barriers, namely Atlases, Geth Primes, and Banshees, none of which you fight in large numbers. Against regular goons, you may not notice much of a difference depending on how you manage your squad and powers.

Just from personal experience I find Liara to be much more powerful and useful than Kaidan and I get to have Liara in my squad almost the entire game, unlike Kaidan assuming he is even alive in that playthrough.

[brad2240]

DuskWanderer wrote...

False. Warp + Throw will come out in the exact same amount of time as Reave + Throw. It would rely on the speed of Shepard's Throw. I think what you mean to say is that Liara will have a second Warp before Kaidan has a second Reave, but honestly, if the enemies aren't dead by the time Liara gets said second Warp, I'd say the problem is the player.

Is your game different from mine? Because in mine, all enemies on the map aren't in one convenient cluster all the time. Enemies can and do spawn in multiple spots so putting out multiple biotic explosions in quick succession is very powerful and clears a map much faster than a single explosion followed by some shooting and/or waiting for DoT to kill.

And the thinly veiled insult is funny, considering how many people are telling you how strong Liara is and you're the one apparently having no success with her. Maybe the problem lies with you?

If "the biotic explosion didn't leave any" (also false, I just made one and had survivors) then a debuff would be useless, as would recharge time. Expose is meh, considering the enemy dies in under a few seconds with gunfire after the explosion for both characters. I refer again to Reave continuing to eat the enemy for additional damage.

If you don't think debuffing strong enemies is a good thing, I can't help you.

As for "Liara can do her own detonations" she can only do them against Assault Troopers, Husks, and Cannibals. Her Singularity does not catch shielded foes (of which the majority of the game's foes are) until you bring down the shields (and honestly, that's what the explosions are for in addition to crowd control), or armored foes (The most dangerous). Further, her Warp will not detonate with a second Warp.

 
The majority of the game is made up of unprotected enemies. That's why it's so easy. Regardless, shields can be stripped by guns or powers, setting the target up for a biotic combo. Also, you continue to talk as if Liara has only Singularity on her skill list. She has Stasis as well, which is arguably better because it neutralizes even shielded enemies and does let her detonate them.

It's hardly reasonable to criticize a character for a supposed weakness if you ignore some of their powers.

Further, comparing a character on their own is a horrible way to compare in this game. With the exception of the prologue and a few N7 missions, you are always in a party of three, and if not, you're in a party of two. Why talk about solo when you always have team dynamics?

 

I never said anything about solo or not being on a team. I said Liara can set up and detonate her own combos, regardless of who else is on your team. You can run around with Soldier Shep and James, for example, and Liara is still capable of tossing out biotic explosions against non-armored enemies every few seconds.

If you choose to play Liara as nothing but a Singularity spammer that's your choice but you're handicapping yourself and then blaming the character for it.  

[DuskWanderer]

RedCaesar97 wrote...
And Marauders, Centurians, Geth Rocket Troopers, Nemesis, Phantoms, CAT6 Troopers, and CAT6 Snipers by using Stasis > Warp, but it obviously is not as quick as using Singularity > Throw.

If I don't have an enemy dead in Stasis by then, I'd say I have a more important problem. Stasis is useful for Liara for Shepard to make the kill, not to detonate. 

Singularity will not lift shielded foes, but it can stop most biped enemies in their tracks until they roll or jump out of it.

Stagger, I assume. Yeah, it will. So will a lot of other skills. The point of Singularity is twofold: Lock enemies and prime a detonation. I'd get better results for stagger with Overload. 

And as for your statement that the majority of the enemies in the game are shielded foes? I think most players would disagree. Only the Citadel DLC has foes which are all protected.

Only Geth troopers are unshielded, all other geth have shields. Only Assault Troopers and Guardians don't have shields, all other Cerberus does. (unless I'm mistaken, the Guardian has to be stationary for Singularity to catch him, otherwise it just staggers him).

Only Reapers have a lot of unshielded foes. And Liara's problem with Reapers is Ravagers, which kill her a lot.

What I believe that most of us are saying, is that Adept/Sentinel Shepard can do the following with Liara's Warp:
 Liara Warp > Shepard Throw > Shepard Warp > Shepard Throw ... and Liara will now be off cooldown.

While you can do the following with Kaidan's Reave:
 Kaidan Reave > Shepard Throw > Shepard Warp > Shepard Throw ... and Kaidan will still be on cooldown.

No need to spell it out, I knew what you wanted to say. What I was trying to say by the time that combo ends, your enemies are dead. What difference does it make if Liara is off cooldown if there no more enemies to attack? About the only time I could see use of that is the extreme end-game with the tons of Brutes.

Just from personal experience I find Liara to be much more powerful and useful than Kaidan and I get to have Liara in my squad almost the entire game, unlike Kaidan assuming he is even alive in that playthrough.

Personal playstyle and preference will always make such things the case. I find Liara only excels at dying, so I don't use her.

[DuskWanderer]

brad2240 wrote...

Is your game different from mine? Because in mine, all enemies on the map aren't in one convenient cluster all the time. Enemies can and do spawn in multiple spots so putting out multiple biotic explosions in quick succession is very powerful and clears a map much faster than a single explosion followed by some shooting and/or waiting for DoT to kill.

Most enemies come in waves, and come from the same area. They also like to cluster around the same cover. 

And the thinly veiled insult is funny, considering how many people are telling you how strong Liara is and you're the one apparently having no success with her. Maybe the problem lies with you?

I wasn't insulting you, I was pointing out an error in your logic.  Liara's detonation does not come out faster than Kaidan's detonation. Detonation occurs when the second power connects. If Shepard is using the same detonation power for both, then it comes out at the same time. Recharge speed of the first power does not affect that. If you think pointing out a factual error is an insult, then there's not much I can do to help you.

If you don't think debuffing strong enemies is a good thing, I can't help you.

I do think it is. However, you were talking about Warp being good for detonations because it still debuffs the enemy afterward (true, just as Reave doesn't fade). But, if you said the enemies are dead, then there is no need for a debuff: The enemies are dead. So, are you claiming that what you said earlier is false? That enemies do survive Liara's detonations?
 

The majority of the game is made up of unprotected enemies. That's why it's so easy. Regardless, shields can be stripped by guns or powers, setting the target up for a biotic combo. Also, you continue to talk as if Liara has only Singularity on her skill list. She has Stasis as well, which is arguably better because it neutralizes even shielded enemies and does let her detonate them.

Yes, they can. But you were talking about explosions, explosions, and more explosions, and Liara priming them. It is valid to point out when she cannot do this, and that she can't do this frequently. As pointed out earlier, the majority of enemies in this came are actually protected, and, more to the point, the protected ones are the ones that are dangerous. 

If an enemy is still alive and in Stasis by the time Liara has recharged, that's a scenario that's extremely unlikely. The tougher enemies that would still be alive (Banshee, Brute, Atlas, or Geth Prime) can't be locked in Stasis. 

It's hardly reasonable to criticize a character for a supposed weakness if you ignore some of their powers.

That's a true statement, but not applicable here. Liara's bad even with Stasis.

I never said anything about solo or not being on a team. I said Liara can set up and detonate her own combos, regardless of who else is on your team. You can run around with Soldier Shep and James, for example, and Liara is still capable of tossing out biotic explosions against non-armored enemies every few seconds.

And I said that's an utterly pointless comparison. If I have Soldier Shep and James, I should be making Fire Explosions enough to burn down a country. Why handicap myself by making Liara do her own things, that would be remarkably slower.

If you choose to play Liara as nothing but a Singularity spammer that's your choice but you're handicapping yourself and then blaming the character for it.  

I don't. I take Liara for what she is, a fragile being who dies easily. Biotic explosions are, quite simply, best done with Javik and Shepard, because of the nature of Dark Channel. Warp is just Reave without the area of effect and a larger bomb.

[brad2240]

DuskWanderer wrote...
 snip

I've said my piece. Enjoy your game.

[capn233]

Most enemies in SP are unprotected. This is because the enemy mix is skewed towards all low tier unprotected enemies.

Warp isn't just single target Reave with higher combo damage. It also has a global debuff and armor weakening. 15% extra damage from all sources is not insignificant.

Stasis should not be used on Liara with any regularity because the cooldown is too long for what you get, namely simple CC. It is however the absolute easiest way to deal with Phantoms and get around their 75% DR.

Liara is the best squadmate for a biotic Shepard. She can spam primers faster than any other squadmate. Look at her passive tree. It is nothing but power recharge speed bonuses which go up to 110%. This is why Warp on Liara can be spammed much more frequently than Reave on Kaidan despite the same base cooldown.

As far as Javik goes, he also doesn't have any passive cooldown bonuses, and his primers are either Pull, Slam or Dark Channel. The first two are really not much different than Singularity except he isn't getting recharge bonuses. His protected target primer is Dark Channel, and while it has ok DOT, it does not have a debuff, and with a base CD of 20s and no passive recharge bonuses. Even the target hopping is suspect because against unprotecteds detonating the first one will ragdoll other unprotecteds away from the target with active DC, and that isn't exactly conducive to target hopping.

[GordianKnot42]

I'm finishing up my 2nd run now with SentShep on Insanity. And I have to say, after playing MP for so long, I've been surprised at how few elite classes I've had to face. Seems I spend most of my time doing Overload -> Liara Singularity -> Throw detonation. Reave would be nice so I wouldn't have to strip shields first, but Singularity stays in one place longer and works against Guardians. Also Reave (Kaidan's, that is) has a longer cooldown. I've only been using Warp to det my own biotics or to debuff armored enemies.

Seems to be a matter of preference to me, although I'm sure there are statistics that will disprove that.

[DuskWanderer]

capn233 wrote...

Most enemies in SP are unprotected. This is because the enemy mix is skewed towards all low tier unprotected enemies.

Call me crazy, but I see a lot of Marauders, particularly late game. Maybe the Husks just die too fast, but Marauders are what I see a lot of. 

Warp isn't just single target Reave with higher combo damage. It also has a global debuff and armor weakening. 15% extra damage from all sources is not insignificant.

It still hits the target that explodes, though. That target is, particularly if you're building Warp the way you say, dead already. If it's not dead, it dies with a few gunshots, or when they're flying through the air and Reave is still eating them. 15% extra damage doesn't sound insignificant, but unless you're using it on a Brute or Banshee, it ends up being that way. 

Stasis should not be used on Liara with any regularity because the cooldown is too long for what you get, namely simple CC. It is however the absolute easiest way to deal with Phantoms and get around their 75% DR.

I'd say Overload coupled with a good headshot is better, but different strokes, I gues.

Liara is the best squadmate for a biotic Shepard. She can spam primers faster than any other squadmate. Look at her passive tree. It is nothing but power recharge speed bonuses which go up to 110%. This is why Warp on Liara can be spammed much more frequently than Reave on Kaidan despite the same base cooldown.

This topic has gone a long way to stating that two explosions are sufficient to kill enemies. Not only does Reave -> Double Throw provide that by itself, but Throw is fast enough to recharge due to that evolution that resets the timer when the combo detonates. Shepard's recharged Throw is faster than Liara's Warp or Kaidan's Reave, no contest. You get two, and then, the enemies are dead. All that gives Liara is no target to use her faster recharges on.

Her other problems (like the low health the topic started with) are beside the point.

As far as Javik goes, he also doesn't have any passive cooldown bonuses, and his primers are either Pull, Slam or Dark Channel. The first two are really not much different than Singularity except he isn't getting recharge bonuses. His protected target primer is Dark Channel, and while it has ok DOT, it does not have a debuff, and with a base CD of 20s and no passive recharge bonuses. Even the target hopping is suspect because against unprotecteds detonating the first one will ragdoll other unprotecteds away from the target with active DC, and that isn't exactly conducive to target hopping.

So you're basing Liara's better-ness on a debuff that does next to nothing since it only affects the target that blew up and is probably already dead, and recharge times that finish by the time the battle is over? Sorry, I'm not seeing it. Liara's perfectly fine for a biotic to use her powers with, but ultimately, I get the same thing with either more variety for the things I can't blow up well (Kaidan) or someone who gives me an infinite amount of targets (Javik and Dark Channel)

[capn233]

There are more Cannibals and Husks than Marauders. Even on Priority Earth. It really doesn't matter because that was in response to the claim about the number of enemies you fight being protected vs unprotected.

I am not sure where you are going with the first response about Warp killing enemies. I am not using Warp against low tier enemies with Liara, I am using Singularity if I have to because it is the fastest CC and primer power for unprotected units. Against any armored unit, Warp is better than Reave because it boosts the combo AND gives your weapon's fire a boost.

Moving on to Phantoms... Stasis is still the easiest. And if you try Overload and headshot, you still have to deal with flipping and DR. If you don't know that a Phantom with 75% DR takes a lot more gun to headshot than one with 0% DR, I don't know what to tell you. The main point was specifically regarding Stasis and the times it might be worth using.

Why do I care about Throw's CD when we are talking about squadmates? No squadmate has Throw so I couldn't care less if you can reset on detonation. That doesn't reset Kaidan's Reave any faster.

Reave against trash mobs with perhaps a double detonation is the only theoretical advantage Reave has over Warp. But who cares? I am not using Warp on trash mobs. That is the job of Singularity. Pick up the trash mob with quick cooldown, and I can either detonate them right there with Throw, let them sit and have Liara detonate them in 4s with Warp, or I can let them hang while I shoot everything else. It isn't a linear proposition. Reave I am locked into engaging that group because it doesn't CC whatsoever. It's cooldown is longer so it also can't be used as much.

I am using Warp on mid-tier and higher. I also don't care that one time in the game you might have two Marauders actually stack near to one another. That just doesn't happen that commonly because there are hardly ever more than 2 Marauders (or any shielded units really) on screen at once, and when they do they aren't on top of one another.

I am basing my opinion on Liara based on the fact that she has the most rapid CD biotic CC and primer in the game, and she has a more rapid debuff and anti-armor power than any other squadmate in the game. Warp's debuff let's you kill all armored targets faster. You know, the units that take more than a split second to kill. Reave and Dark Channel are not nearly as good against armor as Warp unless you plan to just cast and hide.

Modifié par capn233, 19 septembre 2013 - 08:50 .

[DuskWanderer]

I am not sure where you are going with the first response about Warp killing enemies. I am not using Warp against low tier enemies with Liara, I am using Singularity if I have to because it is the fastest CC and primer power for unprotected units. Against any armored unit, Warp is better than Reave because it boosts the combo AND gives your weapon's fire a boost.

And what are you doing after Singularity? I am using Reave followed by throw. Dead husks is all I get. Of what use is Warp's debuff, which was the point.

As for armored units, you've ignored my point. I said that any debuff is next to pointless because I can use a second explosion to kill them faster, as the target is still under the effect of Reave. There are few foes that can survive two rapid explosions. And for those that do? A few gunfire shots takes them right out. Your Warp debuff doesn't stack up against two explosions, which Area Reave, not Warp, provides.

Moving on to Phantoms... Stasis is still the easiest. And if you try Overload and headshot, you still have to deal with flipping and DR. If you don't know that a Phantom with 75% DR takes a lot more gun to headshot than one with 0% DR, I don't know what to tell you. The main point was specifically regarding Stasis and the times it might be worth using.

This argument doesn't make sense. Why would I deal with flipping when Overload stuns Phantoms? Thanks to concentration mods, headshots of stunned phantoms are easy as Kelly Chambers.

Why do I care about Throw's CD when we are talking about squadmates? No squadmate has Throw so I couldn't care less if you can reset on detonation. That doesn't reset Kaidan's Reave any faster.

We are talking about detonations, actually. It is woefully inefficient to discuss detonations (of any kind) without your entire squad: That's the whole point of them.

Reave against trash mobs with perhaps a double detonation is the only theoretical advantage Reave has over Warp. But who cares? I am not using Warp on trash mobs. That is the job of Singularity. Pick up the trash mob with quick cooldown, and I can either detonate them right there with Throw, let them sit and have Liara detonate them in 4s with Warp, or I can let them hang while I shoot everything else. It isn't a linear proposition. Reave I am locked into engaging that group because it doesn't CC whatsoever. It's cooldown is longer so it also can't be used as much.

I can kill them in under 4s with Area Reave + Throw, double detonation. That would make it better than Singularity. Also, your statement about Trave not doing CC is incorrect. Any enemy that can be locked in Singularity (I.E, no armored foes) will be staggered by Reave, and stop what they are doing. By the point that stagger finishes, if I haven't detonated them, I deserve for them to shoot me.

I am using Warp on mid-tier and higher. I also don't care that one time in the game you might have two Marauders actually stack near to one another. That just doesn't happen that commonly because there are hardly ever more than 2 Marauders (or any shielded units really) on screen at once, and when they do they aren't on top of one another.

Priority: Earth has around six in the first mission (to say nothing of Brutes). Any Cerberus mission from Priority: Citadel II onward will have Centurions, Nemesis, and Phantoms (earlier ones have Guardians, which block Warp and Singularity) . Later Reaper missions will have Marauders next to Ravagers. And any geth mission. So...really, once I get Kaidan back, this tactic you provide with Liara doesn't work anymore.

I am basing my opinion on Liara based on the fact that she has the most rapid CD biotic CC and primer in the game, and she has a more rapid debuff and anti-armor power than any other squadmate in the game. Warp's debuff let's you kill all armored targets faster. You know, the units that take more than a split second to kill. Reave and Dark Channel are not nearly as good against armor as Warp unless you plan to just cast and hide.

A good sniper rifle and biotic explosion will make Banshees take about 3 seconds without Warp. Brutes are even faster. Since they all huddle together when attempting to close the distance to the party, why not hit them all at once. Rapid cooldown is nothing if you only need one primer and two triggers (said second trigger becoming instantly available after the first due to power evolution). It wouldn't matter if Liara took 1 second or 1 minute to cooldown if there was nothing left for her to attack, would it?

[capn233]

I don't have patience to talk in circles any longer. If it was a year ago I might be tempted to argue. Really I don't think we are even playing the same game.