109 réponses à ce sujet

[Fishy]

****** session ?

Modifié par Suprez30, 12 septembre 2013 - 12:04 .

[someguy1231]

thats1evildude wrote...

Yeah, I have to side with Angrywolves on this one. Why do people want a medal for doing nothing?

Should I also get more side quests for ignoring other quests? If I don't shop at game stores, should in-game merchants start throwing free gear in my face?

Games reward us for "doing nothing" all the time. Bioshock Infinite had an achievement to complete the game without ever buying anything from a vending machine. Metal Gear Solid 3 gave you one if you skipped a bossfight by sniping him early in the game. In the original Deus Ex, you can skip the entire first mission by cleverly manipulating the game mechanics. Dishonored throws a bunch of deadly weapons and abilities at you, yet you get the best ending by not killing anyone, as well as an achievement for not buying any magic abilities.

If a player chooses to complete the game while remaining celibate or otherwise unromanced, the game should recognize that somehow. That is all we are asking. As for your second paragraph, perhaps merchants could start offering you a discount if you don't buy from them long enough.

[maliluka]

thats1evildude wrote...

Yeah, I have to side with Angrywolves on this one. Why do people want a medal for doing nothing?

Should I also get more side quests for ignoring other quests? If I don't shop at game stores, should merchants start throwing free gear in my face?

"Thanks for not shopping here! Here's some ****ing leather armour, you ass!"

thank you I'm now cleaning off my keyboard. But I have too agree.

[someguy1231]

thats1evildude wrote...

"Inquisitor, we need you to rescue the villagers from those Tevinter slavers!"
"No."
"Very well. Here's some free gold and XP."

*sigh*

That is not a valid comparison.

[Cutlass Jack]

someguy1231 wrote...

Games reward us for "doing nothing" all the time. Bioshock Infinite had an achievement to complete the game without ever buying anything from a vending machine. Metal Gear Solid 3 gave you one if you skipped a bossfight by sniping him early in the game. In the original Deus Ex, you can skip the entire first mission by cleverly manipulating the game mechanics. Dishonored throws a bunch of deadly weapons and abilities at you, yet you get the best ending by not killing anyone, as well as an achievement for not buying any magic abilities.

If a player chooses to complete the game while remaining celibate or otherwise unromanced, the game should recognize that somehow. That is all we are asking. As for your second paragraph, perhaps merchants could start offering you a discount if you don't buy from them long enough.

Getting an achievement is not what the OP is asking for. I'm pretty sure getting an achievement wont make them happy. But really it would take them like two seconds to add that to the game, so I'm all for it.

[ManchesterUnitedFan1]

You get a strength bonus perk, for all the extra excersise your right hand gets.

[KBomb]

thats1evildude wrote...

Yeah, I have to side with Angrywolves on this one. Why do people want a medal for doing nothing?

Should I also get more side quests for ignoring other quests? If I don't shop at game stores, should merchants start throwing free gear in my face?

"Thanks for not shopping here! Here's some ****ing leather armour, you ass!"

Jesus, calm down lol. You act as though romancing someone is on the same par as beating the game on the highest difficulty. "If you don't romance you don't deserve the achievement!!!" 

 I don't care either way really, as you do get a little scene in ME2 if you don't romance someone. He isn't demanding anything, just inquiring.

[Daerog]

The game does recognize you not romancing anyone. It doesn't mention you romance anyone, so it is acknowledged... because nothing happened.

What do people expect? A chastity belt? An achievement? NPCs spreading rumors of possible sexual deviancy?

If the devs do include something, that's fine, but I don't understand what would change the game with not romancing someone. Maybe a quest doesn't play out the same?

[thats1evildude]

someguy1231 wrote...

Games reward us for "doing nothing" all the time. Bioshock Infinite had an achievement to complete the game without ever buying anything from a vending machine.

Oh, now who's being disingenous?

If the Achievement had been for never watching a Kinetoscope, then you would have been rewarded for doing nothing, because it's entirely up to your discretion to use them.

But not using the vending machines makes your game more challenging because you can't upgrade your weapons or vigours and the game will be that much more challenging. It's more work, not less.

maliluka wrote...

thank you I'm now cleaning off my keyboard. But I have too agree.

My apologies. 

Modifié par thats1evildude, 12 septembre 2013 - 12:21 .

[OdanUrr]

Maybe I didn't express myself properly so I'll quote this question in the hopes it'll convey the point better:

Allan Schumacher wrote...

Wouldn't the opportunity cost of exploring a romance be missing some non-romance specific dialogues and whatnot with said character?

[bluemadame]

I didn't romance anyone in DA:II, and I was rewarded by not having to romance them. I think I got the good end of the deal.

[Dean_the_Young]

thats1evildude wrote...

It's optional content. OPTIONAL. Why would they introduce mandatory content (the "phone your mom" suggestion) if you ignored the optional stuff?

"Sir, would you like the white or red wine?"
"Neither, thank you."
"I'll just get you a beer then."
"Wait! I didn't order a beer!"
"Well, sir, if you didn't drink the wine, then you have to drink beer. Those are the rules."

Probably for the same reason that a non-romancing Hawke still has a friend (Aveline) come by to comfort him/her after the mother's death, while the LI's do it instead if there is a romance.

There better question is, why make it mandatory, rather than an option that's mutually exclusive with romance content?

Take ME2 suicide mission. If you have a romance, you get a cabin scene. You choose to consumate or not.

Why not have a separate scene for people with no romance, that  goes something like 'Shepherd wanders the empty normandy, and approaches the galley. He notices the non-romanceable characters are there playing cards and having a moment of comraderie and resolve before the night. Shepherd hangs at the corner, out of sight- do you join them (consumate the friendship), or leave them be?


Optional content can be about equivalent echanges, rather than being additional in nature. Some people would prefer romances be approached from a perspective of equivalent tradeoffs that recognize a lack of romance (Aveline friendship-comforting being exclusive to non-romances) rather than a perspective of +1 content (where there is an absence of comparable content). I know a lot of people love how ME's romance scenes provide a good emotional balance in the tension-filled finale's of each game, but I've never understood why romance was needed for a friendly get-up-and-carry-forward equivalent of the locker scene in ME1.

[someguy1231]

DaerogTheDhampir wrote...

The game does recognize you not romancing anyone. It doesn't mention you romance anyone, so it is acknowledged... because nothing happened.

What do people expect? A chastity belt? An achievement? NPCs spreading rumors of possible sexual deviancy?

If the devs do include something, that's fine, but I don't understand what would change the game with not romancing someone. Maybe a quest doesn't play out the same?

There's plenty of things they could do, aside from an achievement. Perhaps there's one point in the game where your love interest gets kidnapped, but if you don't have one, nobody gets kidnapped and you receive free XP/loot for not giving them someone they can use to get to you. Or perhaps there could be some Chantry organization the player could join only if they're celibate, offering its own unique perks/loot/quests/etc.

[Mr.House]

The only way my ox woman will romance is if the options are really really good. She's here to do her job, not have sex.

[someguy1231]

thats1evildude wrote...
Oh, now who's being disingenous?

If the Achievement had been for never watching a Kinetoscope, then you would have been rewarded for doing nothing, because it's entirely up to your discretion to use them.

But not using the vending machines makes your game more challenging because you can't upgrade your weapons or vigours and the game will be that much more challenging. It's more work, not less.

It's irrelevant to me whether it affects the game from a story or gameplay point of view. Yes, that Bioshock achievement makes the game harder. But one could argue that, if you really immersive yourself into the player character in DAI, then resisting all offers of romance from your companions could provide some challenge from a story point of view. (Hell, judging by all the romance-related posts here, that could be the most challenging achievement of all )

[KBomb]

Mr.House wrote...

The only way my ox woman will romance is if the options are really really good. She's here to do her job, not have sex.

I must say I agree with this. Except the ox-woman part. I shall be playing a puny human female.

[fdgvdddvdfdfbdfb]

I want a scene where the inquisitor just sits in a corner and cry.

[Dean_the_Young]

AlanC9 wrote...

People who skip sidequests don't get additional content as a result.Why should romances work any differently?

Because Bioware romances have often filled narrative roles that significantly impact the tone or depiction of character moments that aren't analogous with filler-content side-quests.

Obviously it depends a good deal on how you weave the romance into the story, but Bioware hasn't been shy about trying to use the LI as an emotional support character for the hero in their time of struggle and difficulty... even if it really shouldn't need a LI to provide this function.

Bioware has been both good and bad about this. The 'good' is in, say, DA2, when Aveline will come to give Hawke some platonic friendly support after the mother's death if you don't have a LI. The bad is in cases like the ME trilogy, where the alternative to the LI providing support and encouragement in key dramatic scenes (the locker scene of ME1, the pre-Suicide Mission of ME2) is that Sheperd gets no support despite an entire cast of True Companions to draw from.

If the player is going to be forced to undergo characterization drama regardless (I don't mind such things as the mourning scene in DA2 or ME3's dreams, but some do), I don't see why we can't use platonic character relationships as an alternative to romantic character relationships.

[wolfhowwl]

Your reward is being able to look at the romance posters on the bsn and know that you're not one of them.

[OdanUrr]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

thats1evildude wrote...

It's optional content. OPTIONAL. Why would they introduce mandatory content (the "phone your mom" suggestion) if you ignored the optional stuff?

"Sir, would you like the white or red wine?"
"Neither, thank you."
"I'll just get you a beer then."
"Wait! I didn't order a beer!"
"Well, sir, if you didn't drink the wine, then you have to drink beer. Those are the rules."

Probably for the same reason that a non-romancing Hawke still has a friend (Aveline) come by to comfort him/her after the mother's death, while the LI's do it instead if there is a romance.

There better question is, why make it mandatory, rather than an option that's mutually exclusive with romance content?

Take ME2 suicide mission. If you have a romance, you get a cabin scene. You choose to consumate or not.

Why not have a separate scene for people with no romance, that  goes something like 'Shepherd wanders the empty normandy, and approaches the galley. He notices the non-romanceable characters are there playing cards and having a moment of comraderie and resolve before the night. Shepherd hangs at the corner, out of sight- do you join them (consumate the friendship), or leave them be?

This is a great example of what I mean.

Optional content can be about equivalent echanges, rather than being additional in nature. Some people would prefer romances be approached from a perspective of equivalent tradeoffs that recognize a lack of romance (Aveline friendship-comforting being exclusive to non-romances) rather than a perspective of +1 content (where there is an absence of comparable content). I know a lot of people love how ME's romance scenes provide a good emotional balance in the tension-filled finale's of each game, but I've never understood why romance was needed for a friendly get-up-and-carry-forward equivalent of the locker scene in ME1.

Yes, exactly this. Not additive but equivalent. Like Allan said in that quote I posted, maybe a no-romance PC has different dialogue options than a romance PC for a given situation, maybe he encounters different situations, the environment might react differently under specific circumstances, so that a no-romance playthrough is not just Basic while romance is Basic+, but also Basic+.

Clearer now?

[Jonathan Seagull]

Hmm. What I assumed Allan meant by that quote, without having read the entire thread, is that variations already exist. Certain conversations with a romanceable companion are different (as opposed to simply additional) based on whether or not you're romancing them. So if you romance, say, Isabela, you don't get to see the non-romanced version of that dialogue. Or to flip it around and apply it here, choosing not to romance anyone leads to seeing (at least a small bit of) different content compared to if you do romance someone. Said content may not be "about" your lack of romance, but it exists.

Modifié par Jonathan Seagull, 12 septembre 2013 - 12:43 .

[AtreiyaN7]

I think that lonely Inquisitors should be rewarded with a scene of their Inquisitor hugging Schmooples the nug.

[thats1evildude]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Probably for the same reason that a non-romancing Hawke still has a friend (Aveline) come by to comfort him/her after the mother's death, while the LI's do it instead if there is a romance.

But that scene is triggered by a mandatory event. Hawke's mother always dies and someone always comes to comfort him, so it might as well be the love interest. The actual romance content, on the other hand, has no mandatory triggers; you either buy in or you don't.

It's one thing to have two versions of the same conversation with a character - a default version and a optional version - that is influenced by your relationship with that person. But when you start demanding Option C on top of the default Option A and discretionary Option B ... well, I can see where that path leads, and it's not pretty.

"What do I get if I don't do the romances?"
"Well, you can take part in a scene where Shepard watches the crew play cards."
"What if I don't want Shepard watching the crew playing cards? What do I get then?"
"Well, Shepard can respond to an e-mail from a friend."
"What if I don't want Shepard to respond to any e-mails? What do I get then?"
"Well, the holodeck malfunctions and Evil President Lincoln attacks the crew with a fire axe."
"What if I never programmed the holodeck with any American civil war re-enactments? What holograms will I fight then?"

It's a serpent eating its own tail, and it's entirely unrealistic.

Modifié par thats1evildude, 12 septembre 2013 - 12:54 .

[Dean_the_Young]

OdanUrr wrote...

Maybe I didn't express myself properly so I'll quote this question in the hopes it'll convey the point better:

Allan Schumacher wrote...

Wouldn't the opportunity cost of exploring a romance be missing some non-romance specific dialogues and whatnot with said character?

That would depend on if there is a meaningful cost, and if the cost is equivalent.

In ME2 for example, romances are pretty much pure padding to the character arcs. It's not instead of anything else with that character- it's just in addition to, providing another few conversations for which non-mancers have no equivalent. Which, considering how the character arcs of Miranda, Jack, and Thane significantly bleed into their romance arcs, created the unfortunate and uncomfortable outcomes of, say, Jack needing the male-Shep's healing c**** in order to finish the game an emotionally healthy person.

If we were to treat the opportunity cost of not doing the friendship route as something equivalent to the romance, then cases like Jack would be able to be resolved in other ways other than player-loving. Jack could trust a friend rather than a lover. Miranda could find a reason to smile that isn't a boner in the engine room. Thane could find reason to want to live for friends and family. Etc.


Now, this is admittedly a very biased sample- ME2 is in many ways a case of how not to do character relationships, and it generally hasn't been sins Dragon Age has been guilty of. Of course, Dragon Age doesn't use the LI's as an emotional crux as much as ME did, and when it did (post-mother) it gave a friendly substitute.

The Dragon Age LI's also don't have their character hinge as much on being romanced like the ME LI's did. Whereas ME2 made the question of whether they were romanced or not the single biggest character factor in several of the romance companions (Jack, Miranda, and Thane in particular), DAO allowed us to access and influence the character arc even if we weren't lovers. Hardening Alistair or Leliana, Rivalry/Friendship development for Merrill, etc.


Overall I think it's a moot concern for me since the DA team has largely addressed my reservations already. As much as I'd enjoy a Bachelor's Night equivalent to the love climax, the lack of it won't be as bad as the gaps I felt in the ME trilogy at times.