109 réponses à ce sujet

[Plaintiff]

It would be pretty absurd if they devoted a cutscene to Shepard making a phone call to a character we've previously never met, who only exists for Shepard to say... what, exactly?

And as others have said, you shouldn't get extras for choosing not to engage with entirely optional content.

[Plaintiff]

OdanUrr wrote...

Maybe I didn't express myself properly so I'll quote this question in the hopes it'll convey the point better:

Allan Schumacher wrote...

Wouldn't the opportunity cost of exploring a romance be missing some non-romance specific dialogues and whatnot with said character?

What's your point? Engaging in romance requires the player to select 'flirt' dialogue, preventing them from accessing other options.

So you already have your non-romance content. Congratulations.

[Plaintiff]

thats1evildude wrote...
"Well, the holodeck malfunctions and Evil President Lincoln attacks the crew with a fire axe."
"What if I never programmed the holodeck with any American civil war re-enactments? What holograms will I fight then?"

YOU GET EVIL LINCOLN ANYWAY BECAUSE **** YOU, FUTURAMA IS AWESOME.

Modifié par Plaintiff, 12 septembre 2013 - 12:56 .

[Auintus]

While I agree with the "non-romance content is the rest of the game bit," if ME's "designated romance scene" shows up, which it didn't in the past two, just FYI, I'd like options for a single character. Sharpen a weapon, burn down a forest, stare dolefully at a rock, something that lets you characterize your character.

[Ryzaki]

Honestly I hated that comfort scenes in some BW games were restricted to LIs. That was complete bullocks. Yeah optional content. But why is my PC who does have friends moping alone. My PC's not worthy of comfort unless he/she is bumping uglies with someone? Really?

Thankfully DA2 avoided this issue but still...

[Dean_the_Young]

Sorry for delay. Connection cut out.

thats1evildude wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Probably for the same reason that a non-romancing Hawke still has a friend (Aveline) come by to comfort him/her after the mother's death, while the LI's do it instead if there is a romance.

But that scene is triggered by a mandatory event. Hawke's mother always dies and someone always comes to comfort him, so it might as well be the love interest. The actual romance content, on the other hand, has no mandatory triggers; you either buy in or you don't.

Plenty of Bioware romance content is tied to and triggered by mandatory events. ME1, ME2, ME3, Jade Empire, all had their most important romance content, the climax, tied to the end-game trigger point of the night before the battle. In the ME trilogy, the romance content was frequently used to serve as a narrative purpose that had no non-romance (Avaline) equivalent.

It's actually quite common in RPGs with romances that the romance content is tied to a mandatory, scripted event of some sort.

It's one thing to have two versions of the same conversation with a character - a default version and a optional version - that is influenced by your relationship with that person. But when you start demanding Option C on top of the default Option A and discretionary Option B ... well, I can see where that path leads, and it's not pretty.

"What do I get if I don't do the romances?"
"Well, you can take part in a scene where Shepard watches the crew play cards."
"What if I don't want Shepard watching the crew playing cards? What do I get then?"
"Well, Shepard can respond to an e-mail from a friend."
"What if I don't want Shepard to respond to any e-mails? What do I get then?"
"Well, the holodeck malfunctions and Evil President Lincoln attacks the crew with a fire axe."
"What if I never programmed the holodeck with any American civil war re-enactments? What holograms will I fight then?"

It's a serpent eating its own tail, and it's entirely unrealistic.

Sure. It's also a reducto ad absurdem strawman of your own creation.

You could make the same inch-and-mile argument about people who want a morepersonalized scenario out of anything. Your argument against giving people a non-romance scenario to say yes/no to can be used against any form of optional content... including, ironically, romances. There is no logical end point to your counter.

Instead of arguing that optional non-romance content can't be made mutually exclusive with optional romance content, why don't I post an example of how it's been done in other games? Specifically, the Christmas Eve event in Persona 4.

In Persona 4, assuming you beat the game before Christmas you have the opportunity to have a christmas date with any girl you've initiated a romance with. You can say yes/no, you get unique dialogue, a unique item for the character, and it serves as a touching emotional cap-stone to the end game. It might not be bioware quality, but it's still personalized to the character and exclusive to the romance.



On the other hand, if you don't take a girl up on the date, or you have no romance at all... you get a call from your bros on the team, for basically a singles night in party. Still a yes/no, you still get unique dialogue, you still get an equivalent unique item, and you still get a touching emotional cap-stone for the end game.

This is optional content that's exclusive with romance content, and the sort of equivalence to a romance content that some people have been talking about.

[JerZey CJ]

I'm pretty sure this has come up before and the dev response was that it is optional content and that you are essentially asking for more content for not doing optional content.

[trying_touch]

I'm sure there'll be a best friendship scene... hopefully it's with your favorite bro/sis, and not necessarily with Varric...

[Eragon-]

thats1evildude wrote...

Yeah, I have to side with Angrywolves on this one. Why do people want a medal for doing nothing?

Should I also get more side quests for ignoring other quests? If I don't shop at game stores, should merchants start throwing free gear in my face?

"Thanks for not shopping here! Here's some ****ing leather armour, you ass!"

Read that in Javaris's voice.....Can't stop laughing :lol:....

[Dean_the_Young]

JerZeyCJ2 wrote...

I'm pretty sure this has come up before and the dev response was that it is optional content and that you are essentially asking for more content for not doing optional content.

Which sounds absurd, until you realize that that's the stated desire of many an RPG player.

Choice A results in sequential content. Since Choice A is optional, sequential content is by definition optional content.

But, being that this is an RPG, why wouldn't I want or expect Choice not-A (aka Choice B, or Choice C, or anything but Choice A) to also provide optional, sequential content specific to that choice? 

One of the major draws about RPGs is that they do, in fact provide optional content that reflects not choosing other optional content. It's kind of the crux of the entire 'choose your dialogue option' dialogue system, and a major part of Big Decisions.

Modifié par Dean_the_Young, 12 septembre 2013 - 01:40 .

[Knight of Dane]

Taleroth wrote...

Bromances are required. Instead of a sex scene, it's just two character hanging out exchanging fistbumps.

I wouldn't have minded a scene with my Sheploo loner sitting in the bar with Garrus or James etc. before the final battle...

That bar was hardly ever used anyway.

[Dean_the_Young]

EntropicAngel wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

In ME2 for example, romances are pretty much pure padding to the character arcs. It's not instead of anything else with that character- it's just in addition to, providing another few conversations for which non-mancers have no equivalent. Which, considering how the character arcs of Miranda, Jack, and Thane significantly bleed into their romance arcs, created the unfortunate and uncomfortable outcomes of, say, Jack needing the male-Shep's healing c**** in order to finish the game an emotionally healthy person.

While I agree wholeheartedly with what you're suggesting here Dean, I'll point out that this isn't necessarily true--you can play a male Shepard who's merely very nice to Jack (Paragon, of course) and she "heals" a lot too.

As I recall, a M!Shep who doesn't romance Jack gets as far as the Fem!Shep before getting a 'romance me? Y/N' prompt that ends the character arc at the fem!Shep point.

Regardless, point remains.

[Eragon-]

Er...Why are we bringing-in discrepancies from ME games in a thread relevant to DA ? Did I miss something ?

As far as I know, DA seems better at handling stuff related to romance (or, in this case, not-romance, ty Sandal) than ME.

Modifié par Eragon-, 12 septembre 2013 - 01:59 .

[Eveangaline]

Do I get special content if I don't decide to use mages in a run through? Or if I refuse to open any chests?

[Xilizhra]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

JerZeyCJ2 wrote...

I'm pretty sure this has come up before and the dev response was that it is optional content and that you are essentially asking for more content for not doing optional content.

Which sounds absurd, until you realize that that's the stated desire of many an RPG player.

Choice A results in sequential content. Since Choice A is optional, sequential content is by definition optional content.

But, being that this is an RPG, why wouldn't I want or expect Choice not-A (aka Choice B, or Choice C, or anything but Choice A) to also provide optional, sequential content specific to that choice? 

One of the major draws about RPGs is that they do, in fact provide optional content that reflects not choosing other optional content. It's kind of the crux of the entire 'choose your dialogue option' dialogue system, and a major part of Big Decisions.

The thing, though, is that it's not the same kind of choice; what you're referring to is a decision point as to how to continue a story, and wanting equal amounts of content for both choices. That's reasonable. However, if we talk about something not romance--say, an optional sidequest--how many people would want extra content for those who choose not to do the sidequest? And why? It makes no sense, and doesn't make much more with romance.

[Xilizhra]

EntropicAngel wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

The thing, though, is that it's not the same kind of choice; what you're referring to is a decision point as to how to continue a story, and wanting equal amounts of content for both choices. That's reasonable. However, if we talk about something not romance--say, an optional sidequest--how many people would want extra content for those who choose not to do the sidequest? And why? It makes no sense, and doesn't make much more with romance.

I would argue that for any circumstance where characterization is possible--defined as shallowly as possible (say, all dialog) to prevent this from getting out of hand--the game should not, I repeat SHOULD NOT, give more content merely because you've chosen to romance someone.

Romancing someone should say DIFFERENT things about my character, not more.

But when you have two characters who do the exact same things except one person is conducting a romantic relationship and the other is not, the first one is doing more. It seems logical to me for more to happen.

[mickey111]

Maybe bioware games just aren't for you then?

[Xilizhra]

EntropicAngel wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

But when you have two characters who do the exact same things except one person is conducting a romantic relationship and the other is not, the first one is doing more. It seems logical to me for more to happen.

The problem is that you're perceiving them as doing more, when it's not necessarily true. How do you know that while one man is out getting laid, the other isn't crafting a hidden piece of art that those who knew him would have never seen from him?

You saying that the non-romancer is doing nothing by not romancing is completely arbitrary.

Because the notion of crafting the game so that only celibate PCs can craft hidden pieces of art is utterly absurd.

[Xilizhra]

EntropicAngel wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

Because the notion of crafting the game so that only celibate PCs can craft hidden pieces of art is utterly absurd.

It's an example of a non-romance bit of character definition. It isn't saying it's exclusive to people who don't romance others. I'm saying it's something that your non-romancer COULD be doing in the time that your romancer IS romancing.

In Mass Effect, this sort of makes sense because sex scenes tend to occur in one timeslot, right before the final battle. So something else could be shown happening there. In Dragon Age, however, you (perhaps more sensibly) only have sex during downtime in camp/at home. As such, for your idea to match it, you'd pretty much have to have a Sexless Doodad marked somewhere in camp that would trigger after a certain amount of time of having not romanced anyone, which you would click to perform your sexless activities... and then what if it's like DAO and you could start a romance at any time, with it being based solely on affection levels? What happens if you use the Sexless Doodad and then trigger a sex scene? You'd have unscrupulous players getting double the content!