98 réponses à ce sujet

[KaiserShep]

HYR 2.0 wrote...

1.) Since my creation, I am most likely the greatest cause for violent death for organics in the galaxy.

I just want to point out the double standard at work in this point. Whenever these arguments come up, you compare the body counts of the geth and the reapers, but make sure to add the restriction of it being only within the current cycle. Aside from the fact that this is flat out incorrect, as the geth were created as automated labor, "since my creation" is a contradiction of the restriction you place on this comparison, so we're going to have to compare both on those terms. Since their creation, the reapers have been the greatest cause for violent death for organics for millions of years. They are purpose-built for the job. Their entire existence revolves around killing things, this point being pressed harder by having them be literally made of corpses.

[jstme]

KaiserShep wrote...

HYR 2.0 wrote...

1.) Since my creation, I am most likely the greatest cause for violent death for organics in the galaxy.

I just want to point out the double standard at work in this point. Whenever these arguments come up, you compare the body counts of the geth and the reapers, but make sure to add the restriction of it being only within the current cycle. Aside from the fact that this is flat out incorrect, as the geth were created as automated labor, "since my creation" is a contradiction of the restriction you place on this comparison, so we're going to have to compare both on those terms. Since their creation, the reapers have been the greatest cause for violent death for organics for millions of years. They are purpose-built for the job. Their entire existence revolves around killing things, this point being pressed harder by having them be literally made of corpses.

There are even beigger double standarts. Rachni wars? Krogan rebelions? Those things shook the entire ME world. Till this day those events are mentioned to you by all. There were planets lost,colonies wiped. I mean -  just look at Tuchanka.
There is no way to prove that Geth-Quarian war is comparable in loss of life to those two conflicts. So even in this cycle that statement is false. Pure demagogue.

[Br3admax]

Billions of the people didn't die in the krogan rebellions. Billions of krogan died. Maybe. From each other.

[jstme]

One can argue that Krogan are no less "people" in ME universe then the Quarians or Humans. Regardless,3 Turian planets were totally lost when Krogans smashed those with asteroids. Add to it all the carnage from fighting and the collosal Krogan losses and Geth-Quarian casualties would appear at least comparable if not lesser. Rachni wars went for centuries and council lost lots of worlds so this is the biggest loss of life in ME universe without any doubt.
You think that "no people" Krogan arguement supports rediculous OP? Victims of Rachni are not people too then,i assume.

[Br3admax]

Billions of people didn't die, as there aren't that many people even now to repopulate to the extant seen in game. And I meant except krogan. I didn't mean to imply that krogan weren't people.

Modifié par Br3ad, 12 septembre 2013 - 11:45 .

[NeonFlux117]

Not gonna lie if you gave the Geth reaper upgrades and chose synthesis.

Then yeah, they be boss.

But the geth are not violent peeps.

And plus, synthesis makes everyone the same. One DNA. One mind. One mind made up of trillions of beings. One path. One.


Damn, that sounds like... .


Oh, no no. It's a good thing.


The Reaper overlord Casper the Genocidal; Ghost tells me so.


I always believe reapers.


Always.

[ruggly]

I found waldo.

[teh DRUMPf!!]

jstme wrote...

Your analogy to Geth is even more flawed then my deliberately ridiculuos one.
Geth were created as servants and workers. Reapers were created as a tool for reaping.
Geth control themself. Reapers are controlled by their creator.

These points do not contradict my own.

Geth do not have death of all of Quarians as a goal.

At one point, they pretty much did. Nobody cares, though, since they've "reformed" (at least, no geth supporters do).

jstme wrote...

There are even beigger double standarts. Rachni wars? Krogan rebelions? Those things shook the entire ME world.

(& *snip*)

Double-standard? Don't make me laugh. One need not look further than how geth sympathizers will make all the excuses in the world for doing their best Reaper impersonations, but go on to ridicule "going Reaper apologist."

I never dismissed the Rachni Wars or Krogan Rebellions as insignificant. In fact, that just strengthens my position. It's a potentially-dangerous risk to cure the genophage or let the rachni go free, but it's one many will take. Why? Because the presentation of those issues allowed many people to see them in a favorable light.

If the final decison of ME3 was not presented in a way you could see a non-Destroy option favorably... that's fair. You're entitled to your own opinion. However, you are not entitled to your own facts, and that's what brought this whole thing on -- Control/Sync non-supporters ignoring facts in favor of reinforcing their (pro-Destroy) opinion.

Pure demagogue.

Speak for yaself.

Modifié par HYR 2.0, 13 septembre 2013 - 05:35 .

[teh DRUMPf!!]

KaiserShep wrote...

I just want to point out the double standard at work in this point. Whenever these arguments come up, you compare the body counts of the geth and the reapers, but make sure to add the restriction of it being only within the current cycle.

All two times? (Three, if you include a deleted thread). It's only recently I made that connection.

Aside from the fact that this is flat out incorrect, as the geth were created as automated labor, "since my creation" is a contradiction of the restriction you place on this comparison, so we're going to have to compare both on those terms. Since their creation, the reapers have been the greatest cause for violent death for organics for millions of years.

Yeah, but this is a 20 Questions-style game: there is going to be more than one possible right answer at first, but each hint is going to narrow it down. From #1-9, you could reasonably answer both the geth or the Reapers.

#10, however, eliminates the Reapers.

They are purpose-built for the job. Their entire existence revolves around killing things, this point being pressed harder by having them be literally made of corpses.

Not sure what point you're trying to make here. Yes, we all know they have a job to do, and that job is harvesting organics. Logically, one would build them to do that job effectively. It's not like I don't know that, if you're trying to remind me. If you're trying to suggest it's all they're ever going to be capable of, I disagree. Giant, sentient ships with immense accumulated knowledge... there are many, many ways one could put that to good use. It just takes a little vision.


XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX



By the way, I agree with Seival... to an extent. Obviously that's not going to be true for everybody, but it is true of many. Saying otherwise is like MEHEM'ers saying they don't enjoy the mod because it gives them a happy ending. This is not really even a Destroy-supporter thing, it's actually more like a BioWare fanbase thing. I'm getting into the DA hype a bit -- in anticipation for that upcoming game -- and I've been going back and reading some old BSN topics on a few of the major player decisions. To put it bluntly, a big part of this fanbase is made up of bleeding-hearts who wear their emotions on their sleeves. That kind of mentality doesn't really produce a balanced opinion on things, least of all matters such as that of ME3's final decision. BioWare should have known its audience better, yes, but some of us are not like the rest of the fandumbom.

Modifié par HYR 2.0, 13 septembre 2013 - 05:49 .

[JShepppp]

HYR 2.0 wrote...

 


*Mass Effect 3 Launch Trailer

Major Coates: "10 million dead in the first day. Another 7 million dead by the end of the (first?) week."

17 million casualties per week, on Earth. So, let's use that data and say that the Reapers average 2.4 million casualties on a major homeworld per day. Let's also say that they occupy three major homeworlds (Earth, Palaven, Khar'Shan) and some 10 colonies per with half the casualty rate (totally overshooting it on both counts, but that's kind of the point) at the onset of ME3. So, we're up to [43.2 million casualties per day] ...





Hackett tells us that we lost Earth some 3 weeks back by the end of the Citadel coup, about one third of the way through Mass Effect 3's main plot. So, the Reapers have been at it for 21 days, which equates to 907.2 million casualties at the rate we have pre-determined. So, not quite at the billion mark just yet. Say the Rannoch arc concludes after another three weeks and that number is doubled, we're at 1.8 billion. Let's add another three weeks to account for the Ceberus arc (Thessia, Sanctuary, Cerberus HQ).

And given the invasion of Thessia, we will now add another homeworld and 10 colonies, so the rate has jumped to 57.4 million casualties per day. Another 3 weeks equates to another 1.2 billion casualties to put us at a grand total of 3 billion casualties by the time Shepard has wrapped things up and is only left with taking back Earth (all other missions closed).

Let's add another 1 billion in there for good measure, just because there are other species with colonies and homeworlds to account for (though none as populous as humanity's, the turians', or the asari's, nor as high a priority for the Reapers, nor targetted as early on in the war). So ultimately, we have a subtotal of 4 billion casualties.

If Rannoch was even half as populated as Mass Effect's Earth (~11.2 billion people) before the geth uprising, the Reapers still will not have achieved as much slaughter as the geth did through the Morning War alone (99% * 5.6 = 5.581 bil).




And to think people are precious about this species' sacrifice in Destroy, yet the Reapers must die...

Wow, this is a brilliant ad-hoc analysis here. I mean the numbers, as you admitted, are rough, but even with some liberal estimates there is a stark conclusion that can be drawn. I never thought about this before. I like this. 

[Sir DeLoria]

I have to say it again, I'm sorry HYR, but your numbers are flat out wrong.

[Assuming Direct Control]

Javik says that trillions were killed in his cycle so, let's just call that 1 trillion killed in a span of, say, 300 years (Prothean harvest took centuries). This equates to roughly 9 billion per day. Of course, this cycle is not as large as the Prothean cycle (apparently) and so let's reduce this rate to 900 million per day.

Over the course of ME3 you suggested that around 12 weeks had passed, this means that around 75 billion were killed by the Reapers in this cycle. My numbers are crude, yes, but they are as about as accurate as yours, OP, as far as we can know.

Thus, the Geth did not kill as many as the Reapers in this cycle alone. Also, let's not forget the Geth Consensus which implied to us that the Quarians were the ones who initiated the Quarian-Geth wars; the Geth, in my opinion, are not to blame for the conflicts, and the Admirals of Mass Effect 2 and 3 showed us the aggressive manner of the Quarian command.

[Sir DeLoria]

Assuming Direct Control wrote...

Javik says that trillions were killed in his cycle so, let's just call that 1 trillion killed in a span of, say, 300 years (Prothean harvest took centuries). This equates to roughly 9 billion per day. Of course, this cycle is not as large as the Prothean cycle (apparently) and so let's reduce this rate to 900 million per day.

Over the course of ME3 you suggested that around 12 weeks had passed, this means that around 75 billion were killed by the Reapers in this cycle. My numbers are crude, yes, but they are as about as accurate as yours, OP, as far as we can know.

Thus, the Geth did not kill as many as the Reapers in this cycle alone. Also, let's not forget the Geth Consensus which implied to us that the Quarians were the ones who initiated the Quarian-Geth wars; the Geth, in my opinion, are not to blame for the conflicts, and the Admirals of Mass Effect 2 and 3 showed us the aggressive manner of the Quarian command.

It doesn't matter who started the war, there's no excuse for massacring civilians. If Germany hadn't attacked first in the second world war, they'd still be responsible for the attrocities they committed. 

[Br3admax]

900,000,000 per day? Is this a serious estimate? Because it's way over what is actually stated in game. Also, it has not been 12 weeks. These are all just numbers that you are pulling out of nowhere.

[JasonShepard]

@HYR: I can do you better on the estimate for number of deaths per day. The codex gives it as 1.86 million per day while Earth is occupied. (So, slightly lower than 17 million per week. Presumably the first week had higher casualties due to the whole invasion thing.)

However, the line from Hackett is (if I've got the same one as you) "Only lost Earth a few weeks back", immediately after the geth dreadnought mission. So, 'a few' is not necessarily three. I'd be happy for it to mean anything up until 10.
So, yeah, your numbers are a little bit rough. 

(Note, I'm not disputing that the Morning War almost certainly had more casualties than the Reapers so far in the galaxy. However, across, multiple cycles, the Reapers definitely  have the upper hand on the body count.)

Modifié par JasonShepard, 13 septembre 2013 - 11:53 .

[The Night Mammoth]

Br3ad wrote...

900,000,000 per day? Is this a serious estimate? Because it's way over what is actually stated in game. Also, it has not been 12 weeks. These are all just numbers that you are pulling out of nowhere.

If what Javik says about the number of people in his cycle (a trillion) is true, then yes, he's quite correct, at least in his math, but I think his point was more to do with the fact that both him and HYR are essentially pulling random numbers based on a few character's very vague statements.

That's without mentioning, of course, that HYR is completely ignoring the fact that the Reapers have completely eradicated who knows how many cycles.

Modifié par The Night Mammoth, 14 septembre 2013 - 12:07 .

[Br3admax]

The Night Mammoth wrote...

Br3ad wrote...

900,000,000 per day? Is this a serious estimate? Because it's way over what is actually stated in game. Also, it has not been 12 weeks. These are all just numbers that you are pulling out of nowhere.

If what Javik says about the number of people in his cycle (a trillion) is true, then yes, he's quite correct.

No hes's not, considering the amount people he said killed per day is a lot more than the galaxy currently has. The turians lose only five million a day. Do your really think everyone else is losing the other 895,000,000 each day? Really? Honestly? 

Modifié par Br3ad, 14 septembre 2013 - 12:08 .

[The Night Mammoth]

Br3ad wrote...

The Night Mammoth wrote...

Br3ad wrote...

900,000,000 per day? Is this a serious estimate? Because it's way over what is actually stated in game. Also, it has not been 12 weeks. These are all just numbers that you are pulling out of nowhere.

If what Javik says about the number of people in his cycle (a trillion) is true, then yes, he's quite correct.

No hes's not, considering the amount people he said killed per day is a lot more than the galaxy currently has. The turians lose only five million a day. Do your really think everyone else is losing the other 895,000,000 each day? Really? Honestly? 

No, but his math is at least no more wrong than HYR's. 

Modifié par The Night Mammoth, 14 septembre 2013 - 12:11 .

[Sir DeLoria]

I just don't get it, why is everyone completely ignoring the casualties of the Batarians, Volus, Hanar, Drell and Elcor? These races were hit far harder than the council races, ME3 just barely pays attention to it.

It's extremely, extremely unlikely, that the Morning War had higher casualties than the current cycle. I sincerely doubt, that the Quarian population was anywhere close to what some here claim.

[Br3admax]

He arbitrarily took the number 300 and just threw it in there. He then just jumped and assumed the Reapers didn't just kill billions of Protheans at once, as they could not be turned into Reapers and thus had no reason to be harvested, just exterminated. The numbers don't add up, despite the math being able to.

[Assuming Direct Control]

Br3ad wrote...

900,000,000 per day? Is this a serious estimate? Because it's way over what is actually stated in game. Also, it has not been 12 weeks. These are all just numbers that you are pulling out of nowhere.

The game never tells us how many on average are killed every day in the galaxy, it just gives us the number of people on Earth killed each day; which is 1.86 million IIRC. Given this number, it is not unreasonable to suggest that the entire galaxy loses 900 million lives each day during this Reaper cycle.

[Br3admax]

Necanor wrote...

I just don't get it, why is everyone completely ignoring the casualties of the Batarians, Volus, Hanar, Drell and Elcor? These races were hit far harder than the council races, ME3 just barely pays attention to it.

It's extremely, extremely unlikely, that the Morning War had higher casualties than the current cycle. I sincerely doubt, that the Quarian population was anywhere close to what some here claim.

That still doesn't add anywhere near 900,000,000 per day. I'm not even going to entertain that it could. 

[Br3admax]

Assuming Direct Control wrote...

Br3ad wrote...

900,000,000 per day? Is this a serious estimate? Because it's way over what is actually stated in game. Also, it has not been 12 weeks. These are all just numbers that you are pulling out of nowhere.

The game never tells us how many on average are killed every day in the galaxy, it just gives us the number of people on Earth killed each day; which is 1.86 million IIRC. Given this number, it is not unreasonable to suggest that the entire galaxy loses 900 million lives each day during this Reaper cycle.

There are not that many people in the galaxy. This is not up for debate. The batarians numbered near humans, who only had almost 12 billion total. The Asari had much less than that. The turians would likely number near the humans. There are only millions of quarians. Adding all this up, you've really estimate that the Reapers have killed two thirds of the galaxy already, which is not the case.