98 réponses à ce sujet

[Sir DeLoria]

The reason why so many Protheans got killed so quickly, is because the Protheans had no quarrels in blowing up their own planets.

Javik said that himself.

[Assuming Direct Control]

Br3ad wrote...

He arbitrarily took the number 300 and just threw it in there. He then just jumped and assumed the Reapers didn't just kill billions of Protheans at once, as they could not be turned into Reapers and thus had no reason to be harvested, just exterminated. The numbers don't add up, despite the math being able to.

Yes the number 300 for the years it took for the Reapers to complete the Prothean harvest cycle is arbitrary - but the game repeats quite often that the Prothean harvest cycle was centuries long (so 300 years seems somewhat reasonable in this case).

As for the 12 weeks, that's just based on the numbers the OP was using - it's likely wrong, but it doesn't seem too unreasonable.

[JasonShepard]

Necanor wrote...

I just don't get it, why is everyone completely ignoring the casualties of the Batarians, Volus, Hanar, Drell and Elcor? These races were hit far harder than the council races, ME3 just barely pays attention to it.

It's extremely, extremely unlikely, that the Morning War had higher casualties than the current cycle. I sincerely doubt, that the Quarian population was anywhere close to what some here claim.

Because the aim of the Reapers isn't to kill. It's to conquer and harvest. Now, the net-result is the same (as far as we're concerned) but harvesting takes much  longer. Judging by Reaper methods, the vast majority of the Batarians are probably still alive within containment camps, awaiting their turn to be converted into Reaper goo.

The body count for this cycle won't be as high as an entire species yet,  because if the Reapers wipe out an entire species on that timescale, they've failed to harvest it. But if this cycle continues, the body count will be much higher, and that's ignoring all previous cycles.

And all the previous harvests blow something small like the Morning War completely out of the water.

EDIT: (Looking at the whole thread)
You know, I hate to say it, but we might be in danger of over-analysing here, especially when the statistics being quoted are basically the equivalent of flavour text...

Modifié par JasonShepard, 14 septembre 2013 - 12:23 .

[Sir DeLoria]

Br3ad wrote...

Necanor wrote...

I just don't get it, why is everyone completely ignoring the casualties of the Batarians, Volus, Hanar, Drell and Elcor? These races were hit far harder than the council races, ME3 just barely pays attention to it.

It's extremely, extremely unlikely, that the Morning War had higher casualties than the current cycle. I sincerely doubt, that the Quarian population was anywhere close to what some here claim.

That still doesn't add anywhere near 900,000,000 per day. I'm not even going to entertain that it could. 

No, it doesn't. The total number of casualties is still probably in the one or two dozen billions. 

[Br3admax]

Necanor wrote...

Br3ad wrote...

Necanor wrote...

I just don't get it, why is everyone completely ignoring the casualties of the Batarians, Volus, Hanar, Drell and Elcor? These races were hit far harder than the council races, ME3 just barely pays attention to it.

It's extremely, extremely unlikely, that the Morning War had higher casualties than the current cycle. I sincerely doubt, that the Quarian population was anywhere close to what some here claim.

That still doesn't add anywhere near 900,000,000 per day. I'm not even going to entertain that it could. 

No, it doesn't. The total number of casualties is still probably in the one or two dozen billions. 

Probably one dozen. At the most. Two dozen is pushing it. None of the races are even close to extinction, from what we've seen. Well not any closer than they were before. 

[Sailears]

wolfhowwl wrote...

Ledgend1221 wrote...

Oh look...
Quarians deserved it.

They were architects of their own destruction but that doesn't mean they deserved it.

The Quarians did choose to launch a war of extermination and when they proved the weaker the Geth chose to finish the war on the same terms the Quarians started it. But the key word there being chose. Breaking the Quarian military was a matter of survival for the Geth, the decision to engage in wholesale butchery was not. The Quarians were defeated and only by the most barbaric standards would continuing the fight be considered acceptable behavior.

However if the Quarians were correct in attempting to exterminate the Geth in the Morning War, then the Geth were also correct in trying to utterly destroy the Quarians as well. What is good for the goose is good for the gander. In that case the Quarians did get what they deserved, they were weak and the Geth were stronger. The stronger side won out and the Quarians paid the price for starting a war they couldn't win.

Well said.

It is a generalisation to say all of the population deserved it... however they built and used the machines, were served by the machines, probably deeply integrated into their society/work routines and so on, and freaked out when one didn't behave as intended.

I doubt that every single quarian would have been in favour of exterminating the geth, however the decisions of the few lead them down a horrible path... They did try to exterminate the machines, which caused them to respond in kind. Just sad for the ones who perhaps had an alternative view - maybe desiring peace even at that stage. The ones in favour of fighting the geth then certainly deserved it, I have no sympathy.

[Assuming Direct Control]

Br3ad wrote...

There are not that many people in the galaxy. This is not up for debate. The batarians numbered near humans, who only had almost 12 billion total. The Asari had much less than that. The turians would likely number near the humans. There are only millions of quarians. Adding all this up, you've really estimate that the Reapers have killed two thirds of the galaxy already, which is not the case. 

If there were trillions of lives in the Prothean cycle then it would make sense that a few hundred billion lives existed in the current cycle. Also, how do you know that 2/3 of the lives in the galaxy have not been wiped out by the end of ME3? It may very well be the case.

A few of the species in the game may even be on the verge of extinction because of the Reaper war - the Batarians were pretty much wiped out and they numbered in the tens of billions.

Modifié par Assuming Direct Control, 14 septembre 2013 - 12:24 .

[AlexMBrennan]

it just gives us the number of people on Earth killed each day; which is 1.86 million IIRC. Given this number, it is not unreasonable to suggest that the entire galaxy loses 900 million lives each day during this Reaper cycle.

If you assume that there are 450 homeworlds the size of Earth, sure..
Look at how long the prothean war with the Reapers lasted - if they could wipe out one planet per week, the prothean extinction would not have taken centuries

[Br3admax]

Assuming Direct Control wrote...

Br3ad wrote...

There are not that many people in the galaxy. This is not up for debate. The batarians numbered near humans, who only had almost 12 billion total. The Asari had much less than that. The turians would likely number near the humans. There are only millions of quarians. Adding all this up, you've really estimate that the Reapers have killed two thirds of the galaxy already, which is not the case. 

If there were trillions of lives in the Prothean cycle then it would make sense that a few hundred billion lives existed in the current cycle. Also, how do you know that 2/3 of the lives in the galaxy have not been wiped out by the end of ME3? It may very well be the case.

A few of the species in the game may even be on the verge of extinction because of the Reaper war - the Batarians were pretty much wiped out and they numbered in the tens of billions.

Maybe because if species were going towards extinction, someone would say something about it. The Reapers are harvesting, not exterminating. They aren't nuking planets every hour. 

[Sir DeLoria]

JasonShepard wrote...

Because the aim of the Reapers isn't to kill. It's to conquer and harvest. Now, the net-result is the same (as far as we're concerned) but harvesting takes much  longer. Judging by Reaper methods, the vast majority of the Batarians are probably still alive within containment camps, awaiting their turn to be converted into Reaper goo.

The body count for this cycle won't be as high as an entire species yet,  because if the Reapers wipe out an entire species on that timescale, they've failed to harvest it. But if this cycle continues, the body count will be much higher, and that's ignoring all previous cycles.

And all the previous harvests blow something small like the Morning War completely out of the water.

Yes, but in the process of both Harvesting and the war a few billion will have perished. It's stated in the codex, that Irune lost a large part of its population and was completely overwhelmed by th Reapers. Khar'Shan alone had a population of 15 billion. 

The Reapers may harvest a large amount of organics, but they have no quarrels in butchering a few billion. Many of the colonies weren't even attacked by ground forces, but simply obliterated from orbit.

[Assuming Direct Control]

Br3ad wrote...

Maybe because if species were going towards extinction, someone would say something about it. The Reapers are harvesting, not exterminating. They aren't nuking planets every hour. 

Indeed, but, what happens to those that are harvested? They are killed just as any other, are they not? So, be aware that I'm including the harvested in my numbers of killed too.

[Astartes Marine]

Br3ad wrote...

Necanor wrote...

Br3ad wrote...

Necanor wrote...

I just don't get it, why is everyone completely ignoring the casualties of the Batarians, Volus, Hanar, Drell and Elcor? These races were hit far harder than the council races, ME3 just barely pays attention to it.

It's extremely, extremely unlikely, that the Morning War had higher casualties than the current cycle. I sincerely doubt, that the Quarian population was anywhere close to what some here claim.

That still doesn't add anywhere near 900,000,000 per day. I'm not even going to entertain that it could. 

No, it doesn't. The total number of casualties is still probably in the one or two dozen billions. 

Probably one dozen. At the most. Two dozen is pushing it. None of the races are even close to extinction, from what we've seen. Well not any closer than they were before. 

Batarians maybe, we fight ALOT of Cannibals.  Then again we fight a crap ton of Husks too so who knows?

Personally I laugh at the idea of the morning war having more dead than the Reaper invasion.  The MW affected only one species, the Reaper invasion is hitting every single species out there and while the Geth didn't pursue the Quarians the Reapers are hunting everyone down.  There's no way to get concrete solid numbers on losses, but I'm betting that more widespread conflict by default trumps the isolated war.

[Br3admax]

Assuming Direct Control wrote...

Br3ad wrote...

Maybe because if species were going towards extinction, someone would say something about it. The Reapers are harvesting, not exterminating. They aren't nuking planets every hour. 

Indeed, but, what happens to those that are harvested? They are killed just as any other, are they not? So, be aware that I'm including the harvested in my numbers of killed too.

Unless the Reapers are nuking, they will not kill almost a billion people per day. It's as simple as that.

[Br3admax]

Astartes Marine wrote...

Br3ad wrote...

Necanor wrote...

Br3ad wrote...

Necanor wrote...

I just don't get it, why is everyone completely ignoring the casualties of the Batarians, Volus, Hanar, Drell and Elcor? These races were hit far harder than the council races, ME3 just barely pays attention to it.

It's extremely, extremely unlikely, that the Morning War had higher casualties than the current cycle. I sincerely doubt, that the Quarian population was anywhere close to what some here claim.

That still doesn't add anywhere near 900,000,000 per day. I'm not even going to entertain that it could. 

No, it doesn't. The total number of casualties is still probably in the one or two dozen billions. 

Probably one dozen. At the most. Two dozen is pushing it. None of the races are even close to extinction, from what we've seen. Well not any closer than they were before. 

Batarians maybe, we fight ALOT of Cannibals.  Then again we fight a crap ton of Husks too so who knows?

Personally I laugh at the idea of the morning war having more dead than the Reaper invasion.  The MW affected only one species, the Reaper invasion is hitting every single species out there and while the Geth didn't pursue the Quarians the Reapers are hunting everyone down.  There's no way to get concrete solid numbers on losses, but I'm betting that more widespread conflict by default trumps the isolated war.

For every canible, there is two humans for every batarian, and since humans are not nea extinction, I think the batarians are fine. There government is gone, but they are not. 

[Assuming Direct Control]

Br3ad wrote...

Unless the Reapers are nuking, they will not kill almost a billion people per day. It's as simple as that.

But they practically were nuking entire colonies! I read all of the entries for all of the planets/moons in ME3 and quite a few of them said that the Reapers bombarded them from orbit, effectively wiping out whole swathes of the galactic population. The galaxy is huge, with lots of colonised planets in the ME universe; so almost 1 billion killed per day is perfectly reasonable in my opinion.

[Sir DeLoria]

Astartes Marine wrote...

Batarians maybe, we fight ALOT of Cannibals.  Then again we fight a crap ton of Husks too so who knows?

Personally I laugh at the idea of the morning war having more dead than the Reaper invasion.  The MW affected only one species, the Reaper invasion is hitting every single species out there and while the Geth didn't pursue the Quarians the Reapers are hunting everyone down.  There's no way to get concrete solid numbers on losses, but I'm betting that more widespread conflict by default trumps the isolated war.

The Quarians a small species, on a small world, on a world were only few areas were hospitable, with no major colonies. How their near destruction could have exceeded this entire cycle in casualties baffles me. If Tali's info is correct(it's the only info we ever get in the franchise) the total Quarian casualties should've been under 2 billion. 

Both the Rachni Wars and the Krogan Rebellions probably exceeded the Morning War in casualties(Rachni Wars actually did end in the complete extinction of a species). Heck, even the Drell exodus saw the demise of over 10 billion people.

[Astartes Marine]

Br3ad wrote...
For every canible, there is two humans for every batarian, and since humans are not nea extinction, I think the batarians are fine. There government is gone, but they are not.

I didn't say they were gone, but they were hit the hardest of everyone.  Their government has been indoctrinated for years before the invasion even began, I can only imagine the actual death toll.

[teh DRUMPf!!]

 I missed this post the first time.

Necanor wrote...

I actually have to disagree on that, HYR. It is highly doubtful Rannoch had a popualtion this high. Rannoch is a near complete desert planet with only small strips of land along the oceans being hospitable. The colonies in the Veil, like Adas or Haestrom, were almost exclusively mining colonies with a small population of workers and their respective families. Tali states in ME1, that the Quarians lost almost 99% of their population in the war. If we assume, that the population of the Migrant Fleet has held fairly steady for the last 300 years, that would result in the population being approximately 1,68 billion.

I seem to recall Tali describing Rannoch rather differently in ME2. One has to wonder if the removal of a whole species from the planet's ecosystem and a devastating war led to acute desertification, hence its appearance in ME3.

Nonetheless... the 99% figure is a high-cap, so a population of 20 billion could comfortably fit in there as well. I just used Earth because it seemed like a diplomatic example. Don't get me wrong, though, it's entirely possible that number is much small than what I estimated, but it's also possibly higher as well. Nonetheless, if one we're to believe the existence of a species capable of killing as much as the Reapers through one month will be tolerable to those previously targetted...

... what's another two months? <_<

Your calculation is not wrong, but you're neglecting a few events here. The first race to be hit were the Batarians. It is stated, that after the initial attack on Khar'Shan, there is literally nothing left of the Hegemony. The Batarians were utterly slaughtered. The codex states, that the Volus(Irune = 8,8 billion) and Elcor(Dekuuna = 2,35 billion) suffered extremely severe casualties to the Reapers in the course of the war.The Reapers weren't just harvesting the main homeworlds, they harvested any major planet, like Illium. Some colonies, like Bekenstein were just obliterated from orbit.

The Hegemony imploded from the inside. Indoctrinated agents gift-wrapped them for the Reapers pre-invasion. And then to say that they, the volus, and elcor were all slaughtered really doesn't tell us much in the way of how accurate our numbers are. A death toll of a million qualifies as "slaughter," but it's not really much when one considers how much higher it could be. We're told Earth is bearing the "brunt" of the attack, but to eradicate even 1 billion, a couple million per day is a rather slow pace (and I think people may not realize quite how big one billion really is).

[teh DRUMPf!!]

JasonShepard wrote...

@HYR: I can do you better on the estimate for number of deaths per day. The codex gives it as 1.86 million per day while Earth is occupied. (So, slightly lower than 17 million per week. Presumably the first week had higher casualties due to the whole invasion thing.)

Wow. I missed this. That's useful indeed.

... and a pretty low number, all things considered.

However, the line from Hackett is (if I've got the same one as you) "Only lost Earth a few weeks back", immediately after the geth dreadnought mission. So, 'a few' is not necessarily three. I'd be happy for it to mean anything up until 10.

So, yeah, your numbers are a little bit rough.

Oops. Somehow I remembered Hackett saying "three" (weeks back). Not sure how I mangled that.

[Sir DeLoria]

HYR 2.0 wrote...
I seem to recall Tali describing Rannoch rather differently in ME2. One has to wonder if the removal of a whole species from the planet's ecosystem and a devastating war led to acute desertification, hence its appearance in ME3.

Nonetheless... the 99% figure is a high-cap, so a population of 20 billion could comfortably fit in there as well. I just used Earth because it seemed like a diplomatic example. Don't get me wrong, though, it's entirely possible that number is much small than what I estimated, but it's also possibly higher as well. Nonetheless, if one we're to believe the existence of a species capable of killing as much as the Reapers through one month will be tolerable to those previously targetted...

I explained in a later post how due to Rannoch's geography and the pack of populated colonies, it's highly unlikely, that the Quarians had a high population. 20 billion is really over the top, even the most developed races in the galaxy don't have such a high population. Thessia for example, the oldest and most advanced planet in the galaxy only has a population of 5,5 billion, despite the ideal planetary conditions. I assume, that the total Quarian population was somewhere around/under 2 billion before the war. 

I actually agree with your original point, but that calculation just seemed very unlikely to me. The point of the post is not affected.

Modifié par Necanor, 14 septembre 2013 - 01:02 .

[KaiserShep]

Astartes Marine wrote...

Br3ad wrote...
For every canible, there is two humans for every batarian, and since humans are not nea extinction, I think the batarians are fine. There government is gone, but they are not.

I didn't say they were gone, but they were hit the hardest of everyone.  Their government has been indoctrinated for years before the invasion even began, I can only imagine the actual death toll.

According to Balak (if he's alive), Batarian ships were firing on allied targets as they were under the control of indoctrinated agents, as well as others who were taking defense grids offline. Now, imagine if that happened to the Alliance right off the bat. Hackett may not have been able to get as many ships as he did to retreat through the relay if the fleet that stayed behind was run by indoctrinated crews.

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

The thing is, HYR, you failed to include the previous 20,000 plus cycles. Since their creation, the Reapers are definitely the greatest cause of death to organics in the galaxy. The number starts to add up into the quadrillions. Do the reapers deserve death? Yes.

[KaiserShep]

sH0tgUn jUliA wrote...

The thing is, HYR, you failed to include the previous 20,000 plus cycles. Since their creation, the Reapers are definitely the greatest cause of death to organics in the galaxy. The number starts to add up into the quadrillions. Do the reapers deserve death? Yes.

Ignoring the previous cycles for a moment, the reapers made their intentions clear that all advanced civilizations are going to be wiped out. Even if during their relatively short invasion of the galaxy, they have not yet inflicted casualties equal to the lives lost to the geth before Sovereign's intervention, it's a very reasonable and obvious prediction that if left unfettered, they would quickly surpass that number by an order of magnitude.

[Reorte]

Some people are still dragging out the "quarians got what they deserved" line? Might as well shoot yourself if you think that because considering probably every government on Earth in reality is no better we all deserve to die. Fortunately I don't think that people deserve to live or die based on what government they're unlucky enough to be stuck with.

[Display Name Owner]

So, was this actually an attempt to start a guessing game or what?

If it was you really should have kept the Quarians/Geth out of it for a while OP. You should have seen this coming.