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[In Exile]

Xilizhra wrote...
None do. The Warden explicitly vanishes without Leliana,

The Warden gets two epilogues with an Leliana. At the end of DA:O, they're a happy couple. At the end of DA:A, they're a happy couple. Even if we say DA2 broke that, that still makes it 2/3 games with a happy ending. 

and Hawke is heavily implied to do the same. There's a ray of potential there, maybe, but I wouldn't trust it too far.

Varric straight up says Hawke left Kirkwall with her LI. Cass says that Hawke dissapeared. There's nothing there to suggest that Hawke dissapeared alone. 

[In Exile]

azarhal wrote...
Gaspard is just an opportunist. In Asunder, he tried to "recruit" mages to his cause. He's probably thinking of backstabbing the Elves once he doesn't need them anymore and right now from what we know of Masked Empire  (and Asunder hints), he used the elves to get Celene out of Val-Royaux and ambush her.

The elves trying to win their homeland as a handout from humans won't work. The CEs have to take it by force. If Gaspard wants to give them weapons they should take them while going "LOL LOL LOL", but selling him out to Celene if he takes the upper hand in a civil war should be their first move. 

If anything, I'd wager that's Briala's gameplan and why she "switched" sides. 

[Xilizhra]

The Warden gets two epilogues with an Leliana. At the end of DA:O, they're a happy couple. At the end of DA:A, they're a happy couple. Even if we say DA2 broke that, that still makes it 2/3 games with a happy ending.

The overall relationship does not. It's quite possible for Bioware to ruin something decent it made once, which it did. In any case, the epilogues are explicitly noncanon.

Varric straight up says Hawke left Kirkwall with her LI. Cass says that Hawke dissapeared. There's nothing there to suggest that Hawke dissapeared alone.

Except precedent from the Warden and the impossibility of using anyone in DAI if they were with Hawke at the time, if they're still together. The case may not be proven yet, but it doesn't look good.

And it'd certainly look better if any relationships without the protagonist's godly powers had turned out well, which some straight relationships do.

[BlueMagitek]

In Exile wrote...
The elves trying to win their homeland as a handout from humans won't work. The CEs have to take it by force. If Gaspard wants to give them weapons they should take them while going "LOL LOL LOL", but selling him out to Celene if he takes the upper hand in a civil war should be their first move. 

If anything, I'd wager that's Briala's gameplan and why she "switched" sides.

Nonsense, the City Elves have a unique opportunity to earn greater citizenship and break out of the alienage. 

[Little Princess Peach]

TheKomandorShepard wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

Bioware always ruins lesbian relationships. It seems all but canon by this point. My impression is not a good one.

Well in da every relationships is ruined so

Tell me about it if you don't vanish into thin air you get you're head chopped off

[BlueMagitek]

No, there was one happy couple. The Kents, who adopted not Superman in DA:O.

[In Exile]

Xilizhra wrote...
The overall relationship does not. It's quite possible for Bioware to ruin something decent it made once, which it did. In any case, the epilogues are explicitly noncanon.

I just didn't feel that way in my Leliana romance. To me, even if the relationship ended, it can't erase what was blindingly pure love at the start throughout DA:O. That it isn't "forever" can't impugn the relationship.

But this might also be because I'm bad at long-term relationships and probably would go insane in one that lasted for that many years. 

And it'd certainly look better if any relationships without the protagonist's godly powers had turned out well, which some straight relationships do.

I'm with you entirely on Bioware needing more S/S couples of both genders as NPCs, no question at all. In fact, I think Bioware needs more NPCs that aren't straight full stop. 

That said, which straight relationships actually work out? The only ones that I can think that doesn't end tragically at the end of a game (assuming you got them toghether in the former case) are Aveline/Donnic and Wade/Herren.

[Thunderfox]

Modifié par ThunderfoxF, 13 septembre 2013 - 02:13 .

[Ryzaki]

Tharja wrote...

TheKomandorShepard wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

Bioware always ruins lesbian relationships. It seems all but canon by this point. My impression is not a good one.

Well in da every relationships is ruined so

Tell me about it if you don't vanish into thin air you get you're head chopped off

Seriously.

Pretty much no one ends up happy in DA. Or if they do it's not long before they get brutally murdered by some psycho douchemobile that we kill later.

[Maria Caliban]

Xilizhra wrote...

Bioware always ruins lesbian relationships. It seems all but canon by this point. My impression is not a good one.

It is odd how female same-sex relationships (Branka and Hespith, Leliana and Marjoline, and now Empress and elf-gal) all end in betrayal.

[Xilizhra]

I just didn't feel that way in my Leliana romance. To me, even if the relationship ended, it can't erase what was blindingly pure love at the start throughout DA:O. That it isn't "forever" can't impugn the relationship.

But this might also be because I'm bad at long-term relationships and probably would go insane in one that lasted for that many years.

I have every intention of staying in one forever. And it impugns the presentation.

I'm with you entirely on Bioware needing more S/S couples of both genders as NPCs, no question at all. In fact, I think Bioware needs more NPCs that aren't straight full stop.

That said, which straight relationships actually work out? The only ones that I can think that doesn't end tragically at the end of a game (assuming you got them toghether in the former case) are Aveline/Donnic and Wade/Herren.

Cammen/Gheyna, Behlen/Rica, quite a few married couples who appear in passing but have no noticeable major issues, Eamon/Isolde, possibly others I'm missing.

[thats1evildude]

Oghren also got shafted in that relationship, but I suppose that doesn't matter, does it?

Xilizhra wrote...

I have every intention of staying in one forever. And it impugns the presentation.

On a long enough timeline, every relationship ends in tragedy.

Modifié par thats1evildude, 13 septembre 2013 - 02:38 .

[Maria Caliban]

thats1evildude wrote...

Oghren also got shafted in that relationship, but I suppose that doesn't matter, does it?

Branka dumped Oghren and left without him. Branka handed Hespith over to the darkspawn to be raped and transformed into a broodmother.

Yeah, I'm not seeing that as equivalent.

[Master Warder Z_]

Maria Caliban wrote...

thats1evildude wrote...

Oghren also got shafted in that relationship, but I suppose that doesn't matter, does it?

Branka dumped Oghren and left without him. Branka handed Hespith over to the darkspawn to be raped and transformed into a broodmother.

Yeah, I'm not seeing that as equivalent.

It was an immense disgrace that led him into a downward spiral of drunkness that ended up costing him his ability to protect his city and made even traveling to the surface seem preferable.

Yeah i would say his life was pretty much utterly ruined by Branka leaving him, At least as far Dwarven society goes.

Not to the extent of Hespith perhaps but still he got royally screwed over as well.

[thats1evildude]

As Master Warder said, Branka's betrayal destroyed Oghren. He might not have been left for darkspawn to turn into a monstrosity, but his existence was not an enviable one.

My point is that Branka destroyed everyone around her, in one way or another. As did Marjolaine. They were bad people.

Modifié par thats1evildude, 13 septembre 2013 - 02:44 .

[Maria Caliban]

He was dumped. He wasn't betrayed, abused, or tortured. Yes, it's sad, but it did not 'ruin his life,' that was all on him.

[Jedi Master of Orion]

Hespith personally suffered a much worse fate than Oghren of course but technically In terms of whether the relationship worked out or not, neither one did.

But more importantly do any of the examples cited seem like they were conceived as betrayals first and lesbian relationships later or lesbian relationships first that ended in betrayal? Because they strike me as the former. There's certainly a whole lot of other betrayals in the games.

[thats1evildude]

Maria Caliban wrote...

He was dumped. He wasn't betrayed, abused, or tortured. Yes, it's sad, but it did not 'ruin his life,' that was all on him.

The fact that he was disgraced by Branka's betrayal is what turned him into a severe alcoholic, which was only exacerbated when he wasn't allowed to fight anymore. Yes, Branka did ruin his life.

And yes, Marjolaine's betrayal did screw over Leliana, but Tug also got tortured to death as a result of her actions.

Modifié par thats1evildude, 13 septembre 2013 - 02:49 .

[Thunderfox]

Xilizhra wrote...

I just didn't feel that way in my Leliana romance. To me, even if the relationship ended, it can't erase what was blindingly pure love at the start throughout DA:O. That it isn't "forever" can't impugn the relationship.

But this might also be because I'm bad at long-term relationships and probably would go insane in one that lasted for that many years.

I have every intention of staying in one forever. And it impugns the presentation.

I'm with you entirely on Bioware needing more S/S couples of both genders as NPCs, no question at all. In fact, I think Bioware needs more NPCs that aren't straight full stop.

That said, which straight relationships actually work out? The only ones that I can think that doesn't end tragically at the end of a game (assuming you got them toghether in the former case) are Aveline/Donnic and Wade/Herren.

Cammen/Gheyna, Behlen/Rica, quite a few married couples who appear in passing but have no noticeable major issues, Eamon/Isolde, possibly others I'm missing.

And those couples you mention can all get terriblely messed up aswell, unlike say Wade/Herren who stay together even when the Darkspawn win. Plus theres F!Aeducan/Gorim that gets messed up, any other NPC happy couple would be incredibly minor

Compared to most media, especially games Bioware is pretty equalitarian. Could they be better? Yes, but they're still blazing the trail of homosexuality in gaming

Modifié par ThunderfoxF, 13 septembre 2013 - 02:50 .

[Siona]

Jedi Master of Orion wrote...

Hespith personally suffered a much worse fate than Oghren of course but technically In terms of whether the relationship worked out or not, neither one did.

But more importantly do any of the examples cited seem like they were conceived as betrayals first and lesbian relationships later or lesbian relationships first that ended in betrayal? Because they strike me as the former. There's certainly a whole lot of other betrayals in the games.

It's not quite a fair comparison though when the *only* canon lesbian relationships in the game that aren't controlled by the PC end up with death and betrayel. There's a lot of straight pairings that end up the same way, true, but they're countered by the many that do not. 

I don't think anyone's saying that you *can't* have unhealthy gay relationships because that's unrealistic and uncreative, but when they're the only one's we're seeing, that's kind of a problem. 

[Maria Caliban]

No, leaving someone does not cause them to become an alcoholic or a murderer. Yes, having your wife leave you sucks, and she could have been nicer about it, but what happened next is totally Oghren's fault.

And again, leaving your partner is not 'betraying' them.

[Jedi Master of Orion]

Siona wrote...

Jedi Master of Orion wrote...

Hespith personally suffered a much worse fate than Oghren of course but technically In terms of whether the relationship worked out or not, neither one did.

But more importantly do any of the examples cited seem like they were conceived as betrayals first and lesbian relationships later or lesbian relationships first that ended in betrayal? Because they strike me as the former. There's certainly a whole lot of other betrayals in the games.

It's not quite a fair comparison though when the *only* canon lesbian relationships in the game that aren't controlled by the PC end up with death and betrayel. There's a lot of straight pairings that end up the same way, true, but they're countered by the many that do not. 

I don't think anyone's saying that you *can't* have unhealthy gay relationships because that's unrealistic and uncreative, but when they're the only one's we're seeing, that's kind of a problem. 

Maybe, but I still think 3 is a little too small of a sample to make claims of a general trend.

Modifié par Jedi Master of Orion, 13 septembre 2013 - 02:53 .

[thats1evildude]

What "many" straight relationships are we talking about here that end happily? Cammen and Gheyna can be permanently broken up by the Warden or killed by werewolves. Isolde and Eamon had a child who was possessed by a demon and potentially murdered by the Warden. Rica is still Bhelen's casteless **** and will ALWAYS be regarded as such by dwarven society.

Maria Caliban wrote...

No, leaving someone does not cause them to become an alcoholic or a murderer. Yes, having your wife leave you sucks, and she could have been nicer about it, but what happened next is totally Oghren's fault. 

And again, leaving your partner is not 'betraying' them.

It is when you're a dwarf and your Paragon wife marches your entire house into the Deep Roads except for you.

You're equating Branka leaving Oghren behind with a modern relationship that ends in separation - sad, but hardly the end of the world. You're not considering the stigma that would be placed on Oghren.

The poor bastard is still clinging to the belief that "everything will be better" upon finding Branka at Caridin's hideout. If that's not indicative of severe emotional abuse or emphasize how completely hopeless Oghren's situation is, then I don't know what does.

Modifié par thats1evildude, 13 septembre 2013 - 03:02 .

[Xilizhra]

On a long enough timeline, every relationship ends in tragedy.

Irrelevant if it the narrative doesn't bring it up.

And those couples you mention can all get terriblely messed up aswell, unlike say Wade/Herren who stay together even when the Darkspawn win. Plus theres F!Aeducan/Gorim that gets messed up, any other NPC happy couple would be incredibly minor

It doesn't matter a damn when you can make them work, unlike all possible lesbian relationships that are irrevocably doomed.

Compared to most media, especially games Bioware is pretty equalitarian. Could they be better? Yes, but they're still blazing the trail of homosexuality in gaming

Except Austin, which is a complete piece of ****. Aside from that, yes, but they also have to do better.

[Maria Caliban]

ThunderfoxF wrote...


And those couples you mention can all get terriblely messed up aswell...

There's the possibility they're messed up. The PC can ruin the couples if the player desires. The PC cannot impact the lesbians couples.

...Wade/Herren who stay together even when the Darkspawn win.

Perhaps you didn't notice, but Wade and Herren aren't women.

Could they be better? Yes...

Glad we agree they could be better.