226 réponses à ce sujet

[Jedi Master of Orion]

Wouldn't she still be beyond the Fade through the Eluvian?

Modifié par Jedi Master of Orion, 13 septembre 2013 - 08:48 .

[JediHealerCosmin]

EntropicAngel wrote...

So...what is this thread about?

From what I gather, the elves are taking over Orlais and passing a law which states that normal couples are forbidden because of tragedy striking in 3seconds...

Or am I missing the point?

[ViSeiRa]

Maria Caliban wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

Bioware always ruins lesbian relationships. It seems all but canon by this point. My impression is not a good one.

It is odd how female same-sex relationships (Branka and Hespith, Leliana and Marjoline, and now Empress and elf-gal) all end in betrayal.

What if Briala made the pact with Gaspard at the behest of Celene, like a double betrayal... the description seems to give out a major plot point in the book, unless it was there to set up the stage for a proper plot twist.

Modifié par ViSeirA, 13 septembre 2013 - 02:34 .

[The Elder King]

I agree with Viseira that Briala's betrayal could be something planned by her and Celene.

The point is, it's better to wait after the book is published before making judgements about its portrayals of lesbian couples.

I'm more interested in seeing if the city elves will really make an alliance with one of the factions, and what the dalish would do. It seems unlikely that the latter will form and alliance with Orlesians, regardless if Celene or Gaspard.

Modifié par hhh89, 13 septembre 2013 - 02:04 .

[Xilizhra]

The point is, wait after the book is published before making judgements about its portrayals of lesbian couples.

I think it's best to get the reaction to potential problems out there before the book is actually finished. It might already be, but I'm willing to hope.

[Aolbain]

For the record, we managed to keep this thing on topic for about 20 posts.

[Nethalf]

Well, they misspelled Briala's name, should we trust B&N? One sleepy B&N dude might just made that all up.

Modifié par Nethalf, 13 septembre 2013 - 02:25 .

[Savber100]

I love it. Why?

If Bioware pulls it off and shows the Duke is more than a big bad but is instead a political cunning and also sympathetic to the elven plight... That would be a fantastic antagonist.

[Aolbain]

Nethalf wrote...

Well, they misspelled Briala's name, should we trust B&N? One sleepy B&N dude might just made that all out.

True. I mean, whoever on Bantam that did the blurb for A Storm Of Swords managed to make Joffery the proantagonist.

[The Elder King]

Xilizhra wrote...

I think it's best to get the reaction to potential problems out there before the book is actually finished. It might already be, but I'm willing to hope.

I seriously doubt that they're going to change the outcome of a relationship (IF they have decided to end it) because of the fans' reaction. Well, at least based on the reaction I saw there, which is pretty small.

And I'm usually on the opinion that writers shoudn't be conditionated by the fans' reaction. If PAtrick decided to end the relationship between Celene and Briala, he should do so and be prepared to receive some critics for the decision. And I doubt that he's not already aware of the fact that there'll be some negative critics if he goes to that route.

[ViSeiRa]

hhh89 wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

I think it's best to get the reaction to potential problems out there before the book is actually finished. It might already be, but I'm willing to hope.

I seriously doubt that they're going to change the outcome of a relationship (IF they have decided to end it) because of the fans' reaction. Well, at least based on the reaction I saw there, which is pretty small.

And I'm usually on the opinion that writers shoudn't be conditionated by the fans' reaction. If PAtrick decided to end the relationship between Celene and Briala, he should do so and be prepared to receive some critics for the decision. And I doubt that he's not already aware of the fact that there'll be some negative critics if he goes to that route.

Not to mention the ones who will critique him for being a Mass Effect writer who knows nothing about the Dragon Age universe if they read something they don't like... I can see it already.

[syllogi]

devSin wrote...

Yeah, right before saying that Kaidan was queer enough to be bisexual but Ashley was too normal for it.

Pass.

Yep.  Between this and how immature and tawdry the Traynor/Femshep romance was in ME3, I really don't have any interest in reading this particular writer take a pass at the ever so familiar treacherous lesbian trope.

[Jaulen]

Hmm.....my lover or my people?

I'd pick my people in a heartbeat. Especially with the near invisible status that elves have in Orlais....second class citizen-slaves.....Arlathan will rise! (although things never seem to work out for the elves...let's make this into a 'Bioware must hate elves since nothing ever works out for them thread*)

And Branka is a stupid example for a SS relationship betrayal, she betrayed EVERYONE, male....female.....lover.....non-lover. (and no...Branka didn't 'break up' with Oghren.....she just up and left him (disingenuous to call that a 'break up')......his back was turned and she slipped into the night with the whole house.....she must have been huffing too many smelting fumes, all those vaporized heavy metals turned her brain into mush...crazy evil-b that she was)

[Mykel54]

Is it wrong that i only care about this book because of the added context to the storyline in DAI? I do not believe even for a second that this will be a good novel.

Am i alone on this or you people also care only because of DAI? Seems like the book plans to use people´s hype for the game in order to get more sales.

Modifié par Mykel54, 13 septembre 2013 - 03:05 .

[Jaulen]

Mykel54 wrote...

Is it wrong that i only care about this book because of the added context to the storyline in DAI? I do not believe even for a second that this will be a good novel.

Am i alone on this or you people also care only because of DAI? Seems like the book plans to use people´s hype for the game in order to get more sales.

Nope. Whole reason I care about the book....and why I cared about Asunder.
Lore, backstory, and context....whole reason for VG tie in books if you ask me.

[Azaron Nightblade]

hhh89 wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

I think it's best to get the reaction to potential problems out there before the book is actually finished. It might already be, but I'm willing to hope.

I seriously doubt that they're going to change the outcome of a relationship (IF they have decided to end it) because of the fans' reaction. Well, at least based on the reaction I saw there, which is pretty small.

And I'm usually on the opinion that writers shoudn't be conditionated by the fans' reaction. If PAtrick decided to end the relationship between Celene and Briala, he should do so and be prepared to receive some critics for the decision. And I doubt that he's not already aware of the fact that there'll be some negative critics if he goes to that route.

Yep, pretty sure that ship has already sailed.
And even if it hadn't, I agree that no writer would rewrite parts of his story to please a few outspoken fans - the characters in question are pretty much blank slates at this point anyway, we know a few details about them - but that's pretty much it.

[Azaron Nightblade]

Jaulen wrote...

Mykel54 wrote...

Is it wrong that i only care about this book because of the added context to the storyline in DAI? I do not believe even for a second that this will be a good novel.

Am i alone on this or you people also care only because of DAI? Seems like the book plans to use people´s hype for the game in order to get more sales.

Nope. Whole reason I care about the book....and why I cared about Asunder.
Lore, backstory, and context....whole reason for VG tie in books if you ask me.

You're definitely not alone in that.
If it wasn't for the Dragon Age setting it's very unlikely that I would buy a book from an author I don't know.
That being said, I did think Asunder was a good book and I've enjoyed reading it - hopefully I'll be able to say the same about this one.

[MissOuJ]

syllogi wrote...

devSin wrote...

Yeah, right before saying that Kaidan was queer enough to be bisexual but Ashley was too normal for it.

Pass.

Yep.  Between this and how immature and tawdry the Traynor/Femshep romance was in ME3, I really don't have any interest in reading this particular writer take a pass at the ever so familiar treacherous lesbian trope.

I'm still clinging on to the shreads of my optimism that this book will be good and won't go there.

But... yeah. Pretty much.

(( and that comment about Ash in the panel made me so ridiculously angry I can't even ... "didn't suit her character?" WTH? Bisexuality is a character trait now? Silly me, I thought it was sexual orientation that didn't require any particular "character trait" to materialise. But apparently brave + independent + religious or any combination of the three rule out bisexuality somehow? IDEK ))

<_<

[Plaintiff]

thats1evildude wrote...

In Exile wrote...

Being a jerk is so far removed from throwing someone away to be forcibly raped and abused before mutated into a monstrosity that even so much as treating the former act as immoral is a little absurd..

My point was never to equate Oghren's suffering with Hespith's, but merely to show that Branka destroyed the lives of everyone around her. She also caused the deaths of the couple hundred other members of her house in her mad quest for the Anvil.

The Anvil of the Void questline doesn't require Hespith to be in a relationship with Branka; you could excise that detail easily and it would barely change anything. But it does emphasize the depravity of her actions - that she would not only throw the other members of her house to the darkspawn horde to achieve her goals, but her own lover as well.

It's not there to impart some hidden message that all lesbian relationships are DOOOOOOOOOOOOOMED to fail.

Nobody is saying that Bioware is putting any "hidden messages" in their depiction of lesbian relationships.

They're saying that Bioware is being incredibly thoughtless in their depiction of lesbian relationships.

The fact is there's a trend in media where gay/lesbian relationships end badly. Even if the failing of lesbian relationships was "fair" within the context of the Dragon Age series, straight people have a million examples of positive heterosexual relationships in media generally, while gays and lesbians have much fewer.

Being aware of the larger cultural context of your work is just the smart thing to do. Bioware is not required to depict healthy lesbian relationships if they don't want to, but by the same token, they have no legitimate defense against criticism of their lesbian relationships. They're perpetuating a harmful stereotype and people are right to criticise them for it.

Modifié par Plaintiff, 13 septembre 2013 - 05:48 .

[Heimdall]

Plaintiff wrote...

Nobody is saying that Bioware is putting any "hidden messages" in their depiction of lesbian relationships.

They're saying that Bioware is being incredibly thoughtless in their depiction of lesbian relationships.

The fact is there's a trend in media where gay/lesbian relationships end badly. Even if the failing of lesbian relationships was "fair" within the context of the Dragon Age series, straight people have a million examples of positive heterosexual relationships in media generally, while gays and lesbians have much fewer.

Being aware of the larger cultural context of your work is just the smart thing to do. Bioware is not required to depict healthy lesbian relationships if they don't want to, but by the same token, they have no legitimate defense against criticism of their lesbian relationships. They're perpetuating a harmful stereotype and people are right to criticise them for it.

But they treat all relationships similarly.  Relationships just don't tend to end well in Dragon Age.  Its certainly fan prerogative to criticize them for it, but I don't see how giving them special treatment would help.

[Lotion Soronarr]

They're saying that Bioware is being incredibly thoughtless in their depiction of lesbian relationships.

Oh, FFS!!!!

[Sylvianus]

It's really hard sometimes not to be rude.

" Please, make a happy relationship into the story, because of one specific reason out of story and politics. Do not care about many human factors that could influence anyone into the story. Yeah, I know, I didn't read the book yet, it's stupid, but I hope you'll change your original story to please me and my agenda. "

Pathetic.

The relationship should be straight, at least nobody would complain with drama happening to the couple, which is pretty much the thing of DA. Nobody would care.

Modifié par Sylvianus, 13 septembre 2013 - 09:02 .

[In Exile]

Lord Aesir wrote...
But they treat all relationships similarly.  Relationships just don't tend to end well in Dragon Age.  Its certainly fan prerogative to criticize them for it, but I don't see how giving them special treatment would help.

I think Xil made a pretty convincing case that this is false, insofar as even if grant that the "vast majority" of relationships end badly, of the set that "end well", all are heteresexual except Wade/Herren. 

Even if everyone is equal in the bad, in other words, they're not equal in the good, and that's the objection.

Also, thanks Xil for helping me understand this point!

[Maria Caliban]

ViSeirA wrote...

What if Briala made the pact with Gaspard at the behest of Celene, like a double betrayal... the description seems to give out a major plot point in the book, unless it was there to set up the stage for a proper plot twist.

That's a possibility.

Mykel54 wrote...

Is it wrong that i only care about this book because of the added context to the storyline in DAI? I do not believe even for a second that this will be a good novel.

Am i alone on this or you people also care only because of DAI? Seems like the book plans to use people´s hype for the game in order to get more sales.

I've picked up previous Mass Effect and Dragon Age novels by other authors. I am willing to give Weekes a chance. I don't expect it will be good by my standards but hope it will be average by the standards of the western fantasy genre.

Modifié par Maria Caliban, 13 septembre 2013 - 10:09 .

[Wulfram]

Maybe Briala and Celene will both find new women and live happily ever after with them?