226 réponses à ce sujet

[Maria Caliban]

Wulfram wrote...

Maybe Briala and Celene will both find new women and live happily ever after with them?

The lack of murder would be welcome.

Xilizhra wrote...

I think it's best to get the reaction to potential problems out there before the book is actually finished. It might already be, but I'm willing to hope.

Books are often finished 6-9 months before they hit shelves. I doubt he's making any major revisions at this point.

[DebatableBubble]

Could a mod please just shut this topic down? This is ridiculous.

[Wibbley Wobbley Fez]

If either Celene or Briala are murdered the reason would be political, not because of their sexuality. With an Eleven uprising in Orlais I can see how Briala would begin to question her loyalties. It is a question about where her loyalties lie. Does she sacrifice her people or her lover? In that retrospect, I think the fact that they are both women is trivial. How their actions might affect the world is the thing to consider.

[Maria Caliban]

Trivial to you. I think that for many people, the question of an elf's loyalty to her people and its impact on a game's fantasy world would be trivial.

[Mr.House]

Xilizhra wrote...

Books are often finished 6-9 months before they hit shelves. I doubt he's making any major revisions at this point.

Then we can at least prep the fires if we have to burn him alive.

[Xilizhra]

Mr.House wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

Books are often finished 6-9 months before they hit shelves. I doubt he's making any major revisions at this point.

Then we can at least prep the fires if we have to burn him alive.

Well, I'm not a mage IRL; I can't just summon fire.

[Mr.House]

Xilizhra wrote...

Mr.House wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

Books are often finished 6-9 months before they hit shelves. I doubt he's making any major revisions at this point.

Then we can at least prep the fires if we have to burn him alive.

Well, I'm not a mage IRL; I can't just summon fire.

Threating to burn Patrick alive is immature, I thought you learned your leason when you said all people who enjoyed TW2 should die.

[AresKeith]

I like how the thread got derailed by Xil

[Zjarcal]

Welp, it reeks of stupid in here.

Modifié par Zjarcal, 14 septembre 2013 - 01:25 .

[MisterMonkeyBanana]

I kinda wish that the relationship in the Masked Empire was male on male. It may sound REALLY cynical (probably because... it is) but it seems like F/F is a lot "safer" than M/M. I'm not talking about actual real world relationships of course, but for a market which is at least perceived/ primarily caters for heterosexual males exclusively, two women seems less controversial than two guys.

Sort of like how Kotor was going to have a F/F romance but a M/M before it had none, or how Mass Effect had a F/F but no M/M until ME3.

Not to insult the author of course, since to be fair it is already established that Orlais has an Empress not an Emperor and that the status difference is waaaaaaay more important to the plot than sexuality.

[Ianamus]

I remember the old thread detailing how every NPC relationship between two women in a Bioware game ends in an extremely negative way. Often involving betrayal or murder. It was a very convincing argument, and it was actually true when I thought about it. 

The relationship between Celene and Briala doesn't have to have a happy ending if it doesn't work with their story, but it would be nice to see Bioware subvert their questionable trend and have an NPC relationship between two women that doesn't end in distaster. If not in the masked empire then in Inquisition. 

Modifié par EJ107, 14 septembre 2013 - 01:36 .

[The Elder King]

Xilizhra wrote...

Books are often finished 6-9 months before they hit shelves. I doubt he's making any major revisions at this point.

Then we can at least prep the fires if we have to burn him alive.

That's exaggerating. Greatly. I can underrstand being angry/pissed/furious if the relationship will end badly, but what you're saying (regardless if it's a joke or not) is far too extreme to suggest.
I'm start to wondering what you would do if in Inquisition things related to mages and dalish will not turn out the way you want.

Modifié par hhh89, 14 septembre 2013 - 01:36 .

[Mr.House]

EJ107 wrote...

I remember the old thread detailing how every NPC relationship between two women in a Bioware game ends in an extremely negative way. Often involving betrayal or murder. It was a very convincing argument, and It was actually true when I thought about it. 

The relationship between Celene and Briala doesn't have to have a happy ending if it doesn't work with their story, but It would be nice to see Bioware subvert their questionable trend and have an NPC relationship between two women that doesn't end in distaster.

No relationship but Wade and Harren turn out good, outright fail or need help. It is just not lesbian couples.

[Xilizhra]

Threating to burn Patrick alive is immature, I thought you learned your leason when you said all people who enjoyed TW2 should die.

You can't possibly have thought that I meant literally? The absurdity of the statement speaks for itself. It's logistically impossible on numerous levels.

That's exaggerating. Greatly. I can underrstand being angry/pissed/furious if the relationship will end badly, but what you're saying (regardless if it's a joke or not) is far too extreme to suggest.
I'm start to wondering what you would do if in Inquisition things related to mages and dalish will not turn out the way you want.

In-game or out?

No relationship but Wade and Harren turn out good, outright fail or need help. It is just not lesbian couples.

How often are you going to continue being wrong? I've said numerous times that I'm fine if a relationship needs PC help to continue surviving; it's that not even any of those exist. All are doomed.

[Ianamus]

Mr.House wrote...

EJ107 wrote...

I remember the old thread detailing how every NPC relationship between two women in a Bioware game ends in an extremely negative way. Often involving betrayal or murder. It was a very convincing argument, and It was actually true when I thought about it. 

The relationship between Celene and Briala doesn't have to have a happy ending if it doesn't work with their story, but It would be nice to see Bioware subvert their questionable trend and have an NPC relationship between two women that doesn't end in distaster.

No relationship but Wade and Harren turn out good, outright fail or need help. It is just not lesbian couples.

That's not true. I can think of several married NPC's who seemed satisfied, like the de Launcet's. If the biggest problem they had was ceremaic cow decorations I don't think their marriage could have been all that bad. 

And that's not even getting into Mass Effect, which has the exact same issue. 

Modifié par EJ107, 14 septembre 2013 - 01:42 .

[Mr.House]

The De Launcet's where happy? You mean a wife that lies and keeps secrets from her husband which almost resulted in their sons death? Ya great couple.

[The Elder King]

@Xilzhra: Out. Though I'm curious to know what would you do in-game.

[Plaintiff]

Lord Aesir wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...

Nobody is saying that Bioware is putting any "hidden messages" in their depiction of lesbian relationships.

They're saying that Bioware is being incredibly thoughtless in their depiction of lesbian relationships.

The fact is there's a trend in media where gay/lesbian relationships end badly. Even if the failing of lesbian relationships was "fair" within the context of the Dragon Age series, straight people have a million examples of positive heterosexual relationships in media generally, while gays and lesbians have much fewer.

Being aware of the larger cultural context of your work is just the smart thing to do. Bioware is not required to depict healthy lesbian relationships if they don't want to, but by the same token, they have no legitimate defense against criticism of their lesbian relationships. They're perpetuating a harmful stereotype and people are right to criticise them for it.

But they treat all relationships similarly.  Relationships just don't tend to end well in Dragon Age.  Its certainly fan prerogative to criticize them for it, but I don't see how giving them special treatment would help.

Again, that the situation is "fair" within the context of Dragon Age isn't really relevant. Heterosexuals have a million examples of healthy, happy, succesful straight relationships in other videogames and media generally.

Having a straight relationship end in betrayal and tragedy doesn't contribute to a wider culture of heterosexism that consistently depicts homosexual relationships as unhealthy and ultimately failures. People often think they're being progressive by showing gay couples at all, but they don't think about the message that their depiction of homosexuals is actually sending.

[Xilizhra]

hhh89 wrote...

@Xilzhra: Out. Though I'm curious to know what would you do in-game.

In: What I always do. I'll fight for the mage and Dalish causes as hard as possible. The outcome in DA2 wasn't optimal either, but that didn't stop me.
Out: As I have a girlfriend and my depression is on a relative downswing and has been for a while, very probably nothing beyond Internet rage.

[Ianamus]

Mr.House wrote...

The De Launcet's where happy? You mean a wife that lies and keeps secrets from her husband which almost resulted in their sons death? Ya great couple.

They had a small argument over the wife meeting the son in secret and giving him some money. And in my game their son survived anyway. Their relationship itself seemed perfectly fine. The relationship doesn't even end, which is one of the criteria for "ending in a negative way". 

What remotely positive examples of female relationships do we have? Marjolaine betraying Leliana by branding her a traitor to save her own skin? Branka allowing her lover to become a broodmother in order to gain acces to the anvil of the void? Morinth seducing and killing an innocent girl?

How do any of those compare to a relatively small domestic argument in an otherwise seemingly happy marriage?

There aren't even any examples where the player can make the relationship work through their actions, while there are at least two heterosexual relationship's where the player can do this in dragon age. 

Modifié par EJ107, 14 septembre 2013 - 01:56 .

[The Elder King]

Xilizhra wrote...

hhh89 wrote...

@Xilzhra: Out. Though I'm curious to know what would you do in-game.

In: What I always do. I'll fight for the mage and Dalish causes as hard as possible. The outcome in DA2 wasn't optimal either, but that didn't stop me.
Out: As I have a girlfriend and my depression is on a relative downswing and has been for a while, very probably nothing beyond Internet rage.

True, DA2 didn't have an optimal outcome for anyone, regardless of their stance. I think that the most likely thing that could cause disappointment for the mages is that the war might not end in DAI. The dalish are a more complicate matter, since I doubt that Bioware will make Orlais crumble (either canonically or has a possible outcome). I do think that the game seems to deal with a lot of plots possible of changing Thedas. I wonder how they handle all of them.
I'm sorry to know about your depression. Best of luck of keeping it down.

[Xilizhra]

Thank you. I just find certain attitudes within this franchise and elsewhere incredibly frustrating and frequently want to lash out and give some a taste of my wrath. And I don't want to reserve judgment because I can at least say that I tried here if it goes wrong.

[Plaintiff]

In Exile wrote...
I think Xil made a pretty convincing case that this is false, insofar as even if grant that the "vast majority" of relationships end badly, of the set that "end well", all are heteresexual except Wade/Herren. 

Even if everyone is equal in the bad, in other words, they're not equal in the good, and that's the objection.

Also, thanks Xil for helping me understand this point!

I wouldn't count Wade and Herren either, personally, since at no point is it ever actually stated in-game that they are in a relationship. They're 'Dumbledore Gay', which for all practical purposes is the same as not being gay at all.

Modifié par Plaintiff, 14 septembre 2013 - 02:11 .

[Mr.House]

Plaintiff wrote...

In Exile wrote...
I think Xil made a pretty convincing case that this is false, insofar as even if grant that the "vast majority" of relationships end badly, of the set that "end well", all are heteresexual except Wade/Herren. 

Even if everyone is equal in the bad, in other words, they're not equal in the good, and that's the objection.

Also, thanks Xil for helping me understand this point!

I wouldn't count Wade and Herren either, personally, since at no point is it ever actually stated in-game that they are in a relationship. They're 'Dumbledore Gay', which for all practical purposes is the same as not being gay at all.

How in the hell are they Dumbledore gay?

Modifié par Mr.House, 14 septembre 2013 - 02:13 .