226 réponses à ce sujet

[Ianamus]

Plaintiff wrote...

In Exile wrote...
I think Xil made a pretty convincing case that this is false, insofar as even if grant that the "vast majority" of relationships end badly, of the set that "end well", all are heteresexual except Wade/Herren. 

Even if everyone is equal in the bad, in other words, they're not equal in the good, and that's the objection.

Also, thanks Xil for helping me understand this point!

I wouldn't count Wade and Herren either, personally, since at no point is it ever actually stated in-game that they are in a relationship. They're 'Dumbledore Gay', which for all practical purposes is the same as not being gay at all.

And that's not even getting into the DLC where it turns out one of them is actually desire demon. I know I read later that it was just an alternate reality and that it wasn't 'canon', but how was I to know that just by playing the DLC?

Modifié par EJ107, 14 septembre 2013 - 02:14 .

[Mr.House]

EJ107 wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...

In Exile wrote...
I think Xil made a pretty convincing case that this is false, insofar as even if grant that the "vast majority" of relationships end badly, of the set that "end well", all are heteresexual except Wade/Herren. 

Even if everyone is equal in the bad, in other words, they're not equal in the good, and that's the objection.

Also, thanks Xil for helping me understand this point!

I wouldn't count Wade and Herren either, personally, since at no point is it ever actually stated in-game that they are in a relationship. They're 'Dumbledore Gay', which for all practical purposes is the same as not being gay at all.

And that's not even getting into the DLC where it turns out one of them is actually desire demon. I know I read later that it was just an alternate reality and that it wasn't 'canon', but how was I to know that just by playing the DLC?

Because you're playing a dlc that is not canon. Not rocket science.

[Ianamus]

Mr.House wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...

In Exile wrote...
I think Xil made a pretty convincing case that this is false, insofar as even if grant that the "vast majority" of relationships end badly, of the set that "end well", all are heteresexual except Wade/Herren. 

Even if everyone is equal in the bad, in other words, they're not equal in the good, and that's the objection.

Also, thanks Xil for helping me understand this point!

I wouldn't count Wade and Herren either, personally, since at no point is it ever actually stated in-game that they are in a relationship. They're 'Dumbledore Gay', which for all practical purposes is the same as not being gay at all.

How in the hell are they Dumbledore gay?

There is nothing actually indicating they are even in a relationsip in-game. We only know because of word of gay. 

Modifié par EJ107, 14 septembre 2013 - 02:17 .

[Mr.House]

EJ107 wrote...

Mr.House wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...

In Exile wrote...
I think Xil made a pretty convincing case that this is false, insofar as even if grant that the "vast majority" of relationships end badly, of the set that "end well", all are heteresexual except Wade/Herren. 

Even if everyone is equal in the bad, in other words, they're not equal in the good, and that's the objection.

Also, thanks Xil for helping me understand this point!

I wouldn't count Wade and Herren either, personally, since at no point is it ever actually stated in-game that they are in a relationship. They're 'Dumbledore Gay', which for all practical purposes is the same as not being gay at all.

How in the hell are they Dumbledore gay?

There is nothing actually indicating they are even in a relationsip in-game. We only know because of word of gay. 

Uh no. It's very clear they where a couple in game.Gaider only had to confirm because some people where arguing they where not.

Modifié par Mr.House, 14 septembre 2013 - 02:20 .

[The Elder King]

Xilizhra wrote...

Thank you. I just find certain attitudes within this franchise and elsewhere incredibly frustrating and frequently want to lash out and give some a taste of my wrath. And I don't want to reserve judgment because I can at least say that I tried here if it goes wrong.

Understood. 

[Ianamus]

Mr.House wrote...

EJ107 wrote...

And that's not even getting into the DLC where it turns out one of them is actually desire demon. I know I read later that it was just an alternate reality and that it wasn't 'canon', but how was I to know that just by playing the DLC?

Because you're playing a dlc that is not canon. Not rocket science. 

I still think there is an issue with making it apparent that the one  positive homosexual relationsip in the series was actually a man being manipulated by a demon, even in a non-canon DLC. 

Mr.House wrote...

EJ107 wrote...

Mr.House wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...

I wouldn't count Wade and Herren either, personally, since at no point is it ever actually stated in-game that they are in a relationship. They're 'Dumbledore Gay', which for all practical purposes is the same as not being gay at all.

How in the hell are they Dumbledore gay?

There is nothing actually indicating they are even in a relationsip in-game. We only know because of word of gay. 

Uh no. It's very clear they where a couple in game. GAider only had to confirm because some peopel where arguning they where not.

It was? I had absolutely  no clue until I read it on the forums. And I normally pick up on any hint of homoerotocism in a heartbeat. 

The only thing I noticed was that wade was very camp. And for that matter I also found it problematic that the only way the gay couple was indicated was by campy behavior. 

Modifié par EJ107, 14 septembre 2013 - 02:27 .

[Zjarcal]

Xilizhra wrote...

... and frequently want to lash out and give some a taste of my wrath.

[Plaintiff]

Mr.House wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...

In Exile wrote...
I think Xil made a pretty convincing case that this is false, insofar as even if grant that the "vast majority" of relationships end badly, of the set that "end well", all are heteresexual except Wade/Herren. 

Even if everyone is equal in the bad, in other words, they're not equal in the good, and that's the objection.

Also, thanks Xil for helping me understand this point!

I wouldn't count Wade and Herren either, personally, since at no point is it ever actually stated in-game that they are in a relationship. They're 'Dumbledore Gay', which for all practical purposes is the same as not being gay at all.

How in the hell are they Dumbledore gay?

'Dumbledore Gay' is when a character is 'gay' in the writer's imagination, but is never explicitly shown to be so in the story, meaning it's not actually relevant. Declaring their homosexuality later, as Rowling did with Dumbledore, and Bioware did with Wade and Herren, is a cheap and lazy way to make your work appear inclusive/progressive without actually having to do any work, and without having to incur any of the controversy of legitimately including gay characters, because everybody already bought your product.

Without the meta-narrative information provided by Bioware, there's nothing at all to indicate that Wade and Herren are gay, unless you rely on offensive stereotypes to inform your opinion of homosexuality. They might as well be two flamboyant straight men, which I'd honestly prefer.

[Plaintiff]

Mr.House wrote...
Uh no. It's very clear they where a couple in game.Gaider only had to confirm because some people where arguing they where not.

It's only "clear" to people who see a flamboyant man and automatically assume he's gay.

I shouldn't have to explain why that's problematic.

[Rawgrim]

Plaintiff wrote...

Mr.House wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...

In Exile wrote...
I think Xil made a pretty convincing case that this is false, insofar as even if grant that the "vast majority" of relationships end badly, of the set that "end well", all are heteresexual except Wade/Herren. 

Even if everyone is equal in the bad, in other words, they're not equal in the good, and that's the objection.

Also, thanks Xil for helping me understand this point!

I wouldn't count Wade and Herren either, personally, since at no point is it ever actually stated in-game that they are in a relationship. They're 'Dumbledore Gay', which for all practical purposes is the same as not being gay at all.

How in the hell are they Dumbledore gay?

'Dumbledore Gay' is when a character is 'gay' in the writer's imagination, but is never explicitly shown to be so in the story, meaning it's not actually relevant. Declaring their homosexuality later, as Rowling did with Dumbledore, and Bioware did with Wade and Herren, is a cheap and lazy way to make your work appear inclusive/progressive without actually having to do any work, and without having to incur any of the controversy of legitimately including gay characters, because everybody already bought your product.

Without the meta-narrative information provided by Bioware, there's nothing at all to indicate that Wade and Herren are gay, unless you rely on offensive stereotypes to inform your opinion of homosexuality. They might as well be two flamboyant straight men, which I'd honestly prefer.

The devs have confirmed, a long time ago, that Wade and Herren are gay.

[Plaintiff]

Rawgrim wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...

Mr.House wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...

In Exile wrote...
I think Xil made a pretty convincing case that this is false, insofar as even if grant that the "vast majority" of relationships end badly, of the set that "end well", all are heteresexual except Wade/Herren. 

Even if everyone is equal in the bad, in other words, they're not equal in the good, and that's the objection.

Also, thanks Xil for helping me understand this point!

I wouldn't count Wade and Herren either, personally, since at no point is it ever actually stated in-game that they are in a relationship. They're 'Dumbledore Gay', which for all practical purposes is the same as not being gay at all.

How in the hell are they Dumbledore gay?

'Dumbledore Gay' is when a character is 'gay' in the writer's imagination, but is never explicitly shown to be so in the story, meaning it's not actually relevant. Declaring their homosexuality later, as Rowling did with Dumbledore, and Bioware did with Wade and Herren, is a cheap and lazy way to make your work appear inclusive/progressive without actually having to do any work, and without having to incur any of the controversy of legitimately including gay characters, because everybody already bought your product.

Without the meta-narrative information provided by Bioware, there's nothing at all to indicate that Wade and Herren are gay, unless you rely on offensive stereotypes to inform your opinion of homosexuality. They might as well be two flamboyant straight men, which I'd honestly prefer.

The devs have confirmed, a long time ago, that Wade and Herren are gay.

Jesus Christ, try actually reading my posts.

It should've been 'confirmed' in the game.

[Maria Caliban]

AresKeith wrote...

I like how the thread got derailed by Xil

Xil is something of a force of nature when it comes to threads.

[Rawgrim]

Plaintiff wrote...

Rawgrim wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...

Mr.House wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...

In Exile wrote...
I think Xil made a pretty convincing case that this is false, insofar as even if grant that the "vast majority" of relationships end badly, of the set that "end well", all are heteresexual except Wade/Herren. 

Even if everyone is equal in the bad, in other words, they're not equal in the good, and that's the objection.

Also, thanks Xil for helping me understand this point!

I wouldn't count Wade and Herren either, personally, since at no point is it ever actually stated in-game that they are in a relationship. They're 'Dumbledore Gay', which for all practical purposes is the same as not being gay at all.

How in the hell are they Dumbledore gay?

'Dumbledore Gay' is when a character is 'gay' in the writer's imagination, but is never explicitly shown to be so in the story, meaning it's not actually relevant. Declaring their homosexuality later, as Rowling did with Dumbledore, and Bioware did with Wade and Herren, is a cheap and lazy way to make your work appear inclusive/progressive without actually having to do any work, and without having to incur any of the controversy of legitimately including gay characters, because everybody already bought your product.

Without the meta-narrative information provided by Bioware, there's nothing at all to indicate that Wade and Herren are gay, unless you rely on offensive stereotypes to inform your opinion of homosexuality. They might as well be two flamboyant straight men, which I'd honestly prefer.

The devs have confirmed, a long time ago, that Wade and Herren are gay.

Jesus Christ, try actually reading my posts.

It should've been 'confirmed' in the game.

Sorry Was on the phone while I was replying. Blame multitasking.

[AresKeith]

Maria Caliban wrote...

AresKeith wrote...

I like how the thread got derailed by Xil

Xil is something of a force of nature when it comes to threads.

So I see from my time on here lol

[Plaintiff]

EntropicAngel wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...

'Dumbledore Gay' is when a character is 'gay' in the writer's imagination, but is never explicitly shown to be so in the story, meaning it's not actually relevant. Declaring their homosexuality later, as Rowling did with Dumbledore, and Bioware did with Wade and Herren, is a cheap and lazy way to make your work appear inclusive/progressive without actually having to do any work, and without having to incur any of the controversy of legitimately including gay characters, because everybody already bought your product.

Without the meta-narrative information provided by Bioware, there's nothing at all to indicate that Wade and Herren are gay, unless you rely on offensive stereotypes to inform your opinion of homosexuality. They might as well be two flamboyant straight men, which I'd honestly prefer.

Whether you consider a stereotype "offensive" or not has no bearing on if it holds water.

Did I say it does?

Stereotypes, offensive or otherwise, never, ever 'hold water', because the nature of a stereotype is that it's inherently false.

[Rawgrim]

There is a stereotypical gay couple working as bartenders near where I live. They behave alot like Wade and Herren, actually. Teriffic bartenders, though.

[Hellion Rex]

Maria Caliban wrote...

AresKeith wrote...

I like how the thread got derailed by Xil

Xil is something of a force of nature when it comes to threads.

^This. Although, I don't think that's a bad thing. He (or she) is just passionate about what they believe in. I can respect that.

Modifié par eluvianix, 14 septembre 2013 - 02:41 .

[Hellion Rex]

Filament wrote...

Maria Caliban wrote...

AresKeith wrote...

I like how the thread got derailed by Xil

Xil is something of a force of nature when it comes to threads.

I thought that was David.

Heaven forbid if they should ever disagree.

The Veil shall tear, and the demons will run amok!

[Plaintiff]

EntropicAngel wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...

Jesus Christ, try actually reading my posts.

It should've been 'confirmed' in the game.

...are you always this angry, Plaintiff? Or is it just when you're here? The profanity is unnecessary.

Since you don't ask this question every single time I post, the answer ought to be obvious. I've told you before that I use profanity as a matter of course, it's not an indicator of my mood.

I get "angry" (according to your definition of the term, not mine), when people respond to me in a manner that makes it clear that they didn't actually read my posts. Or when they deliberately sidetrack the argument with personal attacks, or when they try to delegitimise my point by criticising my choice of words, like you're doing right now.

[Rawgrim]

Seriously. I took no offence from Plaintiff`s post. It was pretty much my fault for posting while being on the phone. No harm done.