392 réponses à ce sujet

[Amberion]

David7204 wrote...

Amberion wrote...

Bioshock Infinite is a totally linear experience. There are no branching pathways or choices you can make that affect the story.

Right, so does that linear experience include the player character doing evil things?

Also, I watched the trailer and seem to remember a few times where the player can choose to take an action or not. Shoot a dying horse or let the girl try and heal it. Stuff like that. That's not in the final game?

There's no dying horse. There is a part early in the game where you can choose to throw a baseball at a mixed race couple or throw the baseball at the announcer, but it ends up not mattering.

The vast majority of the gameplay is brutal FPS style combat with spells(vigors) and guns. Oh, and hunting in out of the way corners for loot.

[David7204]

That sounds to me like a pretty damn big lie from the developers. Putting entire gameplay concepts in trailers that are completely absent in the game?

Modifié par David7204, 14 septembre 2013 - 11:25 .

[Zu Long]

David7204 wrote...

Amberion wrote...

Bioshock Infinite is a totally linear experience. There are no branching pathways or choices you can make that affect the story.

Right, so does that linear experience include the player character doing evil things?

Also, I watched the trailer and seem to remember a few times where the player can choose to take an action or not. Shoot a dying horse or let the girl try and heal it. Stuff like that. That's not in the final game?

There are a couple that I recall. One at the beginning allows you to choose whether or not to begin pelting an interracial couple on stage with baseballs, or to throw the baseball at the man who handed it to you. The couple later shows up to thank you, but otherwise the choice has little effect on the narrative.

As far as do you do evil things, I think that depends on your definition of evil. The most frustrating moment for me was when, after finally obtaining the airship and having the ability to leave the city, Booker betrays Elizabeth's trust and lies to her about where he's going to fly the airship, for reasons I found absurd. This results in her knocking him out, which leads to the two of them being stuck back in the city again, trying to get back to the airship. It felt pretty contrived, IMO, and definitely falls short of my own moral compass.

[SlottsMachine]

David7204 wrote...

That sounds to me like a pretty damn big lie from the developers. Putting entire gameplay concepts in trailers that are completely absent in the game?

LOL. You have a link to this trailer, or are you just talking out your ass again?

Either way. Nobody cares all that much about Infinite. 

[Amberion]

Basically the entire situation in Columbia is f'd up beyond all repair. The arrival of booker just knocked the top off the pot.

[In Exile]

Zu Long wrote...
As far as do you do evil things, I think that depends on your definition of evil. The most frustrating moment for me was when, after finally obtaining the airship and having the ability to leave the city, Booker betrays Elizabeth's trust and lies to her about where he's going to fly the airship, for reasons I found absurd. This results in her knocking him out, which leads to the two of them being stuck back in the city again, trying to get back to the airship. It felt pretty contrived, IMO, and definitely falls short of my own moral compass.

Yeah, by that point I was just hoping the ending was Elizabeth shooting Booker in the skull, who I was convinced was a villain protagonist. I was right, but nowhere near how I imagined I'd be. 

[Amberion]

Zu Long wrote...

David7204 wrote...

Amberion wrote...

Bioshock Infinite is a totally linear experience. There are no branching pathways or choices you can make that affect the story.

Right, so does that linear experience include the player character doing evil things?

Also, I watched the trailer and seem to remember a few times where the player can choose to take an action or not. Shoot a dying horse or let the girl try and heal it. Stuff like that. That's not in the final game?

There are a couple that I recall. One at the beginning allows you to choose whether or not to begin pelting an interracial couple on stage with baseballs, or to throw the baseball at the man who handed it to you. The couple later shows up to thank you, but otherwise the choice has little effect on the narrative.

As far as do you do evil things, I think that depends on your definition of evil. The most frustrating moment for me was when, after finally obtaining the airship and having the ability to leave the city, Booker betrays Elizabeth's trust and lies to her about where he's going to fly the airship, for reasons I found absurd. This results in her knocking him out, which leads to the two of them being stuck back in the city again, trying to get back to the airship. It felt pretty contrived, IMO, and definitely falls short of my own moral compass.

It wasn't contrived at all. This is what Booker wanted to do. We as the players are only along for the ride in this story. We don't get to make moral decisions on behalf of our character because it's not 'our' character at all, it's Booker DeWitt, the guy who's been told to get Elizabeth to this guy in New York so he can lose this debt he owes. That's why he lied to Elizabeth, who wanted to go to Paris. He doesn't care about Elizabeth, he's only agreeing to whatever she says in order to get her to come with him.

[AresKeith]

David7204 wrote...

That sounds to me like a pretty damn big lie from the developers. Putting entire gameplay concepts in trailers that are completely absent in the game?

Except that it isn't actually a lie since anything can happen from a game demo to the actual game coming out

And the game also got a complete makeover after the demo too

Modifié par AresKeith, 14 septembre 2013 - 11:40 .

[David7204]

I count not one, but three choices being presented in 15 minutes.

At 4:10, you can see the player being given the choice to execute the horse or not.

At 7:25, you see the player being given the choice of a branching path. Go one way to find more supplies or head straight to the objective.

At 8:10, you can see the player being given the choice to try and stop the mob or not.

Three choices in a 15 minute preview? Yeah, that's a huge discrepancy.

Modifié par David7204, 14 septembre 2013 - 11:45 .

[Amberion]

Well, like AresKeith said, a lot can change from initial trailers to final build. Heck, remember the starcraft screenshots from the early alpha builds?

http://en.wikipedia....uild_(StarCraft).png

Funny story, they totally redid the game when they realised how awful their game looked compared to another RTS game that was in development(but the joke was, the other RTS was vaporware and the screenshots were faked. that game was never made.)

[Zu Long]

In Exile wrote...

Zu Long wrote...
As far as do you do evil things, I think that depends on your definition of evil. The most frustrating moment for me was when, after finally obtaining the airship and having the ability to leave the city, Booker betrays Elizabeth's trust and lies to her about where he's going to fly the airship, for reasons I found absurd. This results in her knocking him out, which leads to the two of them being stuck back in the city again, trying to get back to the airship. It felt pretty contrived, IMO, and definitely falls short of my own moral compass.

Yeah, by that point I was just hoping the ending was Elizabeth shooting Booker in the skull, who I was convinced was a villain protagonist. I was right, but nowhere near how I imagined I'd be. 

See, I had thought that the scenes where you could choose to show a moral compass, like being so incensed by racism that he gives up his cover for one good shot at the guy on stage meant that you could eventually determine what kind of person Booker was. You make other choices, like the one between the Bird and the Cage that seemed to hint at some kind of larger purpose to the choices, but that never happened.

I finally threw my hands up when the leader of the Vox Populi decided to attack Booker immediately after he had just finished helping them take over the city. Sure her version of Booker had died earlier, but this guy who looked exactly like Booker had just helped her take over part of the city. He had proven to be 1. a one man army, and 2. on her side to that point. So maybe take him aside and ask what's going on, but straight up ordering him executed made no sense.

[Navasha]

Amberion wrote...

[A lack of a hook is not necessarily a critical flaw. In terms of hooking the player into the game, I would say the device that sends you to Columbia is a pretty good initial hook that makes the player go 'whoa!'. This isn't character linked, but scene linked.

As for 'desire,' well, this game felt to me like a throwback to an earlier age of FPS games, where the player's desire to play is assumed to be self-motivated. It's a game; we play it because we want to play it. The character motivations and story come a bit later. If you as a player need motivation to play a game, you've got bigger problems I don't know what to do with.

This thread isn't about my personal motivation to play a game.   Its about what is good storytelling in a game.  

My opinion is that BI is poor storytelling because the viewer/player doesn't end up caring too much what happens to Booker.

If you played Mass Effect, remember that moment at the very end when the Reaper explodes and a large piece appears to crush Shepard.   Most of us waited in anticipation of what happened because over the course of the story we grew attached to our character we followed.    When Shepard climbs out of the rubble and is okay, we breathed a sigh of relief.    That is good storytelling because we as the observer were brought into the story.

In BI, at the end of the game, the character I was following and living out their story was erased from existence.. dead...  and I didn't care at all.    The point being that if you can't get your reader to buy-in to your story.... then you didn't tell the story well. 

[Zu Long]

Amberion wrote...

Zu Long wrote...

David7204 wrote...

Amberion wrote...

Bioshock Infinite is a totally linear experience. There are no branching pathways or choices you can make that affect the story.

Right, so does that linear experience include the player character doing evil things?

Also, I watched the trailer and seem to remember a few times where the player can choose to take an action or not. Shoot a dying horse or let the girl try and heal it. Stuff like that. That's not in the final game?

There are a couple that I recall. One at the beginning allows you to choose whether or not to begin pelting an interracial couple on stage with baseballs, or to throw the baseball at the man who handed it to you. The couple later shows up to thank you, but otherwise the choice has little effect on the narrative.

As far as do you do evil things, I think that depends on your definition of evil. The most frustrating moment for me was when, after finally obtaining the airship and having the ability to leave the city, Booker betrays Elizabeth's trust and lies to her about where he's going to fly the airship, for reasons I found absurd. This results in her knocking him out, which leads to the two of them being stuck back in the city again, trying to get back to the airship. It felt pretty contrived, IMO, and definitely falls short of my own moral compass.

It wasn't contrived at all. This is what Booker wanted to do. We as the players are only along for the ride in this story. We don't get to make moral decisions on behalf of our character because it's not 'our' character at all, it's Booker DeWitt, the guy who's been told to get Elizabeth to this guy in New York so he can lose this debt he owes. That's why he lied to Elizabeth, who wanted to go to Paris. He doesn't care about Elizabeth, he's only agreeing to whatever she says in order to get her to come with him.

Yet, as I pointed out, we are allowed to make choices which theoretically would impact what kind of person he is. They don't end up affecting anything of course, but it seems odd that it even allows us to make those choices in the first place if they carry no meaning.

In anycase, I said it felt contrived because it did. His justification didn't pass muster to me with the other character traits he had shown thus far and his interaction with Elizabeth up to that point.

[VampireSoap]

Navasha wrote...

This thread isn't about my personal motivation to play a game.   Its about what is good storytelling in a game.  

My opinion is that BI is poor storytelling because the viewer/player doesn't end up caring too much what happens to Booker.

If you played Mass Effect, remember that moment at the very end when the Reaper explodes and a large piece appears to crush Shepard.   Most of us waited in anticipation of what happened because over the course of the story we grew attached to our character we followed.    When Shepard climbs out of the rubble and is okay, we breathed a sigh of relief.    That is good storytelling because we as the observer were brought into the story.

In BI, at the end of the game, the character I was following and living out their story was erased from existence.. dead...  and I didn't care at all.    The point being that if you can't get your reader to buy-in to your story.... then you didn't tell the story well. 

Ahem...I was going to comment on this, but I'm not sure if you knew there's an extra scene AFTER the credit's rolled.  This video, 15:24. I just wanna make sure I didn't spoil anything for you before I began jumping into the discussion :happy:

Modifié par VampireSoap, 15 septembre 2013 - 12:04 .

[AresKeith]

Zu Long wrote...

Yet, as I pointed out, we are allowed to make choices which theoretically would impact what kind of person he is. They don't end up affecting anything of course, but it seems odd that it even allows us to make those choices in the first place if they carry no meaning.

In anycase, I said it felt contrived because it did. His justification didn't pass muster to me with the other character traits he had shown thus far and his interaction with Elizabeth up to that point.

Booker never intended to take Elizabeth to Paris up to that point, he tells her what she wanted to hear

[The Hierophant]

OT but did anyone else regret not putting Slate out of his misery the first time?

[AresKeith]

The Hierophant wrote...

OT but did anyone else regret not putting Slate out of his misery the first time?

Yes

[David7204]

It's not really about playing agency. It's about 'evil' protagonists in general. There's a reason why you really don't see evil main characters in any fiction. Not just video games.

Modifié par David7204, 15 septembre 2013 - 12:09 .

[Zu Long]

AresKeith wrote...

Zu Long wrote...

Yet, as I pointed out, we are allowed to make choices which theoretically would impact what kind of person he is. They don't end up affecting anything of course, but it seems odd that it even allows us to make those choices in the first place if they carry no meaning.

In anycase, I said it felt contrived because it did. His justification didn't pass muster to me with the other character traits he had shown thus far and his interaction with Elizabeth up to that point.

Booker never intended to take Elizabeth to Paris up to that point, he tells her what she wanted to hear

And his reasons for making that decision are stupid and contrived, at least to me.

[Giantdeathrobot]

Ehh, I don't want Infinite to be used as an inspiration/example for a Bioware story, especially in the ''mindcrew twist ending', department.

*Looks at ME3* aw shucks, too late...

More seriously, I don't consider that game a great standard. It's good an above-average plot with interesting concepts, but they fail to all tie together (IE the Vox Populi/Founders conflict having very little to do with the whole magical quantum mechanics shenanigans, becoming little more than generic enemies to shoot, or Booker being the only one to use Vigors save for a handful of enemies). While, for example, Bioshock's splicers tied very neatly together into the plot and setting, just like the usable plasmids and whatnot. Both games have dissapointing endings, but at least Infinite's didn't depend on a silly ''moral choice''.

On the plot front, it's true that Bioware hasn't impressed. Like, ever. Their only great plot IMO is Jade Empire. The rest is good (KOTOR, ME1, BG1), decent/mediocre (BG2, ME3, DA1) or just plain bad (ME2, DA2). They could learn several things from Obsidian or CD Projeckt RED. Mask of the Betrayer, Planescape: Torment, KOTOR 2 and Witcher 2 are examples of what I consider great plots. So far, Inquisition's plot doesn't seem especially original (a rehash of Origins with demons instead of Darkspawn?), but admitedly we haven't seen everything yet. It might be they will surprise us, but I don't expect an amazing main plot.

Their strength has always, always been in characters. They beat pretty much everybody in the business on that front, and I doubt this is going to change anytime soon. You CAN have great characters and a great main plot, but IMO Obsidian/Black Isle are the only ones to have ever managed that, and even then only in a handful of games.

[AresKeith]

David7204 wrote...

It's not really about playing agency. It's about 'evil' protagonists in general. There's a reason why you really don't see evil main characters in any fiction. Not just video games.

No, but there are anti-heros

[The Hierophant]

AresKeith wrote...

The Hierophant wrote...

OT but did anyone else regret not putting Slate out of his misery the first time?

Yes

Despite the amount of people he potentially killed he didn't deserve that, that was just effed up.

*edit*

Modifié par The Hierophant, 15 septembre 2013 - 12:14 .

[Amberion]

The KoTOR dark side ending is quite evil. I thought that was brilliantly done.

[David7204]

An anti-hero, by definition, does good deeds.