392 réponses à ce sujet

[AresKeith]

Zu Long wrote...

AresKeith wrote...

Zu Long wrote...

Yet, as I pointed out, we are allowed to make choices which theoretically would impact what kind of person he is. They don't end up affecting anything of course, but it seems odd that it even allows us to make those choices in the first place if they carry no meaning.

In anycase, I said it felt contrived because it did. His justification didn't pass muster to me with the other character traits he had shown thus far and his interaction with Elizabeth up to that point.

Booker never intended to take Elizabeth to Paris up to that point, he tells her what she wanted to hear

And his reasons for making that decision are stupid and contrived, at least to me.

It's ok for not liking it, but you still need to remember that Booker isn't YOUR character, he's a pre-defined character

[David7204]

AresKeith wrote...

It's ok for not liking it, but you still need to remember that Booker isn't YOUR character, he's a pre-defined character.

And as I said, that isn't the issue. Being predefined doesn't make it okay for characters to be contrived or unlikeable.

Modifié par David7204, 15 septembre 2013 - 12:17 .

[MassivelyEffective0730]

David7204 wrote...

An anti-hero, by definition, does good deeds.

Everyone does 'good' deeds. What's your argument?

[Zu Long]

AresKeith wrote...

Zu Long wrote...

AresKeith wrote...

Zu Long wrote...

Yet, as I pointed out, we are allowed to make choices which theoretically would impact what kind of person he is. They don't end up affecting anything of course, but it seems odd that it even allows us to make those choices in the first place if they carry no meaning.

In anycase, I said it felt contrived because it did. His justification didn't pass muster to me with the other character traits he had shown thus far and his interaction with Elizabeth up to that point.

Booker never intended to take Elizabeth to Paris up to that point, he tells her what she wanted to hear

And his reasons for making that decision are stupid and contrived, at least to me.

It's ok for not liking it, but you still need to remember that Booker isn't YOUR character, he's a pre-defined character

And there are many characters written well enough that even though I disagree with their actions, I can at least admit that their motivations make sense. This is not the case here.

[AresKeith]

David7204 wrote...

AresKeith wrote...

It's ok for not liking it, but you still need to remember that Booker isn't YOUR character, he's a pre-defined character.

And as I said, that isn't the issue. Being predefined doesn't make it okay for characters to be contrived or unlikeable.

And I'm pretty sure I wasn't replying to you

[MassivelyEffective0730]

Amberion wrote...

The KoTOR dark side ending is quite evil. I thought that was brilliantly done.

Grand Theft Auto is quite 'evil': You can run around and kill thousands of innocent people and police officers. Hell, what you can do in the game pretty much constitutes terrorism and mass murder. And military action against the United States.

I think it's pretty fun.

Modifié par MassivelyEffective0730, 15 septembre 2013 - 12:22 .

[Maria Caliban]

Fast Jimmy wrote...

The themes of patriotism, fundamentalism and racism are, quite simply, cheap veneers to allow the player to kill all the neccessary enemies, qualm free.

And Hamlet not being sure if murdering his uncle his right is just a cheap veneer to allow the writer to draw out the tension instead of ending the story in the second act.

Or maybe an element can both provide a practical benefit to the story while simultaneously adding thematic depth. Some crazy people might even think that if you're going to have themes in a story, they ought to serve a practical purpose otherwise you're just wasting the reader's/player's time.

[David7204]

At the end of the day, there's going to be something in combat games that allows you to kill the necessary enemies, qualm free.

Modifié par David7204, 15 septembre 2013 - 12:22 .

[AresKeith]

Zu Long wrote...

And there are many characters written well enough that even though I disagree with their actions, I can at least admit that their motivations make sense. This is not the case here.

Brooker has a supposed debt, and for that debt to wiped clear he has to go to Columbia to find the girl and bring her back to New York

The girl doesn't agree to go with her unless he takes her to Paris, Brooker lies to her about agreeing to take her Paris

[MassivelyEffective0730]

David7204 wrote...

At the end of the day, there's going to be something in combat games that allows you to kill the necessary enemies, qualm free.

All deaths are qualm free if you don't let them bother you. 

[SlottsMachine]

AresKeith wrote...

Zu Long wrote...

And there are many characters written well enough that even though I disagree with their actions, I can at least admit that their motivations make sense. This is not the case here.

Brooker has a supposed debt, and for that debt to wiped clear he has to go to Columbia to find the girl and bring her back to New York

The girl doesn't agree to go with her unless he takes her to Paris, Brooker lies to her about agreeing to take her Paris

^

[David7204]

As I said Ares, being predefined doesn't excuse characters from making selfish and unlikeable decisions that damage the player's investment in the narrative.

Modifié par David7204, 15 septembre 2013 - 12:24 .

[Navasha]

VampireSoap wrote...


Ahem...I was going to comment on this, but I'm not sure if you knew there's an extra scene AFTER the credit's rolled.  This video, 15:24. I just wanna make sure I didn't spoil anything for you before I began jumping into the discussion :happy:

Actually thanks for that..  No I didn't know there was anything after the credits rolled, because quite honestly I didn't care that the protagonist died.   I just shut the game down at that point. 

[SlottsMachine]

Maria Caliban wrote...

Some crazy people might even think that if you're going to have themes in a story, they ought to serve a practical purpose otherwise you're just wasting the reader's/player's time.

*is a crazy person*

[AresKeith]

David7204 wrote...

As I said Ares, being predefined doesn't excuse characters from making selfish and unlikeable decisions that damage the player's investment in the narrative.

Well that's the players fault for assuming that every video game has to have the main character be a "good guy" and "heroic" and not make selfish decisions

The Last of Us does the same thing and it's still a great game

[MassivelyEffective0730]

Open question: What's an evil act in a video game?

[Maria Caliban]

Navasha wrote...

The protagonist was neither likeable nor sympathetic in any way. In fact, I can't even think of a single character in the entire game that had a single decent quality.

Elizabeth was supposed to be the likable and sympathetic character. As Booker learns to care about her, he stops being the empty shell of a man he's turned himself into.

As for Elizabeth's decent qualities: She's kind, curious, and has a love of life.

David7204 wrote...

Does Infinite 'force' you to do evil things as a player?

No. Though you do supply weapons to a revolutionary group that goes horribly wrong.

[AresKeith]

Maria Caliban wrote...

David7204 wrote...

Does Infinite 'force' you to do evil things as a player?

No. Though you do supply weapons to a revolutionary group that goes horribly wrong.

I thought it was funny

And Elizabeth is easily the best character in the game

[Xilizhra]

MassivelyEffective0730 wrote...

Open question: What's an evil act in a video game?

The best solution is a case-by-case assessment. Causing unnecessary harm, though, is definitely on the list.

[MassivelyEffective0730]

AresKeith wrote...

David7204 wrote...

As I said Ares, being predefined doesn't excuse characters from making selfish and unlikeable decisions that damage the player's investment in the narrative.

Well that's the players fault for assuming that every video game has to have the main character be a "good guy" and "heroic" and not make selfish decisions

The Last of Us does the same thing and it's still a great game

Indeed. I hated the action at the end where you choose not to sacrifice Ellie, but it's a decision that I look at from Joel's perspective and understand, even if I don't ultimately like or agree with it. It's definitely something that Joel would do.

[MassivelyEffective0730]

Xilizhra wrote...

MassivelyEffective0730 wrote...

Open question: What's an evil act in a video game?

The best solution is a case-by-case assessment. Causing unnecessary harm, though, is definitely on the list.

Define unnecessary harm. 

[jontepwn]

David7204 wrote...

As I said Ares, being predefined doesn't excuse characters from making selfish and unlikeable decisions that damage the player's investment in the narrative.

In a strictly linear game such as Bioshock Infinite that's not something that's detrimental to the game, it's just your personal preference. Unless you had the preconcieved notion that you could change the story before playing it.

[AresKeith]

Xilizhra wrote...

MassivelyEffective0730 wrote...

Open question: What's an evil act in a video game?

The best solution is a case-by-case assessment. Causing unnecessary harm, though, is definitely on the list.

GTA