392 réponses à ce sujet

[Herr Uhl]

AresKeith wrote...

And Elizabeth is easily the best character in the game

She is the only character that gets development.

[David7204]

AresKeith wrote...

David7204 wrote...

As I said Ares, being predefined doesn't excuse characters from making selfish and unlikeable decisions that damage the player's investment in the narrative.

Well that's the players fault for assuming that every video game has to have the main character be a "good guy" and "heroic" and not make selfish decisions

The Last of Us does the same thing and it's still a great game

Wrong.

Stories don't avoid evil protagonists because the audience expects a good protagonists. They avoid evil protagonists because evil protagonists don't generate meaningful conflict. Audiences don't care what happen to them.

The eight worst words a storytelling can hear. "I don't care what happens to these people."

And look at that. It apparently worked. Nobody here seems to care at all that Booker died.

[MassivelyEffective0730]

AresKeith wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

MassivelyEffective0730 wrote...

Open question: What's an evil act in a video game?

The best solution is a case-by-case assessment. Causing unnecessary harm, though, is definitely on the list.

GTA 

So many people will be dead. For the lulz.

[Maria Caliban]

MassivelyEffective0730 wrote...

Open question: What's an evil act in a video game?

It depends on the story and setting.

Batman breaking a man's spine in a fight is not evil. His world is one where people are ruthless, crime is rampant, and the prevailing mentality is kill-or-be-killed. That he refuses to kill means he's taking the moral path even if a specific fight has him breaking someone's spine.

Superman breaking a man's spine in a fight is evil.

[Plaintiff]

Well if you're going to lose investment in a narrative every time a character is selfish, then pretty much the only narrative that you'll ever like is straight 'save the world' fare, with characters that have no desires or personalities beyond the achievement of that one goal.

Sounds terribly boring.

[KainD]

OP should go and watch Smudboy's review of Bioshock's story. =)

[Zu Long]

AresKeith wrote...

Zu Long wrote...

And there are many characters written well enough that even though I disagree with their actions, I can at least admit that their motivations make sense. This is not the case here.

Brooker has a supposed debt, and for that debt to wiped clear he has to go to Columbia to find the girl and bring her back to New York

The girl doesn't agree to go with her unless he takes her to Paris, Brooker lies to her about agreeing to take her Paris

And the people who control this debt will be able to reach him in Paris, because... wait, no, they won't. There is literally nothing tieing him to the outside world, once he has control of the blimp. Hell, I'd think the blimp would sell for quite a bit of money which would wipe out any debt, with plenty left over besides. In addition, at no point does he attempt to explain his situation to Elizabeth prior to her figuring out he lied to her.

There's more besides this. I could probably write an essay about it, but I'm not going to. It did not make sense to me, and felt contrived. If you disagree, so be it.

[David7204]

jontepwn wrote...

In a strictly linear game such as Bioshock Infinite that's not something that's detrimental to the game, it's just your personal preference. Unless you had the preconcieved notion that you could change the story before playing it.

That's just not true. Forget that Bioshock is video game for a moment. It's not about linear vs. nonlinear. It's about good stories vs. bad. You almost never have evil protagonists in any fiction. Video game or non video game.

Evil protagonists are not generally bad in video games. They're bad in fiction altogether.

Modifié par David7204, 15 septembre 2013 - 12:33 .

[Xilizhra]

AresKeith wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

MassivelyEffective0730 wrote...

Open question: What's an evil act in a video game?

The best solution is a case-by-case assessment. Causing unnecessary harm, though, is definitely on the list.

GTA 

Is not a game that I play.

That's just not true. Forget that Bioshock is video game for a moment.
It's not about linear vs. nonlinear. It's about good stories vs. bad.
You almost never have evil protagonists in any fiction. Video game or non video game.

I've seen it happen a few times. For example, many Imperials in TOR.

Modifié par Xilizhra, 15 septembre 2013 - 12:34 .

[Maria Caliban]

General Slotts wrote...

Maria Caliban wrote...

Some crazy people might even think that if you're going to have themes in a story, they ought to serve a practical purpose otherwise you're just wasting the reader's/player's time.

*is a crazy person*

*may also suffer from unspecified narrative mental illness*

[MassivelyEffective0730]

David7204 wrote...

AresKeith wrote...

David7204 wrote...

As I said Ares, being predefined doesn't excuse characters from making selfish and unlikeable decisions that damage the player's investment in the narrative.

Well that's the players fault for assuming that every video game has to have the main character be a "good guy" and "heroic" and not make selfish decisions

The Last of Us does the same thing and it's still a great game

Wrong.

Stories don't avoid evil protagonists because the audience expects a good protagonists. They avoid evil protagonists because evil protagonists don't generate meaningful conflict. Audiences don't care what happen to them.

You ever watch Dexter?

The eight worst words a storytelling can hear. "I don't care what happens to these people."

And look at that. It apparently worked. Nobody here seems to care at all that Booker died.

If you played the game, you'd know that you're wrong here.

Do you actually ever play a game before judging it?

You're like one of those nutball fundamentalists that damn Harry Potter books without ever reading one.

[AresKeith]

Maria Caliban wrote...

MassivelyEffective0730 wrote...

Open question: What's an evil act in a video game?

It depends on the story and setting.

Batman breaking a man's spine in a fight is not evil. His world is one where people are ruthless, crime is rampant, and the prevailing mentality is kill-or-be-killed. That he refuses to kill means he's taking the moral path even if a specific fight has him breaking someone's spine.

Superman breaking a man's spine in a fight is evil.

That's why Batman > Superman

[Plaintiff]

David7204 wrote...

AresKeith wrote...

David7204 wrote...

As I said Ares, being predefined doesn't excuse characters from making selfish and unlikeable decisions that damage the player's investment in the narrative.

Well that's the players fault for assuming that every video game has to have the main character be a "good guy" and "heroic" and not make selfish decisions

The Last of Us does the same thing and it's still a great game

Wrong.

Stories don't avoid evil protagonists because the audience expects a good protagonists. They avoid evil protagonists because evil protagonists don't generate meaningful conflict. Audiences don't care what happen to them.

The eight worst words a storytelling can hear. "I don't care what happens to these people."

And look at that. It apparently worked. Nobody here seems to care at all that Booker died.

I care. The ending made me sad. I don't think Booker was 'evil' or 'unlikeable', even though his character is revealed to have done terrible things.

Modifié par Plaintiff, 15 septembre 2013 - 12:36 .

[MassivelyEffective0730]

David7204 wrote...

jontepwn wrote...

In a strictly linear game such as Bioshock Infinite that's not something that's detrimental to the game, it's just your personal preference. Unless you had the preconcieved notion that you could change the story before playing it.

That's just not true. Forget that Bioshock is video game for a moment. It's not about linear vs. nonlinear. It's about good stories vs. bad. You almost never have evil protagonists in any fiction. Video game or non video game.

Evil protagonists are not generally bad in video games. They're bad in fiction altogether.

And here you go calling Bioshock a bad story where the overwhelming masses completely disagree with you. But you know best right?

Usually because they're uninteresting. Being evil for the lulz (unless you're the Joker) is kind of lame. What's the point?

Give them a motivation. That's when things get interesting.

Ever play the Old Republic? Sith Assassin for the win!

Modifié par MassivelyEffective0730, 15 septembre 2013 - 12:37 .

[AresKeith]

@Massively David never played the game

[David7204]

The point is, you can't put evil and unlikeable characters in linear games and say 'Oh, it's okay since it's a linear game. It's okay since the player doesn't get to choose.'

No, it's not okay. It's not okay in other fiction, and it's not okay in linear video games.

[MassivelyEffective0730]

David7204 wrote...

The point is, you can't put evil and unlikeable characters in linear games and say 'Oh, it's okay since it's a linear game. It's okay since the player doesn't get to choose.'

No, it's not okay. It's not okay in other fiction, and it's not okay in linear video games.

Why is it not ok? Define an evil and unlikeable character.

Modifié par MassivelyEffective0730, 15 septembre 2013 - 12:38 .

[Zu Long]

Plaintiff wrote...

Well if you're going to lose investment in a narrative every time a character is selfish, then pretty much the only narrative that you'll ever like is straight 'save the world' fare, with characters that have no desires or personalities beyond the achievement of that one goal.

Sounds terribly boring.

It depends on the situation. I enjoyed the hell out of Saints Row 4 in spite of the fact that the Boss is objectively a terrible person.

[AresKeith]

David7204 wrote...

The point is, you can't put evil and unlikeable characters in linear games and say 'Oh, it's okay since it's a linear game. It's okay since the player doesn't get to choose.'

No, it's not okay. It's not okay in other fiction, and it's not okay in linear video games.

Cole from Infamous can be evil and well likeable

KOTOR can have evil characters and likeable

[Xilizhra]

David7204 wrote...

The point is, you can't put evil and unlikeable characters in linear games and say 'Oh, it's okay since it's a linear game. It's okay since the player doesn't get to choose.'

No, it's not okay. It's not okay in other fiction, and it's not okay in linear video games.

Hmmm. What if they're in a conflict against those who tend to be as bad as they are, and while they may serve an evil master, will do good when possible?

[David7204]

Meaningful conflict is the soul of drama.

There's no drama and no story in watching two people you don't care about in conflict. And why should audiences care about evil and unlikeable characters? They shouldn't, and they don't. Thus you almost never have 'evil' protagonists in fiction. Because audiences rightfully don't care what happens to such people.

Modifié par David7204, 15 septembre 2013 - 12:41 .

[jontepwn]

David7204 wrote...

The point is, you can't put evil and unlikeable characters in linear games and say 'Oh, it's okay since it's a linear game. It's okay since the player doesn't get to choose.'

No, it's not okay. It's not okay in other fiction, and it's not okay in linear video games.

So the game is bad because the protagonist does bad things? 

Narrow-minded much?

[Xilizhra]

David7204 wrote...

Meaningful conflict is the soul of drama.

There's no drama and no story in watching two people you don't care about in conflict. And why should audiences care about evil and unlikeable characters? They shouldn't, and they don't. Thus you almost never have 'evil' protagonists in fiction. Because audiences rightfully don't care what happens to such people.

How would evil characters be likeable?

[Herr Uhl]

AresKeith wrote...

David7204 wrote...

The point is, you can't put evil and unlikeable characters in linear games and say 'Oh, it's okay since it's a linear game. It's okay since the player doesn't get to choose.'

No, it's not okay. It's not okay in other fiction, and it's not okay in linear video games.

Cole from Infamous can be evil and well likeable

KOTOR can have evil characters and likeable

You get the choice in those games. Booker does what he wants. I'm not saying that you can't have an unlikeable protagonist, but Kotor and Infamous are bad examples.