392 réponses à ce sujet

[David7204]

'Everything is subjective' is not an argument I give the slightest bit of merit to. There's no point in discussing anything concerning fiction if 'Everything is subjective' because all ideas and terms immediately becoming meaningless.

[David7204]

LindsayLohan wrote...

David7204 wrote...

If the audience doesn't care about the protagonist, yes, the story is incredibly bad.

And if the protagonist is evil, selfish, or unlikeable, why on Earth should they care?

Not entirely. I don't understand how you would jump to such a conclusion David. How the audience connects to the protagonist is based on the presentation of said protagonist. The story is a factor but it is not the only decider. The story keeps them compelled in the series but the presentation of the character is more likely to determinet the attraction to said character. By presentation I mean a series of systems working concurrently to deliver the perspective of the character to the audience. 

I also don't understand how one would relate evil to unlikable. You might have to elaborate on that one boss.

If the story successfully doesn't present them as evil, then they're aren't evil.

Modifié par David7204, 15 septembre 2013 - 12:57 .

[d-boy15]

AresKeith wrote...

Speaking of likeable evil characters: Zinyak from Saints Row 4, Raul Menendez Black Ops 2

Handsome Jack (Borderlands 2), Shodan (System Shock 2), GLaDOS (Portal 1-2)

[Plaintiff]

Zu Long wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...

Again, subjective. From my point of view most stories in media today, especially television series, are driven by casts populated almost entirely by awful people. Sons of Anarchy, Breaking Bad, Game of Thrones, Desperate Housewives and Glee are five shows I can think of just off the top of my head that are populated almost entirely by despicable, awful, selfish people, and the plots revolve around these awul, selfish people betraying each other constantly.

Which explains why I have nearly stopped watching Television outside of Mythbusters, Whose Line is it Anyway, and the Daily Show.

Oh, I watched Game of Thrones. I just got bored of all the talking and the constant female nudity. The fact that I hated virtually all the characters had little to do with why I stopped watching.

I still do watch Glee, or would if it was, you know, on, because I like musicals. I'm still aware that all the characters are awful people, but that has little to do with it being badly written. What makes it badly written is the fact that the characters behave in the dumbest way possible virtually all the time. But that's true of most musicals.

Modifié par Plaintiff, 15 septembre 2013 - 12:59 .

[Maria Caliban]

d-boy15 wrote...

AresKeith wrote...

Speaking of likeable evil characters: Zinyak from Saints Row 4, Raul Menendez Black Ops 2

Handsome Jack (Borderlands 2), Shodan (System Shock 2), GLaDOS (Portal 1-2)

He specifically said protagonist.

[Grand Admiral Cheesecake]

David7204 wrote...

'Everything is subjective' is not an argument I give the slightest bit of merit to. There's no point in discussing anything concerning fiction if 'Everything is subjective' because all ideas and terms immediately becoming meaningless.

Davids don't know 'bout mah moral ambiguity!

[MassivelyEffective0730]

David7204 wrote...

If the audience doesn't care about the protagonist, yes, the story is incredibly bad.

And if the protagonist is evil, selfish, or unlikeable, why on Earth should they care?

Why should I care about a character that is nausiatingly good or heroic or whatnot? 

You're self-projecting. You're stating what you don't like.

You also aren't defining 'unlikeable'. I guarantee that that word means two different things to both of us.

[David7204]

I have no idea at all where you got that conclusion from.

[SlottsMachine]

David7204 wrote...

'Everything is subjective' is not an argument I give the slightest bit of merit to. There's no point in discussing anything concerning fiction if 'Everything is subjective' because all ideas and terms immediately becoming meaningless.

Uh huh. When someone uses the term subjective they basically mean, don't jam your ideas/opinions down everyone's throat. Not "you" specifically, but in general. Though it does often apply to you. 

[d-boy15]

Maria Caliban wrote...

d-boy15 wrote...

AresKeith wrote...

Speaking of likeable evil characters: Zinyak from Saints Row 4, Raul Menendez Black Ops 2

Handsome Jack (Borderlands 2), Shodan (System Shock 2), GLaDOS (Portal 1-2)

He specifically said protagonist.

Ah... my bad 

But Zinyak  is not protagonist and Menandez is playable for about 15 minutes. 

Modifié par d-boy15, 15 septembre 2013 - 01:03 .

[MassivelyEffective0730]

David7204 wrote...

I think we all need to keep in mind this only applies to drama. Obviously, protagonists are routinely sociopathic in comedy. Because it's funny.

Dexter? He's pretty evil. Granted he becomes more... human as the series draws on. 

But he'll still kill a cop to keep his secret. And prevent his girlfriend and sister, both of whom have committed murder, from being found out.

[Zu Long]

Plaintiff wrote...

Zu Long wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...

Again, subjective. From my point of view most stories in media today, especially television series, are driven by casts populated almost entirely by awful people. Sons of Anarchy, Breaking Bad, Game of Thrones, Desperate Housewives and Glee are five shows I can think of just off the top of my head that are populated almost entirely by despicable, awful, selfish people, and the plots revolve around these awul, selfish people betraying each other constantly.

Which explains why I have nearly stopped watching Television outside of Mythbusters, Whose Line is it Anyway, and the Daily Show.

Oh, I watched Game of Thrones. I just got bored of all the talking and the constant female nudity. The fact that I hated virtually all the characters had little to do with why I stopped watching.

I still do watch Glee, or would if it was, you know, on, because I like musicals. I'm still aware that all the characters are awful people, but that has little to do with it being badly written. What makes it badly written is the fact that the characters behave in the dumbest way possible virtually all the time. But that's true of most musicals.

I never started watching either, precisely because I don't find watching unlikeable characters entertaining. I have high hopes for Agents of S.H.I.E.L.D. though.

[David7204]

General Slotts wrote...

David7204 wrote...

'Everything is subjective' is not an argument I give the slightest bit of merit to. There's no point in discussing anything concerning fiction if 'Everything is subjective' because all ideas and terms immediately becoming meaningless.

Uh huh. When someone uses the term subjective they basically mean, don't jam your ideas/opinions down everyone's throat. Not "you" specifically, but in general. Though it does often apply to you. 

That's too bad. You don't have the right to only be exposed to ideas you disagree with. That's the thing about being given the freedom to believe what you want, see? It comes with the reponsibility of choosing what's right and what isn't.

[MassivelyEffective0730]

Grand Admiral Cheesecake wrote...

David7204 wrote...

I'm not 'knocking down' any games because I don't know of any games where the protagonist is intentionally made evil.

Overlord

Tropico

Grand Theft Auto, KotOR, TOR. 

What is an evil character? Define evil.

[MassivelyEffective0730]

David7204 wrote...

General Slotts wrote...

David7204 wrote...

'Everything is subjective' is not an argument I give the slightest bit of merit to. There's no point in discussing anything concerning fiction if 'Everything is subjective' because all ideas and terms immediately becoming meaningless.

Uh huh. When someone uses the term subjective they basically mean, don't jam your ideas/opinions down everyone's throat. Not "you" specifically, but in general. Though it does often apply to you. 

That's too bad. You don't have the right to only be exposed to ideas you disagree with. That's the thing about being given the freedom to believe what you want, see? It comes with the reponsibility of choosing what's right and what isn't.

What's right? What's not right?

[Plaintiff]

David7204 wrote...

'Everything is subjective' is not an argument I give the slightest bit of merit to. There's no point in discussing anything concerning fiction if 'Everything is subjective' because all ideas and terms immediately becoming meaningless.

Well if you're not going to give merit to the truth, then what's the point of a discussion?

Morality and personal taste are subjective, and that's just a fact. 'Evil' is an abstract concept and people use that label to describe anything they don't like.

Meaning is also subjective. There is no objective meaning in a work of fiction. The meaning you take away depends on your interpretation alone.

Modifié par Plaintiff, 15 septembre 2013 - 01:05 .

[SlottsMachine]

David7204 wrote...

General Slotts wrote...

David7204 wrote...

'Everything is subjective' is not an argument I give the slightest bit of merit to. There's no point in discussing anything concerning fiction if 'Everything is subjective' because all ideas and terms immediately becoming meaningless.

Uh huh. When someone uses the term subjective they basically mean, don't jam your ideas/opinions down everyone's throat. Not "you" specifically, but in general. Though it does often apply to you. 

That's too bad. You don't have the right to only be exposed to ideas you disagree with. That's the thing about being given the freedom to believe what you want, see? It comes with the reponsibility of choosing what's right and what isn't.

WTF are you talking about. 

[David7204]

LindsayLohan wrote...

David7204 wrote...

I have no idea at all where you got that conclusion from.

Wasn't your premise based on evil characters as not likable? Cause evil in a sense is an area that could be approached in different ways.

Yes, it could. For example, I wouldn't think of Glados as evil.

[Xilizhra]

MassivelyEffective0730 wrote...

Grand Admiral Cheesecake wrote...

David7204 wrote...

I'm not 'knocking down' any games because I don't know of any games where the protagonist is intentionally made evil.

Overlord

Tropico

Grand Theft Auto, KotOR, TOR. 

What is an evil character? Define evil.

Out of curiosity, what would you call a light-sided Imperial?