392 réponses à ce sujet

[Cainhurst Crow]

Xilizhra wrote...

Zu Long wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

I have one. I'm making the best use of my timecard, then never subscribing again because Austin is a piece of ****.

Huh. I've been a subscriber since the beginning. No complaints yet, though I'll probably switch to Star Citizen once that comes out.

There are two major problems. The first is probably not really their fault, which is that this game should never have been an MMO to begin with; all that makes it is an inferior WoW clone with a whole bunch of wasted story potential. The second, which definitely is, is their utterly botched lack of attempt at romance equality, not to mention remarkably sexist writing within the romances themselves.

HA HA OH WOW. XD

Never change you magnificant bastard. Never change.

[Navasha]

I think a lot of you are confusing "evil" characters with Anti-Hero characters. Anti-hero characters and not necessarily good-natured, but they are still pursuing "good" goals.

Kain, is an evil vampire sure... However, he is still trying to save the world from the corrupted guardians. It isn't until the end that he chooses to become truly evil, in which case he ends becoming an NPC antagonist in the following games.
Same as in the Prototype games.. You are only playing the "evil' protagonist while you believe there is something more evil out there to fight against.

Anti-heroes are still considered to be working towards a good goal or at least a 'less evil' goal than an even greater evil may hold.

[Zu Long]

Xilizhra wrote...

Zu Long wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

I have one. I'm making the best use of my timecard, then never subscribing again because Austin is a piece of ****.

Huh. I've been a subscriber since the beginning. No complaints yet, though I'll probably switch to Star Citizen once that comes out.

There are two major problems. The first is probably not really their fault, which is that this game should never have been an MMO to begin with; all that makes it is an inferior WoW clone with a whole bunch of wasted story potential. The second, which definitely is, is their utterly botched lack of attempt at romance equality, not to mention remarkably sexist writing within the romances themselves.

Well, I can't agree with the first one. TOR is the only MMO I've ever played to level cap, precisely because it had a story element that made the grind to level cap more than just...well, grinding. And indeed, I've played through all 8 stories now and I enjoyed all of them.

I have to agree with the second though. I'm hoping they'll do a better job of it in the future, but I don't see much in the way of new context-dependant companions. I haven't caught the sexism you mentioned.

[MassivelyEffective0730]

Navasha wrote...

I think a lot of you are confusing "evil" characters with Anti-Hero characters. Anti-hero characters and not necessarily good-natured, but they are still pursuing "good" goals.

Kain, is an evil vampire sure... However, he is still trying to save the world from the corrupted guardians. It isn't until the end that he chooses to become truly evil, in which case he ends becoming an NPC antagonist in the following games.
Same as in the Prototype games.. You are only playing the "evil' protagonist while you believe there is something more evil out there to fight against.

Anti-heroes are still considered to be working towards a good goal or at least a 'less evil' goal than an even greater evil may hold.

But they're still rather demented and

In fact, some of the blatantly villainous characters are fighting against what they believe is evil, even if that thing they are fighting against is not comparatively as dark or whatever.

The old Shakespeare, Macbeth, is a good example of this. Macbeth is rather dark and villainous, yet he's the protagonist. The antagonist, the villain, is Macduff, who is portrayed as honorable, virtuous, and loyal to the true heir of Scotland.

[In Exile]

Stone Spade wrote...


Not exatly.

And it's not like L was any more moral.

Or Guts from Berserk.

[Xilizhra]

Zu Long wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

Zu Long wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

I have one. I'm making the best use of my timecard, then never subscribing again because Austin is a piece of ****.

Huh. I've been a subscriber since the beginning. No complaints yet, though I'll probably switch to Star Citizen once that comes out.

There are two major problems. The first is probably not really their fault, which is that this game should never have been an MMO to begin with; all that makes it is an inferior WoW clone with a whole bunch of wasted story potential. The second, which definitely is, is their utterly botched lack of attempt at romance equality, not to mention remarkably sexist writing within the romances themselves.

Well, I can't agree with the first one. TOR is the only MMO I've ever played to level cap, precisely because it had a story element that made the grind to level cap more than just...well, grinding. And indeed, I've played through all 8 stories now and I enjoyed all of them.

I have to agree with the second though. I'm hoping they'll do a better job of it in the future, but I don't see much in the way of new context-dependant companions. I haven't caught the sexism you mentioned.

I don't know if I could stand replaying the same quests four times just to get the different class quests, honestly. Especially on the Imperial side, which is frequently unpleasant.

As for the other thing... they have a major pregnancy fetish and assume that all female characters are interested in the idea, which strikes me as being innocuous in one or two cases, but it's far too systematic. And emblematic of their total lack of concern for any homosexual romances.

[Zu Long]

EntropicAngel wrote...

Too short though.

A good game always feels too short to me. Indeed, if I end up desperately hoping for more to play, that's part of what tells me it was a good game.

I tend to hope for about 10-20 hours of solid gameplay. If I get more, then that's a bonus. I don't know if you could make Portal 2 longer without feeling strung out, it had about as much plot as it needed to.

Modifié par Zu Long, 15 septembre 2013 - 01:42 .

[MassivelyEffective0730]

EntropicAngel wrote...

MassivelyEffective0730 wrote...

You know why though? It's not because he cares, but because he has a code that he's been given that he follows that satisfies his urges and allows him to clean up the lowest denominator of society. 

In later seasons, he has indeed killed innocent people (while letting people who are guilty go free... like Hannah... and Zach... and Debra.)

He was fully prepared and indeed fullly intended to kill LaGuerta in Season 7 just because she was onto him. He killed Hannah's father, who, while being an ****, was innocent according to his code.

Dexter isn't a good guy. It's shown that he is objectively an evil guy that works for the good guys. A sociopathic hero. It's ironic since he becomes a much more normal and human character as the series progresses. He actually falls in love (with Hannah) and dreams of giving up the killing life to have a life with her... and it's ironic since this is the time when he's also killing people (or planning on killing people) that don't fit his code.

To quote Sherlock: "I may be on the side of the angels, but don't think for one second that I am one of them."

I never said he was portrayed as good.

I only really watched...a small part of 2, a small part of 3, 4, and...part of 5 if I remember correctly. In the ones I watched Dexter's murder of innocents is met with dismay on his part. What you mention about Hannah is true and important--he's trying to stop. That was a running theme of 4 and Trinity and Hanna--he's trying to figure out how not to be who he is. He's not unabashedly evil.

What is unabashedly evil? And in Season 7? No, he carefully plans the demise of people who are innocent. He's not at all dismayed that he has to kill them, minus the fact that it will raise unnecessary questions. But he has no remorse over LaGuerta's murder by Deb (and whom he was deliberately trying to discredit and frame), and no remorse for murdering Clint McKay, Hannah's father.

Modifié par MassivelyEffective0730, 15 septembre 2013 - 01:31 .

[Zu Long]

Xilizhra wrote...

I don't know if I could stand replaying the same quests four times just to get the different class quests, honestly. Especially on the Imperial side, which is frequently unpleasant.

As for the other thing... they have a major pregnancy fetish and assume that all female characters are interested in the idea, which strikes me as being innocuous in one or two cases, but it's far too systematic. And emblematic of their total lack of concern for any homosexual romances.

Part of the replayability is the MMO aspect. I have a friend I don't get to see in person anymore because he moved to Atlanta. We each pick a class and then go through the story together. My brother also joins in occasionally, and we move through the stories with three characters at a time, though I think two is the best since both of you can have your companions out at all times. in anycase, by the third or fourth time through, we're making fun of everything, but it's like a favority movie that you know by heart.

As far as the pregnancy thing... I dunno. I've played through with four guys and four girls I don't remember the girls being more obsessed with Family than the guys, though again, it may have just been me missing things. As a straight guy, I tend to be the target demographic. My female trooper I kept out of the straight romance in the hopes of homosexual companion later, but as we've said, they really did fall down on that one.

Modifié par Zu Long, 15 septembre 2013 - 01:39 .

[Xilizhra]

I think the MMO aspect really harms replayability, actually, because it makes no sense at all for all those other characters to be running around, and I try to stay out of groups as much as possible.

As far as the pregnancy thing... I dunno. I've played through with four guys and four girls I don't remember the girls being more obsessed with Family than the guys, though again, it may have just been me missing things. As a straight guy, I tend to be the target demographic. My female trooper I kept out of the straight romance in the hopes of homosexual companion later, but as we've said, they really did fall down on that one.

The guys being obsessed with family basically assume that your own desire is to get pregnant, so that... really doesn't help.

[Zu Long]

Xilizhra wrote...

I think the MMO aspect really harms replayability, actually, because it makes no sense at all for all those other characters to be running around, and I try to stay out of groups as much as possible.

As far as the pregnancy thing... I dunno. I've played through with four guys and four girls I don't remember the girls being more obsessed with Family than the guys, though again, it may have just been me missing things. As a straight guy, I tend to be the target demographic. My female trooper I kept out of the straight romance in the hopes of homosexual companion later, but as we've said, they really did fall down on that one.

The guys being obsessed with family basically assume that your own desire is to get pregnant, so that... really doesn't help.

Well, no one ever says getting pregnant though, and inded, given that in many cases you are two alien races, actually having kids wouldn't really be possible. I usually figured they were talking about adoption, since I liked playing aliens.

As far as the MMO thing, like I said, it's the only thing that's gotten me through 8 characters. I was only able to solo through the story once or twice on both sides.

[someguy1231]

David7204 wrote...

I'm not 'knocking down' any games because I don't know of any games where the protagonist is intentionally made evil.

Prototype
Overlord
Tropico
Legacy of Kain
God of War
PAYDAY 1 and 2
Star Wars: The Force Unleashed (DLC)
Spec Ops: The Line
GTA V (Trevor looks to be outright evil)

And that doesn't include fighting games, which almost always have at least one evil character, or RTS games, where you often play as the villain of the setting for at least one campaign, or the innumerable games that give the player the choice to be good or evil.

[someguy1231]

David7204 wrote...

LindsayLohan wrote...

David7204 wrote...

The premise is evil characters with no or few redeeming traits are generally unlikeable, yes. A lot of things depend on the narrative portrayal.

So you agreee that the protagonist is largly based on presentation and not a bad story?

Everything in every story is always largly based on presentation. I'm unsure what your point is.

And that's why I think your claim that evil characters are unlikeable is a bunch of BS. Take a villain like the Joker. He's committed many evil deeds, no question, but he's one of the most popular villains in fiction because of the way he's presented.  If he didn't have his whole "monster clown" gimmick/persona and was a just a generic criminal, he never would have become so popular. And to tie this in to your "protagonist" idea, he's had quite a few comic series where he's the main character.

[9TailsFox]

Stone Spade wrote...

David7204 wrote...

The premise is evil characters with no or few redeeming traits are generally unlikeable, yes. A lot of things depend on the narrative portrayal.

Not exatly.

http://forums.nrvnqs...37&d=1344837532

You just prove him right. Light Is hero who punish criminals because law can't.