392 réponses à ce sujet

[In Exile]

OLDIRTYBARON wrote...
Like anything else in art, it depends on what experiences you're bringing to the table. For me, as an older brother who has practically raised his sisters, Booker and Elizabeth's story was very emotional.  My own questions about God, the afterlife, religion, and everything in between led to some serious contemplation during the early hours of the game. Especially during the hauntingly beautiful arrival in Columbia.

I didn't say it wasn't emotional. I didn't comment on that aspect of it. And I thought you meant something very different by your use of the word intellectual.

I would have said something like... thought provoking instead, but that's just us not being on the same page. 

Anway, for me, as a single child and a very secure atheist, these aren't questions that provoke thought. To me, the game was thinly veiled satire about American exceptionalist that went off rails with multi-world jargon midway through.

If you didn't feel anything, or if you didn't think anything during your time with the game, that's cool. It didn't speak to you. However, making a blanket judgment that because it didn't speak to you means it didn't speak to anyone else is pretty shallow. 

Again, I didn't comment on the emotion part. Apologies if it felt like I attacked your experience with the game. 

Modifié par In Exile, 14 septembre 2013 - 04:32 .

[Deflagratio]

EntropicAngel wrote...

Deflagratio wrote...

Bioshock: Infinite is about the concept in quantum mechanics known as String Theory.

Is it really about that? That actually sounds interesting. More interesting than loltimeparadox and clones, anyway.

Its a concept that's explored through a lot of Elizabeth's interactions with the tears and the resonance of time-space. Keep in Mind though, for obvious reasons, the game uses a very simplistic and diluted approach to addressing some of these concepts. Even so, the chances of "Woosh" are astronomical.

It also feeds into the theme of turn-of-the-century America because the early 1900's is when we first started exploring the subatomic level with the advent of things like scanning electron microscopes

Bioshock: Infinite has as many failures as successes though. Overall I will say Bioshock (Original) was a much better, cohesive and thoughtful product. Both as a game and a piece of intellectual deliverance.

OdanUrr wrote...

Deflagratio wrote...

The Last of Us is a Zombie Apocalypse survival game. BEST GAME EVAR.

Bioshock: Infinite is about the concept in quantum mechanics known as String Theory. OMG CLICHE AND UNORIGINAL.

It is and it isn't.[smilie]http://social.bioware.com/images/forum/emoticons/wizard.png[/smilie]

It's funny how perfectly your response sums up Bioshock: Infinite.

[AppealToReason]

Deflagratio wrote...

AppealToReason wrote...

I didn't find Infinite's ending to be that wow, let alone the entirety of the plot. It was actually probably my least favourite Bioshock game. So I hope DAI will be better.

If you liked Bioshock's ending more than Infinite's, I really think you need your head examined.

HURR IM ATLAS POKE ME WITH NEEDLES


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HOW MANU LIL SISTER U SAVE?????


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LOL GOOD ENDING 4 U


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Would you kindly end Bioshock after the Andrew Ryan scene?! Rest of the game is sooooo just padding.

I just enjoyed the other games more.

[Dave of Canada]

Deflagratio wrote...

Bioshock: Infinite is about the concept in quantum mechanics known as String Theory. OMG CLICHE AND UNORIGINAL.

Cliched and unoriginal isn't the problem with BioShock Infinite's writing, it's everything else. The unoriginal tag belongs to Elizabeth.

[VampireSoap]

EntropicAngel wrote...

I'm leaving that quote in there so you can point out where I acted "mad."

Of course not every game that has a story is automatically story-driven. I never said that, either. I'm saying that Bioware has focused on story heavy games for at least ten years now. And to expect anything other than that is silly.

I wouldn't know about Call of Duty, I haven't played it since the first game.

Yes, I can see your comment very well. Maybe sometimes I'm not getting it, it happens all the time. Understanding usually takes time. And saying things like "I'm leaving my quote there so you can point out..." is just insulting. I'm not blind, you know, and if I'm really partially blind and using electronic equipment to help me see and reply threads, I would be really insulted right now.

And if you think DA2 or SWTOR are "story-heavy" games, that's fine. You are entitled to your opinion. I just don't agree, that's all.

[Deflagratio]

AppealToReason wrote...

Deflagratio wrote...

AppealToReason wrote...

I didn't find Infinite's ending to be that wow, let alone the entirety of the plot. It was actually probably my least favourite Bioshock game. So I hope DAI will be better.

If you liked Bioshock's ending more than Infinite's, I really think you need your head examined.



Would you kindly end Bioshock after the Andrew Ryan scene?! Rest of the game is sooooo just padding.

I just enjoyed the other games more.

That's fine, I just got done saying Bioshock(Original) was better. I'm mostly just poking fun at the ending of Bioshock. Which even according to Levine, was a catastrophic low-point forced on his game.

Dave of Canada wrote...

Deflagratio wrote...

Bioshock: Infinite is about the concept in quantum mechanics known as String Theory. OMG CLICHE AND UNORIGINAL.

Cliched
and unoriginal isn't the problem with BioShock Infinite's writing, it's
everything else. The unoriginal tag belongs to Elizabeth.

There's no such thing as a truly original character anymore anyway. Archetypes are archetypes for a reason, they work and are on some level relatable. Even Andrew Ryan was pretty much just a hybrid of Howard Hughs and some character from Atlas Shrugged I can't remember right now.

Also, just to clear things up because I hear it all the time "Bioshock is just Atlas Shrugged", it's not. It's Levine's critique of the idea of Atlas Shrugged and the objectivist society. Individualism and the collaspe of society tend to go hand-in-hand.

Modifié par Deflagratio, 14 septembre 2013 - 04:44 .

[OLDIRTYBARON]

In Exile wrote...

I didn't say it wasn't emotional. I didn't comment on that aspect of it. And I thought you meant something very different by your use of the word intellectual.

I would have said something like... thought provoking instead, but that's just us not being on the same page.

Fair enough. You're probably right about my use of the word. 

Anway, for me, as a single child and a very secure atheist, these aren't questions that provoke thought. To me, the game was thinly veiled satire about American exceptionalist that went off rails with multi-world jargon midway through.

I can totally see that interpretation. For me though, all of the American exceptionalism and racism and hoot-a-nanny about the multiverse was all window dressing to obfuscate the point of Infinite. To me, that point was telling the story of how regret can swallow you whole if you let it. I'm a sucker for redemptive arcs, and this very simple story about a man and his daughter and how they learn to reconcile and move forward just hit me right in the feels. 

Again, I didn't comment on the emotion part. Apologies if it felt like I attacked your experience with the game. 

I need to use better words, honestly. I didn't think you were attacking my experience. I wasn't trying to call you shallow, either. I'm just not very tactful, I'm finding.

Zu Long wrote...

You did precisely that when you claimed Bioware was all about feel-good, though.

I suppose I did. To me, the intention of a BioWare game is clearly about the power fantasy, though. You meet and quest with interesting people, some of them becoming friends, and at the end of the day it's all about the adventure you had with those people. I didn't mean to imply that there was no emotional or intellectual worth to that. Of course there is. I'm often the first person to talk about those things in relation to companions in BioWare games. Like I said to Exile, I'm not very tactful in my wording.

[AppealToReason]

Deflagratio wrote...

AppealToReason wrote...

Deflagratio wrote...

AppealToReason wrote...

I didn't find Infinite's ending to be that wow, let alone the entirety of the plot. It was actually probably my least favourite Bioshock game. So I hope DAI will be better.

If you liked Bioshock's ending more than Infinite's, I really think you need your head examined.



Would you kindly end Bioshock after the Andrew Ryan scene?! Rest of the game is sooooo just padding.

I just enjoyed the other games more.

That's fine, I just got done saying Bioshock(Original) was better. I'm mostly just poking fun at the ending of Bioshock. Which even according to Levine, was a catastrophic low-point forced on his game.

Meh, I didn't think it was that bad.

I think I just loved the setting of Rapture the most.

[VampireSoap]

In Exile wrote...

VampireSoap wrote...
No...it won't make me feel better because you're still not understanding me. Would you be so kind to try at least?

What is there to parse? You seem to be suggesting that gameplay can't be a much higher design priority than story for the game to be story-driven, and that's wrong. If you're suggest gameplay is a much bigger feature of your overall time than story, and the game can't be story driven as a result, that's also wrong.

So what is there to miss?

Ok...can you explain why that is wrong?

[Zu Long]

VampireSoap wrote...

EntropicAngel wrote...

I'm leaving that quote in there so you can point out where I acted "mad."

Of course not every game that has a story is automatically story-driven. I never said that, either. I'm saying that Bioware has focused on story heavy games for at least ten years now. And to expect anything other than that is silly.

I wouldn't know about Call of Duty, I haven't played it since the first game.

Yes, I can see your comment very well. Maybe sometimes I'm not getting it, it happens all the time. Understanding usually takes time. And saying things like "I'm leaving my quote there so you can point out..." is just insulting. I'm not blind, you know, and if I'm really partially blind and using electronic equipment to help me see and reply threads, I would be really insulted right now.

And if you think DA2 or SWTOR are "story-heavy" games, that's fine. You are entitled to your opinion. I just don't agree, that's all.

I've played SWTOR for the last two years with Story being the only reason. MMORPG fare doesn't really appeal to me, so people's complaints about "the end game" never really mattered. I've played through all eight stories now, and generally enjoyed all of them. The Jedi Knight, Imperial Agent, and Bounty Hunter stories were particularly interesting, IMO.

As far as DA2, the story wasn't my favorite part (the characters were the best part of the game for me) but I thought the story was well done, as far as it went. I just didn't like it.

[Eterna]

I didn't like Bioshock Infinite's story though.

[In Exile]

OLDIRTYBARON wrote...
I can totally see that interpretation. For me though, all of the American exceptionalism and racism and hoot-a-nanny about the multiverse was all window dressing to obfuscate the point of Infinite. To me, that point was telling the story of how regret can swallow you whole if you let it. I'm a sucker for redemptive arcs, and this very simple story about a man and his daughter and how they learn to reconcile and move forward just hit me right in the feels.

It was hard for me to see the arc as redemptive when they conspired to commit a crime of such an insane magnitude toghether (playing the ending straight), that they make Comstock look like the greatest hero in human existence by comparison. They literally erased worlds out of existence because NY got bombed and Elizabeth ended up being tortured. 

I'd say that the game ended with Elizabeth being 10 times the villan Comstock could ever have been. 

I need to use better words, honestly. I didn't think you were attacking my experience. I wasn't trying to call you shallow, either. I'm just not very tactful, I'm finding.

I have a thick skin and tend to be blunt, so don't worry. 

I suppose I did. To me, the intention of a BioWare game is clearly about the power fantasy, though. You meet and quest with interesting people, some of them becoming friends, and at the end of the day it's all about the adventure you had with those people. I didn't mean to imply that there was no emotional or intellectual worth to that. Of course there is. I'm often the first person to talk about those things in relation to companions in BioWare games. Like I said to Exile, I'm not very tactful in my wording. 

There are parts of Bioware games that can hit hard. Like the CE origin. Anyway, pretty much every game that isn't horror is about a power fantasy. Even Infinite. It just happned to not be about the protagonist's power fantasy (well, sort of). 

Modifié par In Exile, 14 septembre 2013 - 04:45 .

[In Exile]

VampireSoap wrote...

Ok...can you explain why that is wrong?

Which one of the two?

[Deflagratio]

AppealToReason wrote...

Deflagratio wrote...

AppealToReason wrote...

Deflagratio wrote...

AppealToReason wrote...

I didn't find Infinite's ending to be that wow, let alone the entirety of the plot. It was actually probably my least favourite Bioshock game. So I hope DAI will be better.

If you liked Bioshock's ending more than Infinite's, I really think you need your head examined.



Would you kindly end Bioshock after the Andrew Ryan scene?! Rest of the game is sooooo just padding.

I just enjoyed the other games more.

That's fine, I just got done saying Bioshock(Original) was better. I'm mostly just poking fun at the ending of Bioshock. Which even according to Levine, was a catastrophic low-point forced on his game.

I think I just loved the setting of Rapture the most.

I can drink to that.

One of the biggest failures of Bioshock: Infinite is being too attached to Bioshock's success. You can see this in the unwillingness to ditch "Plasmids" (Vigors) which in the context of Columbia make no sense.

[Zu Long]

OLDIRTYBARON wrote...

Zu Long wrote...

You did precisely that when you claimed Bioware was all about feel-good, though.

I suppose I did. To me, the intention of a BioWare game is clearly about the power fantasy, though. You meet and quest with interesting people, some of them becoming friends, and at the end of the day it's all about the adventure you had with those people. I didn't mean to imply that there was no emotional or intellectual worth to that. Of course there is. I'm often the first person to talk about those things in relation to companions in BioWare games. Like I said to Exile, I'm not very tactful in my wording.

There definitely is a power-fantasy to it, but that's true for nearly all video games, Bioshock included. I mean how many crazy goons does Booker single-handedly mow down during that game?

I actually think the Loyalty missions of ME2 are some of the best story-telling in gaming when it comes to emotionally challenging the player. Thane, Miranda, Tali, Garrus, Legion, Mordin, and Samarra all had deeply personal stories which dealt with themes that ran the gamut, without ever feeling heavy-handed and forced the way Bioshock games do for me.

Modifié par Zu Long, 14 septembre 2013 - 04:51 .

[OLDIRTYBARON]

EntropicAngel wrote...

Not to come off as aggresive--but tell that to DA ][ and ME3, especially their endings.

One reason I like the stories of those two--they shake up the Bioware status-quo.

I agree with you. That's part of why I like DA2 as much as I do. Lord knows it's not for all of the customization options. 

As far as ME3 goes... man. That one hurt. I can't lie and say I enjoyed it. I don't even care about the weird star child reveal, really. For me the biggest gut punch was spending 100 hours in a galaxy worth preserving, with characters I grew to love, and to have all of that ripped away was just. Man. I curled up in the fetal position once it dawned on me that I destroyed the Relay network and marooned the galactic fleet in the Sol System. It just sucked the wind out of me. Like, what the hell did I just fight for, if that's how it all ends? Was it even worth it? 

Of course it matters a little less now. The Extended Cut did a lot to alleviate my issues with ME3, but as far as DA2 is concerned, I quite liked how Hawke was struggling to keep the city together and no matter how hard he held on, it kept slipping away from him like so much sand through fingers.

In Exile wrote...

There are parts of Bioware games that can hit hard. Like the CE origin. Anyway, pretty much every game that isn't horror is about a power fantasy. Even Infinite. It just happned to not be about the protagonist's power fantasy (well, sort of).

I agree. The City Elf origin is my favourite. It was especially poignant for me considering my people (talking about race here) aren't treated too differently from the elves of Dragon Age. That's probably why Origins resonated as strongly as it did with me. As far as power fantasies go, I don't know, maybe. I don't think gameplay through combat is naturally inclined toward power fantasy. I think the violence is a tool that can be used to express themes and character moments as well as dialogue and cutscenes can. While I wouldn't argue something like Gears of War being a power fantasy, I would argue that God of War is not. Thematically, there is nothing cathartic about the savagery on display in those games - all of the violence Kratos commits only serves to reinforce his villainy. That's more of what I was getting at when I referred to the power fantasy. If that makes any sense.

Modifié par OLDIRTYBARON, 14 septembre 2013 - 04:57 .

[AppealToReason]

Deflagratio wrote...

AppealToReason wrote...

Deflagratio wrote...

AppealToReason wrote...

Deflagratio wrote...

AppealToReason wrote...

I didn't find Infinite's ending to be that wow, let alone the entirety of the plot. It was actually probably my least favourite Bioshock game. So I hope DAI will be better.

If you liked Bioshock's ending more than Infinite's, I really think you need your head examined.



Would you kindly end Bioshock after the Andrew Ryan scene?! Rest of the game is sooooo just padding.

I just enjoyed the other games more.

That's fine, I just got done saying Bioshock(Original) was better. I'm mostly just poking fun at the ending of Bioshock. Which even according to Levine, was a catastrophic low-point forced on his game.

I think I just loved the setting of Rapture the most.

I can drink to that.

One of the biggest failures of Bioshock: Infinite is being too attached to Bioshock's success. You can see this in the unwillingness to ditch "Plasmids" (Vigors) which in the context of Columbia make no sense.

I wasn't as big a fan of the new vigors either. I liked my old plasmids way more. They felt more special for whatever reason.

[AppealToReason]

Zu Long wrote...

OLDIRTYBARON wrote...

Zu Long wrote...

You did precisely that when you claimed Bioware was all about feel-good, though.

I suppose I did. To me, the intention of a BioWare game is clearly about the power fantasy, though. You meet and quest with interesting people, some of them becoming friends, and at the end of the day it's all about the adventure you had with those people. I didn't mean to imply that there was no emotional or intellectual worth to that. Of course there is. I'm often the first person to talk about those things in relation to companions in BioWare games. Like I said to Exile, I'm not very tactful in my wording.

There definitely is a power-fantasy to it, but that's true for nearly all video games, Bioshock included. I mean how many crazy goons does Booker single-handedly mow down during that game?

I actually think the Loyalty missions of ME2 are some of the best story-telling in gaming when it comes to emotionally challenging the player. Thane, Miranda, Tali, Garrus, Legion, Mordin, and Samarra all had deeply personal stories which dealt with themes that ran the gamut, without ever feeling heavy-handed and forced the way Bioshock games do for me.

This isn't directly related but now that I think of it, most of Mass Effect 2's loyalty missions was dealing with some branch of daddy issues.

[Zu Long]

AppealToReason wrote...

Zu Long wrote...

There definitely is a power-fantasy to it, but that's true for nearly all video games, Bioshock included. I mean how many crazy goons does Booker single-handedly mow down during that game?

I actually think the Loyalty missions of ME2 are some of the best story-telling in gaming when it comes to emotionally challenging the player. Thane, Miranda, Tali, Garrus, Legion, Mordin, and Samarra all had deeply personal stories which dealt with themes that ran the gamut, without ever feeling heavy-handed and forced the way Bioshock games do for me.

This isn't directly related but now that I think of it, most of Mass Effect 2's loyalty missions was dealing with some branch of daddy issues.

The first three I mentioned were, along with Jacob's (which I thought was the weakest, honestly). I forgot to mention Jack's story, which I liked as well. Grunt's was okay, but kind of bland. Same for Kasumi and Zaeed. The best stories are always about family in one way or another though, at least IMO.

[Zu Long]

EntropicAngel wrote...

AppealToReason wrote...

This isn't directly related but now that I think of it, most of Mass Effect 2's loyalty missions was dealing with some branch of daddy issues.

Same for ME1. Liara doesn't have a mission but the whole issue with her mother. Wrex is exactly a daddy issue. Tali's is sort of--it's getting stuff for the fleet.

Garrus's C-Sec dad and his by-the-book rules get brought up a lot as well. Ashley mentions her dad constantly. I was glad I chose Spacer so Shepard could have some mother-daughter time herself. :-P