392 réponses à ce sujet

[AresKeith]

Maria Caliban wrote...

Milan92 wrote...

Also, zombies can only walk. Infected can run.

Okay, now you're just trolling In Exile to see if he can keep his word and not talk.

Shh

[Mr.House]

Deflagratio wrote...

Mr.House wrote...

They don't eat Joel..... THEY bite Joel. One bite, all it takes is one bite from an Infected and you are dead. Joel is not some super duper immune human, he;'s a normal human who is simply skilled at stealth and guns.

He's got mad Shiv skills too, one would almost say... Superhuman?????


Can you tell I'm joking yet? Or do I have to talk about how the Big guys are just pulling apart Joels skull to get to the creamy center?

[Todd23]

It'll be the hero's journey were it starts off with things looking good in your characters life until something bad happens. When the character's journey gets started he has to do this and that which happens to leave him with a roster of skilled companions with radicaly different view points. And after a lot of saving groups as well as letting some people die. He finally defeats the recurring vilian who actually had good intentions just before defeating the real great evil. Anything different in anyway shape or form and its not bioware.

[Plaintiff]

Mr.House wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...

Bioshock Infinite's story isn't that great. The ending is a cluster**** of nonsense and the premise that a character who can open portals to other dimensions would need help escaping from anywhere is downright silly.

Go read the million of ending write ups if you don't understand the ending. Ending makes perfect sense and it is not nonsense, the fact that you don't understand the premise shows me you just don't understand the game.

Um... how about no. If I need to do extra research to understand a story, that's bad writing. All the information I need should be in there already.

As it is, I have a passing familiarity with the concepts the game is dealing with, enough to know that it's not covered adquately.

[Mr.House]

Plaintiff wrote...

Mr.House wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...

Bioshock Infinite's story isn't that great. The ending is a cluster**** of nonsense and the premise that a character who can open portals to other dimensions would need help escaping from anywhere is downright silly.

Go read the million of ending write ups if you don't understand the ending. Ending makes perfect sense and it is not nonsense, the fact that you don't understand the premise shows me you just don't understand the game.

Um... how about no. If I need to do extra research to understand a story, that's bad writing. All the information I need should be in there already.

As it is, I have a passing familiarity with the concepts the game is dealing with, enough to know that it's not covered adquately.

So it's bad writing you don't understand it but others do? Sounds legit.

[Plaintiff]

Mr.House wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...

Mr.House wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...

Bioshock Infinite's story isn't that great. The ending is a cluster**** of nonsense and the premise that a character who can open portals to other dimensions would need help escaping from anywhere is downright silly.

Go read the million of ending write ups if you don't understand the ending. Ending makes perfect sense and it is not nonsense, the fact that you don't understand the premise shows me you just don't understand the game.

Um... how about no. If I need to do extra research to understand a story, that's bad writing. All the information I need should be in there already.

As it is, I have a passing familiarity with the concepts the game is dealing with, enough to know that it's not covered adquately.

So it's bad writing you don't understand it but others do? Sounds legit.

I never said I didn't understand it. I said it was nonsense. In Bioshock Infinite's version of the many worlds theory, their solution to the 'problem' of Columbia wouldn't actually work.

[Milan92]

Nevermind. 

Modifié par Milan92, 14 septembre 2013 - 04:36 .

[SafetyShattered]

Mr.House wrote...

I doubt the story will be as good as Infinite, Last of us or even SR4, thoguh I do bet it will have fantastic characters.

This is what I'm expecting too.

[Milan92]

Shadowfang12 wrote...

Mr.House wrote...

I doubt the story will be as good as Infinite, Last of us or even SR4, thoguh I do bet it will have fantastic characters.

This is what I'm expecting too.

I disagree with SR 4. The story was alot of fun. But not like "Excellent writting!" 

Just another fun story.

Modifié par Milan92, 14 septembre 2013 - 04:39 .

[Taleroth]

Maria Caliban wrote...

scyphozoa wrote...

Anyway, lets get back to talking about how the story and characters exist to facilitate roleplaying.

Does a story that exists to facilitate RPing have to be different than one that doesn't?

For example, Planescape: Torment and Deus Ex: Human Revolution had very straight-forward, linear (main) narratives. What changed was how your character accomplished his goals and how he reacted to events and people.

Perhaps some circumstances are more conducive to role-playing. Does being an immortal amnesiac searching for answers in a world where belief shapes reality mean you inherently have more RP-ability built into the story?

Though BioWare has shown that traditional space epic and epic fantasy worlds/stories can also support RP.

Are there stories that, by their nature, would restrict role-playing?

Planescape: Torment was not very good at being a roleplaying game. It was a fantastic game, but its strengths were more suited to adventure games.

And I swear Avellone said something to that effect himself. I just wish I could find it again. Or I could be confusing his statements about how much working in D&D was problematic.

Modifié par Taleroth, 14 septembre 2013 - 04:55 .

[Iakus]

Mr.House wrote...

iakus wrote...

Just don't railroad an arbitrarilly "bittersweet" ending regardless of how we played. If it is "our story" and "our inquisitor" then we should have a say in how the Inquisitor's story ends.

This is the DA series, where no endings so far have baeen happy. It ranges from bad to bittersweet.

Good thing I never said "happy"

But previous DA games, especially Origins, have given us a degree of flexibility in how the endings turn out.

[Zu Long]

Mr.House wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...

Mr.House wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...

Bioshock Infinite's story isn't that great. The ending is a cluster**** of nonsense and the premise that a character who can open portals to other dimensions would need help escaping from anywhere is downright silly.

Go read the million of ending write ups if you don't understand the ending. Ending makes perfect sense and it is not nonsense, the fact that you don't understand the premise shows me you just don't understand the game.

Um... how about no. If I need to do extra research to understand a story, that's bad writing. All the information I need should be in there already.

As it is, I have a passing familiarity with the concepts the game is dealing with, enough to know that it's not covered adquately.

So it's bad writing you don't understand it but others do? Sounds legit.

What if I understood it but still think it's a cluster****? Claiming "you just don't understand" is a cheap copout and always has been. Its fine if you liked the game and think it was a good story, but that doesn't make it true for everyone.

Modifié par Zu Long, 14 septembre 2013 - 05:37 .

[Zu Long]

iakus wrote...

Mr.House wrote...

iakus wrote...

Just don't railroad an arbitrarilly "bittersweet" ending regardless of how we played. If it is "our story" and "our inquisitor" then we should have a say in how the Inquisitor's story ends.

This is the DA series, where no endings so far have baeen happy. It ranges from bad to bittersweet.

Good thing I never said "happy"

But previous DA games, especially Origins, have given us a degree of flexibility in how the endings turn out.

My city elf saved damn near everyone, became Bann of the Alienage and raised the city elves to a level they'd never been to before. She went on to save Amaranthine AND Vigil's Keep through awesomeness and prudent planning.

Those are both pretty happy outcomes for the main narratives of the story.

[Deflagratio]

Calling the Bioshock: Infinite ending a "Cluster****" is a failure of reason. Maybe you think it's good, maybe you think it's bad, but it's the exact opposite of a "Cluster***" it actually ties the rest of the game (Which is a Cluster****) back together. If you have any questions lingering, I'll be happy to answer the to the best of my ability.

[The Hierophant]

Zu Long wrote...

Mr.House wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...

Mr.House wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...

Bioshock Infinite's story isn't that great. The ending is a cluster**** of nonsense and the premise that a character who can open portals to other dimensions would need help escaping from anywhere is downright silly.

Go read the million of ending write ups if you don't understand the ending. Ending makes perfect sense and it is not nonsense, the fact that you don't understand the premise shows me you just don't understand the game.

Um... how about no. If I need to do extra research to understand a story, that's bad writing. All the information I need should be in there already.

As it is, I have a passing familiarity with the concepts the game is dealing with, enough to know that it's not covered adquately.

So it's bad writing you don't understand it but others do? Sounds legit.

What if I understood it but still thing it's a cluster****? Claiming "you just don't understand" is a cheap copout and always has been. Its fine if you liked the game and think it was a good story, but that doesn't make it true for everyone.

It's only a cluster**** if you didn't play any of the previous games and connect the similarities of the Rapture tech with Columbia's and it's existence during the latter's time period, along with the existence of a dimension hopper. Plus i remembered the Siphon machine being mentioned as limiting Elizabeth's powers while the Song Bird (Jailer) exists in nearly all the realities too.

Modifié par The Hierophant, 14 septembre 2013 - 06:50 .

[Zu Long]

Deflagratio wrote...

Calling the Bioshock: Infinite ending a "Cluster****" is a failure of reason. Maybe you think it's good, maybe you think it's bad, but it's the exact opposite of a "Cluster***" it actually ties the rest of the game (Which is a Cluster****) back together. If you have any questions lingering, I'll be happy to answer the to the best of my ability.

Calling it a cluster**** is the expression of my opinion, not a failure of anything. I have no questions.

[WoolyJoe]

Possibly the most commonly acknowledged strength of BioWar's games is the writing.
Whether Inquisition will have a story as good as the latest BioShock's will, ultimately, be left up to you.

Personally? I felt that Infinite's plot was smarter/bolder than it was engaging. Very well thought out and executed, but too grandiose; as the climax drew closer I became less interested in the protagonists.

But hey, so what? Subjectivity for the win, guy.

[Iakus]

Zu Long wrote...
My city elf saved damn near everyone, became Bann of the Alienage and raised the city elves to a level they'd never been to before. She went on to save Amaranthine AND Vigil's Keep through awesomeness and prudent planning.

Those are both pretty happy outcomes for the main narratives of the story.

The flexibility of DAO allowed you to achieve desired outcomes by paying prices you felt were worth it.  And it was awesome for it.

[Deflagratio]

Zu Long wrote...

Deflagratio wrote...

Calling the Bioshock: Infinite ending a "Cluster****" is a failure of reason. Maybe you think it's good, maybe you think it's bad, but it's the exact opposite of a "Cluster***" it actually ties the rest of the game (Which is a Cluster****) back together. If you have any questions lingering, I'll be happy to answer the to the best of my ability.

Calling it a cluster**** is the expression of my opinion, not a failure of anything. I have no questions.

Well, before I can refute or support your claim, I need to know what you define as a "Cluster****" .

If we have the same definition, I can objectively disprove the premise in which your opinion is founded, making it a failure of reason as there would be no rationality to reconcile the opinion with.

[In Exile]

Deflagratio wrote...

Calling the Bioshock: Infinite ending a "Cluster****" is a failure of reason. Maybe you think it's good, maybe you think it's bad, but it's the exact opposite of a "Cluster***" it actually ties the rest of the game (Which is a Cluster****) back together. If you have any questions lingering, I'll be happy to answer the to the best of my ability.

It's a failure of reason because it violates the psuedoscientific rules it set up at multiple junctures. At the very least, it has a "killing your own father" paradox that's injected right into the ending.

And that's ignoring that the supposed redemption - Booker dying so Comstock doesn't exist - very likely caused the non-existence (and therefore death) than of more people than Comstock's attack on NY could ever have even dreamed of causing. In fact, even if Comstock caused a nuclear winter that eradicated all life in every world he existed except for one universe, he'd have still caused less death than Elizabeth and Booker. 

Mr.House wrote...
Go read the million of ending write ups if you don't understand the ending. Ending makes perfect sense and it is not nonsense, the fact that you don't understand the premise shows me you just don't understand the game. 

Someone's detailed interet treatise on in-game psuedoscience does not illustrate that the ending is "deep". There's a lot to discuss about Bioshock's ending - for example whether the holocaust that Elizabeth and Booker cause is more morally repugnant than what Comstock and Elizabeth would have done or whether Booker is caught in an infinite Groundhog Day loop - but the multiveverse thing isn't. 

Modifié par In Exile, 14 septembre 2013 - 05:43 .

[Star fury]

Bioshock Infinite is overrated, it's a great game for one playthrough. It has a good story that gets annoyingly interrupted with a mediocre and tedious combat. It's story and ending are miles better than ME3 endings, but you can say that about almost everything.

But Bioware can learn a lot from Ken Levine about logic, closure, explanations without DLC, generally avoiding deus ex machina.

[Zu Long]

Deflagratio wrote...

Zu Long wrote...

Deflagratio wrote...

Calling the Bioshock: Infinite ending a "Cluster****" is a failure of reason. Maybe you think it's good, maybe you think it's bad, but it's the exact opposite of a "Cluster***" it actually ties the rest of the game (Which is a Cluster****) back together. If you have any questions lingering, I'll be happy to answer the to the best of my ability.

Calling it a cluster**** is the expression of my opinion, not a failure of anything. I have no questions.

Well, before I can refute or support your claim, I need to know what you define as a "Cluster****" .

If we have the same definition, I can objectively disprove the premise in which your opinion is founded, making it a failure of reason as there would be no rationality to reconcile the opinion with.

Well, seeing as I do not need your support, and have no interest in seeing you trying to "objectively" prove my opinion wrong, I have no reason to provide you a definition, do I?

[Deflagratio]

In Exile wrote...

It's a failure of reason because it violates the psuedoscientific rules it set up at multiple junctures. At the very least, it has a "killing your own father" paradox that's injected right into the ending.

The Paradox is resolved by the realization that it isn't time travel. The game doesn't even subtly imply the fact that it's a multiple-universe theory of which all possibilities exist at all times and occur simultanously. Elizabeth isn't killing Comstock, she's breaking off a strand from the possibility space effectively negating every universe in which Comstock existed. Remember, because every single instance of Elizabeth is spread across two universes, she actually exists within the area between that the game refers to as the "Possibility Space". The Lutece Twins also exist in this realm.

It is psuedoscience but it doesn't violate itself near as I can tell.

In Exile wrote...
And that's ignoring that the supposed redemption - Booker dying so Comstock doesn't exist - very likely caused the non-existence (and therefore death) than of more people than Comstock's attack on NY could ever have even dreamed of causing. In fact, even if Comstock caused a nuclear winter that eradicated all life in every world he existed except for one universe, he'd have still caused less death than Elizabeth and Booker.

First off, Booker doesn't die, Elizabeth does, while all of the Comstock universe just doesn't exist. (Comstock, Lady Comstock, Rosalind Lutece), while Booker and Anna still exist before the junction of possibility happened. In the End Credits scene, you can piece together the rest of the story from Details in Bookers office. The debate on if Anna still exists is arguably open for debate, but Booker's survival and existence is not. As for the mass casualties inflicted by essentially snuffing out parallel universes, that's a bit beyond contemplation at this point in our understanding of the theories that lend some credence to "Multiverse" existences. Is the idea of an unconcieved child a murder? Can nonexistence be deemed criminal?

Zu Long wrote...

Deflagratio wrote...

Zu Long wrote...

Deflagratio wrote...

Calling
the Bioshock: Infinite ending a "Cluster****" is a failure of reason.
Maybe you think it's good, maybe you think it's bad, but it's the exact
opposite of a "Cluster***" it actually ties the rest of the game (Which
is a Cluster****) back together. If you have any questions lingering,
I'll be happy to answer the to the best of my ability.

Calling it a cluster**** is the expression of my opinion, not a failure of anything. I have no questions.

Well, before I can refute or support your claim, I need to know what you define as a "Cluster****" .

If
we have the same definition, I can objectively disprove the premise in
which your opinion is founded, making it a failure of reason as there
would be no rationality to reconcile the opinion with.

Well,
seeing as I do not need your support, and have no interest in seeing
you trying to "objectively" prove my opinion wrong, I have no reason to
provide you a definition, do I?

I'm sorry you don't value your own opinion enough to defend it. And let's be clear, an opinion cannot be proven wrong, but the premises on which it is founded most certainly can be, which is why your definition of what is a "Cluster****" is important in this context.

Modifié par Deflagratio, 14 septembre 2013 - 06:08 .

[VampireSoap]

I'm sorry...but can you guys not focus so much on Bioshock Infinite's story? Yes, it's kinda relevant to the title, but come on, you all know what I asked for.

[SlottsMachine]

VampireSoap wrote...

I'm sorry...but can you guys not focus so much on Bioshock Infinite's story? Yes, it's kinda relevant to the title, but come on, you all know what I asked for.

Haha. Isn't this exactly what you asked for?

An ambitious game that fails on many levels, is still a failure. Not much of a benchmark.