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[leaguer of one]

Lord Raijin wrote...



As far as Templars and Seekers being the best warriors in Thedas... They didn't seem to be able to end the blight. It was the Grey wardens that did.

And with the grey wardens, qunari, dwarves, dragon hunters, and Chevaliers about they're clearly not.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

TheKomandorShepard wrote...

leaguer of one wrote...
 Mage on the other hand can take on armies with just a hand full an heal countless people. Mages were the only thing that stopped the qunari from over running thades.
Mages are 1000 times more valuble then Templars in a war and yet your saying nations will side with the templars who can't go a month with out expensive lyrium?

nope mages are weak ignoring how much sometimes lore try convince to the contrary ,mages are kicked by everyone.Perhaps blood mages have more power and well abominations but mage is weak.Mages have massive disadvantage they are ticking time bomb and beside healing they can't offer much so mages advantages<<<<disadvantages .

Mages are the easiest class to break in DA:O. Your argument against them being powerful is that the lore is incorrect? Never mind that you offer no evidence.

[The Hierophant]

leaguer of one wrote...

Mages are 1000 times more valuble then Templars in a war and yet your saying nations will side with the templars who can't go a month with out expensive lyrium?

You do know that if mages are employed in warfare amongst the human kingdoms or Qunari that the value of a templar will rise especially as a guard for the nobility and monarchy against magic, despite their maintenance.

[Master Warder Z_]

leaguer of one wrote...

Master Warder Z wrote...

leaguer of one wrote...

Master Warder Z wrote...

 This seems like another after war thought personally; The Templars and Therefore the Seekers controlling the Templars are meeting the former remenants of the Circle in battle.

Once that has ended we can see where they go from there; After the dust has settled the Seekers very well might continued to ignore the Wardens or engage them.

However Mages within the Wardens are a rarity to begin with according to the Wardens themselves and therefore i can see the Wardens solving this issue by merely turning over the Wardens if their political position aka their neutrality is threatened by not doing so.

The Wardens do not want to be ejected from a Nation; I doubt they would be pleased with the Ultimatium of "Give us the Mages or get out" But i do believe their choice would be to remain and go with out mages.

First of all, Mage are a need resorce with their attack and healing abilities, no way an armed force would ever give up people as valuible as mages.
Second, the templar no longer work or have athority of the chantry. They have nothing back anything they say because they are renagades. Even the seekers are not longer with the chantry but a few. And they don't have a country backing them.

If the templars try to attack the mages of the grey wardens, they will be demolished with no punishment going to the gray wardens.

Incorrect and biased assumption to boot.

One we do not know the state of the Chantry involvement with both factions to this moment we all know that Lambert disolved the accord that allowed the chantry to direct the Seekers and thus the Templars.

They very well could have positions of support coming from the chantry that share their view; After all the new Divine isn't exactly popular even among her own order so i think its a bit premature to judge the entire chantry to be unsupportive to the very faction they have been assisting and directing for only a thousand years.

Two.

The Templars are they stand now are a viable Nation in their own right, Not counting the Red Templars and Lamber's gathering of Knight Commanders and thus all the resources 13 chapters of templars will bring to the table you have thousands if not tens of thousands of warriors in this gathering.

You have enough to march upon any Gray Warden Stronghold in Thedas and win through sheer numeric might.

Thirdly again assumption The Templars had immense political power within Kirkwall and who is to say that this isn't the case elsewhere? Once the Chantry fragmented with the disolving of the Accord and the Mage Templar war you likely would see Nations that were once impartial to the chantry and thus the Templars having them used as a Martial Force because they already exist as an army.

So the Situation while far from clear or known as i see it the Templars hold the aces when  dealing with a much smaller, much more disaproved of group such as the Wardens.

Your basically comparing a relic that most Nations, Nobles and Scholars agree no longer has purpose except every few centuries and the balwark against Magic and the Common Man.

If Nations had to choose between the two?

The choice is pretty clear.

"Incorrect and biased assumption to boot.

One we do not know the state of the Chantry involvement with both factions to this moment we all know that Lambert disolved the accord that allowed the chantry to direct the Seekers and thus the Templars.

They very well could have positions of support coming from the chantry that share their view; After all the new Divine isn't exactly popular even among her own order so i think its a bit premature to judge the entire chantry to be unsupportive to the very faction they have been assisting and directing for only a thousand years."

Wrong. We do. Cassandra in DA2 makes it clear. It' s a mess and survirly divided. DA:Asunders makes it even more clear that most of the templars are not with the chantry.

"The Templars are they stand now are a viable Nation in their own right, Not counting the Red Templars and Lamber's gathering of Knight Commanders and thus all the resources 13 chapters of templars will bring to the table you have thousands if not tens of thousands of warriors in this gathering."

Wrong again. As great as the templar are they are not at a might of a nation. These are groups made to guard circles and even then they have a huge risk a resource. They need lyrium and only the chantry were suppling them and finacing them. They can do long term war with out the chantry.

"You have enough to march upon any Gray Warden Stronghold in Thedas and win through sheer numeric might."

Play the dlc "Wardens keep" and say that agein. The wardens held back an army for months. And that was just 20 men.


"Thirdly again assumption The Templars had immense political power within Kirkwall and who is to say that this isn't the case elsewhere? Once the Chantry fragmented with the disolving of the Accord and the Mage Templar war you likely would see Nations that were once impartial to the chantry and thus the Templars having them used as a Martial Force because they already exist as an army."

They only had it because the chantry wanted them to have it. They only got it because the prievious ruler of kirkwall attacked them out of Parinoia anf the templars won out in the fight. That does not mean templars have political power. In normal cases the templars do not get involved in the matters of the state. The templars of kirkwall were only allow political control because the chantry wanted them to hold it.

No nation is going to side with the templars. They are not as great warriors as you think. They take up too much resource to mantain with their need of lyrium to even function. With out lyrium templar are out by a month. Mage on the other hand can take on armies with just a hand full an heal countless people. Mages were the only thing that stopped the qunari from over running thades.
Mages are 1000 times more valuble then Templars in a war and yet your saying nations will side with the templars who can't go a month with out expensive lyrium?

This seems to have devolved into " He said she said" Relatively quickly.

*Sigh* If you want my opinion? Debate is fine but if alternative speculation and notions offend you, you may wish to avoid it.

The Templars and Chantry situation is hinted upon but you were outright denying that they no longer had Chantry resources; That is hard to believe considering that i do believe the Chantry split along with the Order and Seekers. After all as i said the Divine is hardly popular even in Orlais, Pro Mage sentiment at the Highest level of Office isn't exactly liked among the Templars.

I am saying that the Templars public opinion is far better then that of the Wardens; The Nobility in most cases looks upon them favorably and respectfully and that is much less then the Wardens outside the Anderfels where they are primarily tolerated mainly due to them having major political power there.

And who are you to speak for the Nations of Thedas? In this war that has broken out you don't believe the sitting Governments will see the mages as a threat? You don't think they will back the defenders of the common people against Magic? I can see massive support for the Templars and relatively little going to the Wardens as they are politically neutral in all matters of state.

Therefore its an easy assumption to state that the Nations of Thedas would place more import upon the Templars then a bunch of political neutral warriors during the course of this incident. So if the situation i stated came to pass it easy to see how the local nobility would outright support the move merely to keep the Templar presence in the area.

So you have the Templars having the Wealth of Nations and Nobility supporting them, Supplying them and the intent to keep them around to protect them from the Mages, as far as i am aware no Nation thus far as has declared to side with the Mages in DA:I That would indicate at least to me that on the Political spectrum the Templars appear to be the more preferable choice.

And if they are the more preferable choice then you see the overtures going to maintain them, You see the resources and numbers needed to protect them from the dangers of Magic going to them. Their numbers likely would swell even larger, Cullen was complaining that the Templars had difficulty recuirting prior to the Kirkwall Rebellion i doubt that is the case any longer.

So Yes you have the Wardens, Small Politically Neutral groups spread across Thedas who exist at the grace of their various states and then you have the Templars. The Large popular and former chantry supported movement although i would still maintain that regionally the opinions on Templars would differ with the Cleric in charge, If they supported the ideals of Lambert no doubt they would condemn the Divine while phraising the Templars.

It depends upon a number of factors but even so i see the Templars as a far superior force then the Wardens, Even in their current condition.

In fact i would go so far as to state the Templars are entering a stage of power they have no seen since the last Exalted March.

[Palidane]

I would like to point out that the Chantry holds the Grey Wardens in great esteem, even claiming they are chosen by the Maker. The Prophet Andraste herself said "The Maker smiles on his Grey Wardens, for their's is the ultimate sacrifice". So yeah, I wouldn't expect too much help from the Orthodox Chantry.

Also, I had to laugh at the thought of taking Weisshaupt. Weisshaupt is the headquarters of the Grey Wardens, and they have 1000 Wardens stationed there and in the rest of the Anderfels. I almost can't imagine the amount of force it would take to bring that place down.

Assuming you even got to Weisshaupt, of course. The Grey Wardens are extremely tight with the Anders, and I don't think the King will take kindly to an army of heretics marching through his domain.

[TheKomandorShepard]

[quote]Lord Raijin wrote...

[/quote]

The Templars abilitites may distrupt the Grey wardens mages but that doesn't permanately disenage a mage from recovering, and retailating back by using power spells to use against them. Templars actually fear mages... which is why they want to control them. An experienced mage is far more powerful than a unit of Templars.

Look at what happen at the circle tower. The Templars there could not even stop 1 Senior mage.

As far as Templars and Seekers being the best warriors in Thedas... They didn't seem to be able to end the blight. It was the Grey wardens that did.
[/quote]

In tower they couldn't stop uldred because he become pride demon. and templars crushed mages rebelion at first very quickly.

Because blight can be stoped only by warden not because they are best fighters only because they can kill archdemon even Riordan tell us if being good fighter was enough normal well-trained warrior would be good to do that.

[Master Warder Z_]

Lord Raijin wrote...

Master Warder Z wrote...

Lord Raijin wrote...

As far as Templars trying to pick a fight against the non corrupted mage Grey wardens would most treat it as an act of war, and will probably retaliate.

Templars are use to dealing with Blood mages and Grey Wardens are use to dealing with darkspawn which includes one of the toughest ones,an Ogre. They use to dealing with tough combat. Templars would be too easy to beat.

Gray Warden Mage Spells can still be disrupted by Templar abilities. Also do not forget Templars and Seekers are by far some of the best warriors in Thedas i do believe you overestimate the Wardens ever so slightly.

Not to mention even on a regional level there are great many more Templars then there are Wardens.

The Templars abilitites may distrupt the Grey wardens mages but that doesn't permanately disenage a mage from recovering, and retailating back by using power spells to use against them. Templars actually fear mages... which is why they want to control them. An experienced mage is far more powerful than a unit of Templars.

Look at what happen at the circle tower. The Templars there could not even stop 1 Senior mage.

As far as Templars and Seekers being the best warriors in Thedas... They didn't seem to be able to end the blight. It was the Grey wardens that did.

Spell check is your freind i suggest using it if you wish to debate.

Moving on to the agruments themselves.

Debatable considering if one mage is engaging multiple templars then their Magic is all but useless and they would be hacked down before their Magical abilities returned.

You speak as if the Contingent of one circle Tower is the entire might of the Templar Order apparently. And even the Knight Commander stated they were unprepared for the might of the Demonic Horde, This is espeically turn considering that you had multiple Templars going with the Mages to ostogar so their ranks were far from complete to begin with.

That said you do see Abomination corpses through out the Tower along with Templar one's despite being unprepared it didn't stop them from slaughtering a score of abominations.

And finally.

That was mainly due to a Gray Warden being needed to end the Blight.

Its an ability after all, And the Templars lack it.

[leaguer of one]

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...

TheKomandorShepard wrote...

leaguer of one wrote...
 Mage on the other hand can take on armies with just a hand full an heal countless people. Mages were the only thing that stopped the qunari from over running thades.
Mages are 1000 times more valuble then Templars in a war and yet your saying nations will side with the templars who can't go a month with out expensive lyrium?

nope mages are weak ignoring how much sometimes lore try convince to the contrary ,mages are kicked by everyone.Perhaps blood mages have more power and well abominations but mage is weak.Mages have massive disadvantage they are ticking time bomb and beside healing they can't offer much so mages advantages<<<<disadvantages .

Mages are the easiest class to break in DA:O. You're argument against them being powerful is that the lore is incorrect? Never mind that you offer no evidence.

Wrong. Mages are the most frigil. They still are the most powerful. You just have to ambush them or fight them indirectly. Give time a mage will destroy everyone on the field.

[Lord Raijin]

Grey Warden mages should not to be mistaken as weak and inexperienced. It takes a great deal of will power to be able to survive as a Warden. Theirs no such thing as a weak warrior or mage in the Grey. Far too many of the recruiters wand up failing their joining, and die. Those who freak out therefor showing their weakness wand up getting a sword to the gut.

Being a Grey warden is serious business.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

leaguer of one wrote...

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...

TheKomandorShepard wrote...

leaguer of one wrote...
 Mage on the other hand can take on armies with just a hand full an heal countless people. Mages were the only thing that stopped the qunari from over running thades.
Mages are 1000 times more valuble then Templars in a war and yet your saying nations will side with the templars who can't go a month with out expensive lyrium?

nope mages are weak ignoring how much sometimes lore try convince to the contrary ,mages are kicked by everyone.Perhaps blood mages have more power and well abominations but mage is weak.Mages have massive disadvantage they are ticking time bomb and beside healing they can't offer much so mages advantages<<<<disadvantages .

Mages are the easiest class to break in DA:O. You're argument against them being powerful is that the lore is incorrect? Never mind that you offer no evidence.

Wrong. Mages are the most frigil. They still are the most powerful. You just have to ambush them or fight them indirectly. Give time a mage will destroy everyone on the field.

Are we using the same definition of break?

[TheKomandorShepard]

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...

TheKomandorShepard wrote...

leaguer of one wrote...
 Mage on the other hand can take on armies with just a hand full an heal countless people. Mages were the only thing that stopped the qunari from over running thades.
Mages are 1000 times more valuble then Templars in a war and yet your saying nations will side with the templars who can't go a month with out expensive lyrium?

nope mages are weak ignoring how much sometimes lore try convince to the contrary ,mages are kicked by everyone.Perhaps blood mages have more power and well abominations but mage is weak.Mages have massive disadvantage they are ticking time bomb and beside healing they can't offer much so mages advantages<<<<disadvantages .

Mages are the easiest class to break in DA:O. You're argument against them being powerful is that the lore is incorrect? Never mind that you offer no evidence.

lol you mistaken gameplay and actually events if we take gameplay many our skills for non mages become ridiculous like stunning by scream. Mages ends their ass wiping the floor mostly unless they will take blood magic or abomnation at best we seen mage throwing fireball and take that most mages are nothing more than civilians without any battle training.Dawn of the seeker , redemption and da 2 are examples of this so. only for time to time somewhere shows how mages are powerful just to see one being defeated few second later.

[leaguer of one]

Master Warder Z wrote...

Lord Raijin wrote...

Master Warder Z wrote...

Lord Raijin wrote...

As far as Templars trying to pick a fight against the non corrupted mage Grey wardens would most treat it as an act of war, and will probably retaliate.

Templars are use to dealing with Blood mages and Grey Wardens are use to dealing with darkspawn which includes one of the toughest ones,an Ogre. They use to dealing with tough combat. Templars would be too easy to beat.

Gray Warden Mage Spells can still be disrupted by Templar abilities. Also do not forget Templars and Seekers are by far some of the best warriors in Thedas i do believe you overestimate the Wardens ever so slightly.

Not to mention even on a regional level there are great many more Templars then there are Wardens.

The Templars abilitites may distrupt the Grey wardens mages but that doesn't permanately disenage a mage from recovering, and retailating back by using power spells to use against them. Templars actually fear mages... which is why they want to control them. An experienced mage is far more powerful than a unit of Templars.

Look at what happen at the circle tower. The Templars there could not even stop 1 Senior mage.

As far as Templars and Seekers being the best warriors in Thedas... They didn't seem to be able to end the blight. It was the Grey wardens that did.

Spell check is your freind i suggest using it if you wish to debate.

Moving on to the agruments themselves.

Debatable considering if one mage is engaging multiple templars then their Magic is all but useless and they would be hacked down before their Magical abilities returned.

You speak as if the Contingent of one circle Tower is the entire might of the Templar Order apparently. And even the Knight Commander stated they were unprepared for the might of the Demonic Horde, This is espeically turn considering that you had multiple Templars going with the Mages to ostogar so their ranks were far from complete to begin with.

That said you do see Abomination corpses through out the Tower along with Templar one's despite being unprepared it didn't stop them from slaughtering a score of abominations.

And finally.

That was mainly due to a Gray Warden being needed to end the Blight.

Its an ability after all, And the Templars lack it.

"Debatable considering if one mage is engaging multiple templars then their Magic is all but useless and they would be hacked down before their Magical abilities returned."
That's an issue of who draws first. If a mage attacks  with ice cone first, the templars will never reach the mage.

"You speak as if the Contingent of one circle Tower is the entire might of the Templar Order apparently. And even the Knight Commander stated they were unprepared for the might of the Demonic Horde, This is espeically turn considering that you had multiple Templars going with the Mages to ostogar so their ranks were far from complete to begin with."

Very few templar were in ostogar and their were not any dead Abomination in the tower before we got there. They died after a warden came.

"That was mainly due to a Gray Warden being needed to end the Blight."
No it's not just that. Being a warden also means you resist the blight sickness and sense darkspawn. You are also so missing on the details of the ability and skill need to even get to the archdemon.

[leaguer of one]

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...

leaguer of one wrote...

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...

TheKomandorShepard wrote...

leaguer of one wrote...
 Mage on the other hand can take on armies with just a hand full an heal countless people. Mages were the only thing that stopped the qunari from over running thades.
Mages are 1000 times more valuble then Templars in a war and yet your saying nations will side with the templars who can't go a month with out expensive lyrium?

nope mages are weak ignoring how much sometimes lore try convince to the contrary ,mages are kicked by everyone.Perhaps blood mages have more power and well abominations but mage is weak.Mages have massive disadvantage they are ticking time bomb and beside healing they can't offer much so mages advantages<<<<disadvantages .

Mages are the easiest class to break in DA:O. You're argument against them being powerful is that the lore is incorrect? Never mind that you offer no evidence.

Wrong. Mages are the most frigil. They still are the most powerful. You just have to ambush them or fight them indirectly. Give time a mage will destroy everyone on the field.

Are we using the same definition of break?

Oh... Sorry. We are not.

[Master Warder Z_]

Palidane wrote...

I would like to point out that the Chantry holds the Grey Wardens in great esteem, even claiming they are chosen by the Maker. The Prophet Andraste herself said "The Maker smiles on his Grey Wardens, for their's is the ultimate sacrifice". So yeah, I wouldn't expect too much help from the Orthodox Chantry.

Also, I had to laugh at the thought of taking Weisshaupt. Weisshaupt is the headquarters of the Grey Wardens, and they have 1000 Wardens stationed there and in the rest of the Anderfels. I almost can't imagine the amount of force it would take to bring that place down.

Assuming you even got to Weisshaupt, of course. The Grey Wardens are extremely tight with the Anders, and I don't think the King will take kindly to an army of heretics marching through his domain.

Would you mind providing a source of that canticle please?

I really thought i knew the Stanza of the Maker front to back.

That said Taking the fortress of the great Weisshaupt is far from invincible considering the First Warden is content to Play Politician and make himself rich rather then directing the Order. According to some sources its even go so far as to become a shell of its former Glory, Housing only a small contingent of a few hundred. Also you need to consider Broken Tooth is completely barren, The Wardens likely require immense supply trains to keep the fortress stocked with the provinces needed to maintain it.

If it fell to a siege situation the Templars win merely by disrupting that, It would be a repeat of Wardens Keep once more.

And the King of the Ander's is immensely weak politically the Wardens basically run the Nation but then you need to consider the extreme poverty of the Nation. You likely would see them forming a small military to meet the Templars and that would be their final gesture.

Overall the task is difficult but hardly impossible.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

TheKomandorShepard wrote...

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...

TheKomandorShepard wrote...

leaguer of one wrote...
 Mage on the other hand can take on armies with just a hand full an heal countless people. Mages were the only thing that stopped the qunari from over running thades.
Mages are 1000 times more valuble then Templars in a war and yet your saying nations will side with the templars who can't go a month with out expensive lyrium?

nope mages are weak ignoring how much sometimes lore try convince to the contrary ,mages are kicked by everyone.Perhaps blood mages have more power and well abominations but mage is weak.Mages have massive disadvantage they are ticking time bomb and beside healing they can't offer much so mages advantages<<<<disadvantages .

Mages are the easiest class to break in DA:O. You're argument against them being powerful is that the lore is incorrect? Never mind that you offer no evidence.

lol you mistaken gameplay and actually events if we take gameplay many our skills for non mages become ridiculous like stunning by scream. Mages ends their ass wiping the floor mostly unless they will take blood magic or abomnation at best we seen mage throwing fireball and take that most mages are nothing more than civilians without any battle training.Dawn of the seeker , redemption and da 2 are examples of this so. only for time to time somewhere shows how mages are powerful just to see one being defeated few second later.

Could you please put this in a comprehensible format?

Edit: Never mind, I think I have this. What you're missing is that mages are shown as powerful and dangerous in both the lore and the gameplay. Cassandra, Hawke, and the Warden handle them easily due to being main characters. Everyone else? Let's just say there's a reason nothing you can do short of handling Connor's army yourself can save Redcliffe.

Modifié par Riverdaleswhiteflash, 14 septembre 2013 - 11:31 .

[leaguer of one]

TheKomandorShepard wrote...

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...

TheKomandorShepard wrote...

leaguer of one wrote...
 Mage on the other hand can take on armies with just a hand full an heal countless people. Mages were the only thing that stopped the qunari from over running thades.
Mages are 1000 times more valuble then Templars in a war and yet your saying nations will side with the templars who can't go a month with out expensive lyrium?

nope mages are weak ignoring how much sometimes lore try convince to the contrary ,mages are kicked by everyone.Perhaps blood mages have more power and well abominations but mage is weak.Mages have massive disadvantage they are ticking time bomb and beside healing they can't offer much so mages advantages<<<<disadvantages .

Mages are the easiest class to break in DA:O. You're argument against them being powerful is that the lore is incorrect? Never mind that you offer no evidence.

lol you mistaken gameplay and actually events if we take gameplay many our skills for non mages become ridiculous like stunning by scream. Mages ends their ass wiping the floor mostly unless they will take blood magic or abomnation at best we seen mage throwing fireball and take that most mages are nothing more than civilians without any battle training.Dawn of the seeker , redemption and da 2 are examples of this so. only for time to time somewhere shows how mages are powerful just to see one being defeated few second later.

Those are just mages who are not use to battle. Magic does not equal instant winning. The enchanters, though, lore wise and game wise, are devistating.

[Lord Raijin]

Master Warder Z wrote...

Spell check is your freind i suggest using it if you wish to debate.

Moving on to the agruments themselves.

Debatable considering if one mage is engaging multiple templars then their Magic is all but useless and they would be hacked down before their Magical abilities returned.

You speak as if the Contingent of one circle Tower is the entire might of the Templar Order apparently. And even the Knight Commander stated they were unprepared for the might of the Demonic Horde, This is espeically turn considering that you had multiple Templars going with the Mages to ostogar so their ranks were far from complete to begin with.

That said you do see Abomination corpses through out the Tower along with Templar one's despite being unprepared it didn't stop them from slaughtering a score of abominations.

And finally.

That was mainly due to a Gray Warden being needed to end the Blight.

Its an ability after all, And the Templars lack it.

Those who live in glass houses should not be throwing stones, my deal friend. Don't preach to me about using spell check when you could use it yourself. Don't act as if you're a master of the English language when it's quite obvious by your ridiculous post that your English skill is an obvious fail.

Modifié par Lord Raijin, 14 septembre 2013 - 11:23 .

[TheKomandorShepard]

leaguer of one wrote...

TheKomandorShepard wrote...

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...

TheKomandorShepard wrote...

leaguer of one wrote...
 Mage on the other hand can take on armies with just a hand full an heal countless people. Mages were the only thing that stopped the qunari from over running thades.
Mages are 1000 times more valuble then Templars in a war and yet your saying nations will side with the templars who can't go a month with out expensive lyrium?

nope mages are weak ignoring how much sometimes lore try convince to the contrary ,mages are kicked by everyone.Perhaps blood mages have more power and well abominations but mage is weak.Mages have massive disadvantage they are ticking time bomb and beside healing they can't offer much so mages advantages<<<<disadvantages .

Mages are the easiest class to break in DA:O. You're argument against them being powerful is that the lore is incorrect? Never mind that you offer no evidence.

lol you mistaken gameplay and actually events if we take gameplay many our skills for non mages become ridiculous like stunning by scream. Mages ends their ass wiping the floor mostly unless they will take blood magic or abomnation at best we seen mage throwing fireball and take that most mages are nothing more than civilians without any battle training.Dawn of the seeker , redemption and da 2 are examples of this so. only for time to time somewhere shows how mages are powerful just to see one being defeated few second later.

Those are just mages who are not use to battle. Magic does not equal instant winning. The enchanters, though, lore wise and game wise, are devistating.

yeah orsino toughest guy in circle and managed kill only few qunari before he escaped and well high-ranked mage in first game couldn't handle few spiders and he hire our mage pc to handle them.

[Master Warder Z_]

Lord Raijin wrote...

Master Warder Z wrote...

Spell check is your freind i suggest using it if you wish to debate.

Moving on to the agruments themselves.

Debatable considering if one mage is engaging multiple templars then their Magic is all but useless and they would be hacked down before their Magical abilities returned.

You speak as if the Contingent of one circle Tower is the entire might of the Templar Order apparently. And even the Knight Commander stated they were unprepared for the might of the Demonic Horde, This is espeically turn considering that you had multiple Templars going with the Mages to ostogar so their ranks were far from complete to begin with.

That said you do see Abomination corpses through out the Tower along with Templar one's despite being unprepared it didn't stop them from slaughtering a score of abominations.

And finally.

That was mainly due to a Gray Warden being needed to end the Blight.

Its an ability after all, And the Templars lack it.

Those who live in glass houses should not be throwing stones, my deal friend. Don't preach to me about using spell check when you could use it yourself. Don't act as if you're a master of the English language when it's quite obvious by your ridiculous post that your English skill is an obvious fail.

 If only my Broswer software allowed it to be used in the Full post feature of the Forum.

And you call it Ridicious rather then counter it?

You call it a failure rather then countering it?

It seems you are content to insult it and me but not do anything to disprove it.

[Huge_Beaver]

I think we're supposed to see the sane part of the Templars in DAI so the regular Templars probably wouldn't. Too wreckless and stupid, the Grey Wardens isn't weak so they would be able to stand up to them with the help of mages I think.

[Lord Raijin]

Master Warder Z wrote...

 If only my Broswer software allowed it to be used in the Full post feature of the Forum.

And you call it Ridicious rather then counter it?

You call it a failure rather then countering it?

It seems you are content to insult it and me but not do anything to disprove it.

I'm not amused.

[TheKomandorShepard]

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...

TheKomandorShepard wrote...

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...

TheKomandorShepard wrote...

leaguer of one wrote...
 Mage on the other hand can take on armies with just a hand full an heal countless people. Mages were the only thing that stopped the qunari from over running thades.
Mages are 1000 times more valuble then Templars in a war and yet your saying nations will side with the templars who can't go a month with out expensive lyrium?

nope mages are weak ignoring how much sometimes lore try convince to the contrary ,mages are kicked by everyone.Perhaps blood mages have more power and well abominations but mage is weak.Mages have massive disadvantage they are ticking time bomb and beside healing they can't offer much so mages advantages<<<<disadvantages .

Mages are the easiest class to break in DA:O. You're argument against them being powerful is that the lore is incorrect? Never mind that you offer no evidence.

lol you mistaken gameplay and actually events if we take gameplay many our skills for non mages become ridiculous like stunning by scream. Mages ends their ass wiping the floor mostly unless they will take blood magic or abomnation at best we seen mage throwing fireball and take that most mages are nothing more than civilians without any battle training.Dawn of the seeker , redemption and da 2 are examples of this so. only for time to time somewhere shows how mages are powerful just to see one being defeated few second later.

Could you please put this in a comprehensible format?

I mean that mages are not very powerful even comparing to their disadvantages useless beyond their healing which still is heavy limited. Mages are kicked by most peoples in series like da 2 , da redemption ,and dawn of the seeker.Sometimes lore will tell us that mages are powerful just that we meet one who is smashed. For more you need read previous comment im too lazy.

[Master Warder Z_]

leaguer of one wrote...

Master Warder Z wrote...

Lord Raijin wrote...

Master Warder Z wrote...

Lord Raijin wrote...

As far as Templars trying to pick a fight against the non corrupted mage Grey wardens would most treat it as an act of war, and will probably retaliate.

Templars are use to dealing with Blood mages and Grey Wardens are use to dealing with darkspawn which includes one of the toughest ones,an Ogre. They use to dealing with tough combat. Templars would be too easy to beat.

Gray Warden Mage Spells can still be disrupted by Templar abilities. Also do not forget Templars and Seekers are by far some of the best warriors in Thedas i do believe you overestimate the Wardens ever so slightly.

Not to mention even on a regional level there are great many more Templars then there are Wardens.

The Templars abilitites may distrupt the Grey wardens mages but that doesn't permanately disenage a mage from recovering, and retailating back by using power spells to use against them. Templars actually fear mages... which is why they want to control them. An experienced mage is far more powerful than a unit of Templars.

Look at what happen at the circle tower. The Templars there could not even stop 1 Senior mage.

As far as Templars and Seekers being the best warriors in Thedas... They didn't seem to be able to end the blight. It was the Grey wardens that did.

Spell check is your freind i suggest using it if you wish to debate.

Moving on to the agruments themselves.

Debatable considering if one mage is engaging multiple templars then their Magic is all but useless and they would be hacked down before their Magical abilities returned.

You speak as if the Contingent of one circle Tower is the entire might of the Templar Order apparently. And even the Knight Commander stated they were unprepared for the might of the Demonic Horde, This is espeically turn considering that you had multiple Templars going with the Mages to ostogar so their ranks were far from complete to begin with.

That said you do see Abomination corpses through out the Tower along with Templar one's despite being unprepared it didn't stop them from slaughtering a score of abominations.

And finally.

That was mainly due to a Gray Warden being needed to end the Blight.

Its an ability after all, And the Templars lack it.

"Debatable considering if one mage is engaging multiple templars then their Magic is all but useless and they would be hacked down before their Magical abilities returned."
That's an issue of who draws first. If a mage attacks  with ice cone first, the templars will never reach the mage.

"You speak as if the Contingent of one circle Tower is the entire might of the Templar Order apparently. And even the Knight Commander stated they were unprepared for the might of the Demonic Horde, This is espeically turn considering that you had multiple Templars going with the Mages to ostogar so their ranks were far from complete to begin with."

Very few templar were in ostogar and their were not any dead Abomination in the tower before we got there. They died after a warden came.

"That was mainly due to a Gray Warden being needed to end the Blight."
No it's not just that. Being a warden also means you resist the blight sickness and sense darkspawn. You are also so missing on the details of the ability and skill need to even get to the archdemon.

Possibly i suppose but considering the Templars as you put in this situation are an entire unit even if one was frozen you still have the others canceling out their magic so they can be gutted.

You missed all the corpses of Abominations and Demon thrall corpses on the floor in the second and third floor eh? Its easy to miss i suppose but if you noticed only a handful of the thralls rise when you enter the room. The rest are permenantly dead, likely as i suspect by Templar Blades.

And across the Third floor you see Abomination corpses through out the Hall.

That ability really doesn't factor into them combating each other though does it? Its not like the Templars house the Archdemon and its not like the Gray Wardens turn people into Ghouls merely by being around them.

[leaguer of one]

Master Warder Z wrote...



This seems to have devolved into " He said she said" Relatively quickly.

*Sigh* If you want my opinion? Debate is fine but if alternative speculation and notions offend you, you may wish to avoid it.

The Templars and Chantry situation is hinted upon but you were outright denying that they no longer had Chantry resources; That is hard to believe considering that i do believe the Chantry split along with the Order and Seekers. After all as i said the Divine is hardly popular even in Orlais, Pro Mage sentiment at the Highest level of Office isn't exactly liked among the Templars.

I am saying that the Templars public opinion is far better then that of the Wardens; The Nobility in most cases looks upon them favorably and respectfully and that is much less then the Wardens outside the Anderfels where they are primarily tolerated mainly due to them having major political power there.

And who are you to speak for the Nations of Thedas? In this war that has broken out you don't believe the sitting Governments will see the mages as a threat? You don't think they will back the defenders of the common people against Magic? I can see massive support for the Templars and relatively little going to the Wardens as they are politically neutral in all matters of state.

Therefore its an easy assumption to state that the Nations of Thedas would place more import upon the Templars then a bunch of political neutral warriors during the course of this incident. So if the situation i stated came to pass it easy to see how the local nobility would outright support the move merely to keep the Templar presence in the area.

So you have the Templars having the Wealth of Nations and Nobility supporting them, Supplying them and the intent to keep them around to protect them from the Mages, as far as i am aware no Nation thus far as has declared to side with the Mages in DA:I That would indicate at least to me that on the Political spectrum the Templars appear to be the more preferable choice.

And if they are the more preferable choice then you see the overtures going to maintain them, You see the resources and numbers needed to protect them from the dangers of Magic going to them. Their numbers likely would swell even larger, Cullen was complaining that the Templars had difficulty recuirting prior to the Kirkwall Rebellion i doubt that is the case any longer.

So Yes you have the Wardens, Small Politically Neutral groups spread across Thedas who exist at the grace of their various states and then you have the Templars. The Large popular and former chantry supported movement although i would still maintain that regionally the opinions on Templars would differ with the Cleric in charge, If they supported the ideals of Lambert no doubt they would condemn the Divine while phraising the Templars.

It depends upon a number of factors but even so i see the Templars as a far superior force then the Wardens, Even in their current condition.

In fact i would go so far as to state the Templars are entering a stage of power they have no seen since the last Exalted March.

It's not a hint. It a flat out fact. The chantry is shattered. The templars are scattered. And  the mages are rogue.

It a flat out fact with many sorces supporting it.
And public opinion does not matter. It's political opinion that matters. Not leader or lord is ever going to side with the templars knowing the qun is coming and the only thing that stopped them the last time were the mages. Any person with any militaty understanding is going to see the  a group with indivisualls that can take an army each and heal an army each is better then an army with a short battery life. 

You want an army of men who need expensive lyrium every month?

Templars never had the wealth of natons supporting them. The had the wealth of the chantry. The chantry funds them, not the nations. The nation never did and how expensive a templar is to fund, a nation never will.
And for the last time, templars don't have political power. They normaly don't take part in politics. Kirkwall was different. If you read it's history you would know.

Nations are not going to side with the templars on this. Mages are just way too valuble to, espesially with the Qun coming.

[dragonflight288]

RazorrX wrote...

Ser Rylock overstepped her authority though. During the second blight when The Chantry forces turned and aided the Wardens a bond was formed between the two. The Wardens converted to the Chantry (at least superficially) and the Chantry swore to support the Wardens. An agreement was entered that gave the Wardens the right of Conscription and the ROC allows a mage to be taken from the circle to serve the wardens.

Now it is my understanding that a mage is protected from the chantry unless s/he goes nutso, becomes an abomination, leaves the wardens, etc. As long as the mage is in the wardens they are 'free'. IF they leave the wardens they are to turn themselves into the nearest circle, Failing to do that brands them an apostate.

Now the Red Templars may feel that all agreements are nul and void. But the Chantry loyal Templars should be bound to the agreement between the wardens and the chantry.

I'm late in replying to this because I just got off work, and I'm three pages behind, so I hae to catch up a bit, but here I go.

My point was that Ser Rylock overstepped her authority. However, that does not mean she's an isolated case. Wynne talks about how Aneirin was called maleficar and run through, at the age of 14. I can't remember where off the top of my head, but isn't it Chantry law that all apprentices be brought back to the circle? If so, then that is templars abusing authority....granted we only hear it from Wynne. Those templars could've been attacked by the Dalish and simply ran him through and escaped with their lives. They could've been particularly zealous and simply tried to kill him out of a hatred for mages, or they may have been racists and tried to kill him because he's an elf, and then later said it was because he was a maleficar.

The Revered Mother of Redcliff tells a human mage not to worry because she won't raise a lynch mob against him. The fact that she reassures us, quite frankly, implies that the Chantry sometimes does raise lynch mobs and unjustly kill mages.

This doesn't have much to do with the Wardens themselves, but for that we have Ser Rylock saying the Chantry's authority supercedes the crown's [fontcolor=red][/b] but also that of the grey wardens.[/b][fontcolor=black] I only did this quest yesterday, and Ser Rylock specifically says the Chantry's authority.

The implications are not reassuring. They should respect the Grey Wardens neutrality and their right of conscription, but I don't believe it likely. Not with people like Lambert in charge of the Seekers, or Meredith in the templars.