226 réponses à ce sujet

[DarkKnightHolmes]

Templars can't even stop one mage from blowing up the chantry, I doubt they can even beat wet toilet paper.

[leaguer of one]

Master Warder Z wrote...

leaguer of one wrote...

Master Warder Z wrote...

Lord Raijin wrote...

Master Warder Z wrote...

Lord Raijin wrote...

As far as Templars trying to pick a fight against the non corrupted mage Grey wardens would most treat it as an act of war, and will probably retaliate.

Templars are use to dealing with Blood mages and Grey Wardens are use to dealing with darkspawn which includes one of the toughest ones,an Ogre. They use to dealing with tough combat. Templars would be too easy to beat.

Gray Warden Mage Spells can still be disrupted by Templar abilities. Also do not forget Templars and Seekers are by far some of the best warriors in Thedas i do believe you overestimate the Wardens ever so slightly.

Not to mention even on a regional level there are great many more Templars then there are Wardens.

The Templars abilitites may distrupt the Grey wardens mages but that doesn't permanately disenage a mage from recovering, and retailating back by using power spells to use against them. Templars actually fear mages... which is why they want to control them. An experienced mage is far more powerful than a unit of Templars.

Look at what happen at the circle tower. The Templars there could not even stop 1 Senior mage.

As far as Templars and Seekers being the best warriors in Thedas... They didn't seem to be able to end the blight. It was the Grey wardens that did.

Spell check is your freind i suggest using it if you wish to debate.

Moving on to the agruments themselves.

Debatable considering if one mage is engaging multiple templars then their Magic is all but useless and they would be hacked down before their Magical abilities returned.

You speak as if the Contingent of one circle Tower is the entire might of the Templar Order apparently. And even the Knight Commander stated they were unprepared for the might of the Demonic Horde, This is espeically turn considering that you had multiple Templars going with the Mages to ostogar so their ranks were far from complete to begin with.

That said you do see Abomination corpses through out the Tower along with Templar one's despite being unprepared it didn't stop them from slaughtering a score of abominations.

And finally.

That was mainly due to a Gray Warden being needed to end the Blight.

Its an ability after all, And the Templars lack it.

"Debatable considering if one mage is engaging multiple templars then their Magic is all but useless and they would be hacked down before their Magical abilities returned."
That's an issue of who draws first. If a mage attacks  with ice cone first, the templars will never reach the mage.

"You speak as if the Contingent of one circle Tower is the entire might of the Templar Order apparently. And even the Knight Commander stated they were unprepared for the might of the Demonic Horde, This is espeically turn considering that you had multiple Templars going with the Mages to ostogar so their ranks were far from complete to begin with."

Very few templar were in ostogar and their were not any dead Abomination in the tower before we got there. They died after a warden came.

"That was mainly due to a Gray Warden being needed to end the Blight."
No it's not just that. Being a warden also means you resist the blight sickness and sense darkspawn. You are also so missing on the details of the ability and skill need to even get to the archdemon.

Possibly i suppose but considering the Templars as you put in this situation are an entire unit even if one was frozen you still have the others canceling out their magic so they can be gutted.

You missed all the corpses of Abominations and Demon thrall corpses on the floor in the second and third floor eh? Its easy to miss i suppose but if you noticed only a handful of the thralls rise when you enter the room. The rest are permenantly dead, likely as i suspect by Templar Blades.

And across the Third floor you see Abomination corpses through out the Hall.

That ability really doesn't factor into them combating each other though does it? Its not like the Templars house the Archdemon and its not like the Gray Wardens turn people into Ghouls merely by being around them.

1. Ice cone does not freeze one person. It can freeze groups.
2.The majority attack. Very little abombinations are dead.
3.A warden need to have the skill the reach the arch demon to kill it. It not that being a warden make you a superworrior, it's that once you become a warden you need to be a super worrior to servive. The life of a warden make the warden one of the best of worriors not becoming a warden. It's experiance. Even when a blight is not happening waden are fighting darkspawn and becoming better warriors. Templars even when they train just stand around guard mages. They are not battle harden. Greywardens are.
Thats the difference.

[TheKomandorShepard]

DarkKnightHolmes wrote...

Templars can't even stop one mage from blowing up the chantry, I doubt they can even beat wet toilet paper.

yeah they are incompetent but this wasn't their fault because they don't have present security if somone blow up church you can't say that because police is incompetent.

[The Hierophant]

DarkKnightHolmes wrote...

Templars can't even stop one mage from blowing up the chantry, I doubt they can even beat wet toilet paper.

Lol stop trolling.

[DarkKnightHolmes]

The Hierophant wrote...

DarkKnightHolmes wrote...

Templars can't even stop one mage from blowing up the chantry, I doubt they can even beat wet toilet paper.

Lol stop trolling.

Where's the trolling?

[Palidane]

Master Warder Z wrote...

Palidane wrote...

I would like to point out that the Chantry holds the Grey Wardens in great esteem, even claiming they are chosen by the Maker. The Prophet Andraste herself said "The Maker smiles on his Grey Wardens, for their's is the ultimate sacrifice". So yeah, I wouldn't expect too much help from the Orthodox Chantry.

Also, I had to laugh at the thought of taking Weisshaupt. Weisshaupt is the headquarters of the Grey Wardens, and they have 1000 Wardens stationed there and in the rest of the Anderfels. I almost can't imagine the amount of force it would take to bring that place down.

Assuming you even got to Weisshaupt, of course. The Grey Wardens are extremely tight with the Anders, and I don't think the King will take kindly to an army of heretics marching through his domain.

Would you mind providing a source of that canticle please?

I really thought i knew the Stanza of the Maker front to back.

That said Taking the fortress of the great Weisshaupt is far from invincible considering the First Warden is content to Play Politician and make himself rich rather then directing the Order. According to some sources its even go so far as to become a shell of its former Glory, Housing only a small contingent of a few hundred. Also you need to consider Broken Tooth is completely barren, The Wardens likely require immense supply trains to keep the fortress stocked with the provinces needed to maintain it.

If it fell to a siege situation the Templars win merely by disrupting that, It would be a repeat of Wardens Keep once more.

And the King of the Ander's is immensely weak politically the Wardens basically run the Nation but then you need to consider the extreme poverty of the Nation. You likely would see them forming a small military to meet the Templars and that would be their final gesture.

Overall the task is difficult but hardly impossible.

The Canticle is from the World of Thedas Compendium.

The First Warden may be a schemer, but you don't get to be the head of the Grey Wardens through politics. I'd wager he could mess you up in a fight. I'd like you to cite your source on the Warden's numbers, as Riordan himself tells us they're 1000 Wardens in the Anderfels. Keep in mind, "Weisshaupt" is Ander (German) for "white fortress". They call it that because it sits on a mountain of silverite. Darkspawn can't walk within a mile of it with unshod feet. For God's sake, Andorhal himself couldn't crack Weisshaupt.

As for the Anders, they may be poor, but that has nothing to do with their military. The Anderfels lives in a perpetual blight, with marauding Darkspawn constantly roaming the land. Only the largest of cities are free from fear, everywhere else is a valid target. The Anders are a grim, proud, pious, and above all dangerous people. They've remaind unbowed, unbent, and unbroken, sucessfully weathering two direct blights. I imagine a large portion of their population are competent warriors, more than capable of ruining a Templars day. You could send an army marching into the Anderfels, but I doubt you'd be seeing many march back out.

[Lord Raijin]

DarkKnightHolmes wrote...

Templars can't even stop one mage from blowing up the chantry, I doubt they can even beat wet toilet paper.

You can say that again. Not even Cullen and his army of Templars could've stopped Anders from blowing up the Chantry.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

TheKomandorShepard wrote...

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...

TheKomandorShepard wrote...

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...

Mages are the easiest class to break in DA:O. You're argument against them being powerful is that the lore is incorrect? Never mind that you offer no evidence.

lol you mistaken gameplay and actually events if we take gameplay many our skills for non mages become ridiculous like stunning by scream. Mages ends their ass wiping the floor mostly unless they will take blood magic or abomnation at best we seen mage throwing fireball and take that most mages are nothing more than civilians without any battle training.Dawn of the seeker , redemption and da 2 are examples of this so. only for time to time somewhere shows how mages are powerful just to see one being defeated few second later.

Could you please put this in a comprehensible format?

I mean that mages are not very powerful even comparing to their disadvantages useless beyond their healing which still is heavy limited. Mages are kicked by most peoples in series like da 2 , da redemption ,and dawn of the seeker.Sometimes lore will tell us that mages are powerful just that we meet one who is smashed. For more you need read previous comment im too lazy.

Mages are largely kicked by main characters, who clearly follow different rules than ordinary Thedasians. The mages you see dying by Alistair's, Cassandra's, Hawke's, or The Warden's hands? They are powerful enough to obliterate just about anyone else. Aurelius Titus was melting Qunari. Quentin killed a templar personally. Uldred has an army of abominations, where Greagoir states that his men were ready for one or two.

[dragonflight288]

Palidane wrote...

Master Warder Z wrote...

Palidane wrote...

I would like to point out that the Chantry holds the Grey Wardens in great esteem, even claiming they are chosen by the Maker. The Prophet Andraste herself said "The Maker smiles on his Grey Wardens, for their's is the ultimate sacrifice". So yeah, I wouldn't expect too much help from the Orthodox Chantry.

Also, I had to laugh at the thought of taking Weisshaupt. Weisshaupt is the headquarters of the Grey Wardens, and they have 1000 Wardens stationed there and in the rest of the Anderfels. I almost can't imagine the amount of force it would take to bring that place down.

Assuming you even got to Weisshaupt, of course. The Grey Wardens are extremely tight with the Anders, and I don't think the King will take kindly to an army of heretics marching through his domain.

Would you mind providing a source of that canticle please?

I really thought i knew the Stanza of the Maker front to back.

That said Taking the fortress of the great Weisshaupt is far from invincible considering the First Warden is content to Play Politician and make himself rich rather then directing the Order. According to some sources its even go so far as to become a shell of its former Glory, Housing only a small contingent of a few hundred. Also you need to consider Broken Tooth is completely barren, The Wardens likely require immense supply trains to keep the fortress stocked with the provinces needed to maintain it.

If it fell to a siege situation the Templars win merely by disrupting that, It would be a repeat of Wardens Keep once more.

And the King of the Ander's is immensely weak politically the Wardens basically run the Nation but then you need to consider the extreme poverty of the Nation. You likely would see them forming a small military to meet the Templars and that would be their final gesture.

Overall the task is difficult but hardly impossible.

The Canticle is from the World of Thedas Compendium.

The First Warden may be a schemer, but you don't get to be the head of the Grey Wardens through politics. I'd wager he could mess you up in a fight. I'd like you to cite your source on the Warden's numbers, as Riordan himself tells us they're 1000 Wardens in the Anderfels. Keep in mind, "Weisshaupt" is Ander (German) for "white fortress". They call it that because it sits on a mountain of silverite. Darkspawn can't walk within a mile of it with unshod feet. For God's sake, Andorhal himself couldn't crack Weisshaupt.

As for the Anders, they may be poor, but that has nothing to do with their military. The Anderfels lives in a perpetual blight, with marauding Darkspawn constantly roaming the land. Only the largest of cities are free from fear, everywhere else is a valid target. The Anders are a grim, proud, pious, and above all dangerous people. They've remaind unbowed, unbent, and unbroken, sucessfully weathering two direct blights. I imagine a large portion of their population are competent warriors, more than capable of ruining a Templars day. You could send an army marching into the Anderfels, but I doubt you'd be seeing many march back out.

Actually, Riordin says the Anderfels has thousands of Wardens, not merely 1000.

[leaguer of one]

Lord Raijin wrote...

DarkKnightHolmes wrote...

Templars can't even stop one mage from blowing up the chantry, I doubt they can even beat wet toilet paper.

You can say that again. Not even Cullen and his army of Templars could've stopped Anders from blowing up the Chantry.

[The Hierophant]

DarkKnightHolmes wrote...

The Hierophant wrote...

DarkKnightHolmes wrote...

Templars can't even stop one mage from blowing up the chantry, I doubt they can even beat wet toilet paper.

Lol stop trolling.

Where's the trolling?

[Master Warder Z_]

leaguer of one wrote...

Master Warder Z wrote...



This seems to have devolved into " He said she said" Relatively quickly.

*Sigh* If you want my opinion? Debate is fine but if alternative speculation and notions offend you, you may wish to avoid it.

The Templars and Chantry situation is hinted upon but you were outright denying that they no longer had Chantry resources; That is hard to believe considering that i do believe the Chantry split along with the Order and Seekers. After all as i said the Divine is hardly popular even in Orlais, Pro Mage sentiment at the Highest level of Office isn't exactly liked among the Templars.

I am saying that the Templars public opinion is far better then that of the Wardens; The Nobility in most cases looks upon them favorably and respectfully and that is much less then the Wardens outside the Anderfels where they are primarily tolerated mainly due to them having major political power there.

And who are you to speak for the Nations of Thedas? In this war that has broken out you don't believe the sitting Governments will see the mages as a threat? You don't think they will back the defenders of the common people against Magic? I can see massive support for the Templars and relatively little going to the Wardens as they are politically neutral in all matters of state.

Therefore its an easy assumption to state that the Nations of Thedas would place more import upon the Templars then a bunch of political neutral warriors during the course of this incident. So if the situation i stated came to pass it easy to see how the local nobility would outright support the move merely to keep the Templar presence in the area.

So you have the Templars having the Wealth of Nations and Nobility supporting them, Supplying them and the intent to keep them around to protect them from the Mages, as far as i am aware no Nation thus far as has declared to side with the Mages in DA:I That would indicate at least to me that on the Political spectrum the Templars appear to be the more preferable choice.

And if they are the more preferable choice then you see the overtures going to maintain them, You see the resources and numbers needed to protect them from the dangers of Magic going to them. Their numbers likely would swell even larger, Cullen was complaining that the Templars had difficulty recuirting prior to the Kirkwall Rebellion i doubt that is the case any longer.

So Yes you have the Wardens, Small Politically Neutral groups spread across Thedas who exist at the grace of their various states and then you have the Templars. The Large popular and former chantry supported movement although i would still maintain that regionally the opinions on Templars would differ with the Cleric in charge, If they supported the ideals of Lambert no doubt they would condemn the Divine while phraising the Templars.

It depends upon a number of factors but even so i see the Templars as a far superior force then the Wardens, Even in their current condition.

In fact i would go so far as to state the Templars are entering a stage of power they have no seen since the last Exalted March.

It's not a hint. It a flat out fact. The chantry is shattered. The templars are scattered. And  the mages are rogue.

It a flat out fact with many sorces supporting it.
And public opinion does not matter. It's political opinion that matters. Not leader or lord is ever going to side with the templars knowing the qun is coming and the only thing that stopped them the last time were the mages. Any person with any militaty understanding is going to see the  a group with indivisualls that can take an army each and heal an army each is better then an army with a short battery life. 

You want an army of men who need expensive lyrium every month?

Templars never had the wealth of natons supporting them. The had the wealth of the chantry. The chantry funds them, not the nations. The nation never did and how expensive a templar is to fund, a nation never will.
And for the last time, templars don't have political power. They normaly don't take part in politics. Kirkwall was different. If you read it's history you would know.

Nations are not going to side with the templars on this. Mages are just way too valuble to, espesially with the Qun coming.

So you think Local and Regional branches of the Chantry, just flat out broke all contact even if the Divine whom led to this schism ordered it to do so? I don't think the Hardliners would favor the divine personally, I view it much as Pertice said.

Schism is inventiable and i think it has occured; The Templars in my eye likely would have chantry support still just not the chantry the Divine has control of. I am unaware of the extent of this support but again you have possibility of it. The Seeker order and thus the Templars did not abandon the Chantry nor the Maker.

They abandoned the divine, They abandoned the accord allowing the divine to direct them.

And moving on to the other subject.

The Qun is a threat but not anywhere near an Imediate threat after all you have their invasion of Kirkwall and that did not shatter the Peace even when the Arishok was killed and the invasion repulsed. The Free Marches did not declare war upon the Qunari; So Yes you have that political situation ongoing.

Until the Qunari invade again you aren't going to see the support for that stance until it comes to pass, and this is assuming that the Techological gap isn't improved the Qunari were driven by dozens of armies and mages its true but placing the entire success upon the mages when you have Several Exalted Marches? Centuries of Warfare and strife is pure fallacy.

They were a Primary factor certainly but far from the only resource being commited, And That said you are acting as if the circles still exist. the only method to obtain "Healing and etc" Would by commiting to join the Mage Rebellion and i doubt Heads of state would risk the Condemndation of the Chantry.

So ultimately the path you propose doesn't seem valid to me mainly because you have this Mage Templar War ongoing and the Circles have been disolved and along with it any sort of controls for Magic. I do believe Nations likely would align with the Order mainly because as i said before the Mages aren't supported by any state so their only alternative would be to support the Order and thus the Seekers.

Its not a preferable state admittedly but it beats being dragged into a war that most Nations likely are not going to support nor wish to fight. But if having people within their Nation committed to fighting Magic and thus all the dangers that go along with it makes sense it would be done. So in this instance public support does matter, the Templars already have a centuries old reptuation as being an aegis against magic and i think many Nations Orlais included likely would rather support them then let rogue mages terrorize the state.

[Lord Raijin]

leaguer of one wrote...

Lord Raijin wrote...

DarkKnightHolmes wrote...

Templars can't even stop one mage from blowing up the chantry, I doubt they can even beat wet toilet paper.

You can say that again. Not even Cullen and his army of Templars could've stopped Anders from blowing up the Chantry.

[The Hierophant]

leaguer of one wrote...

Lord Raijin wrote...

DarkKnightHolmes wrote...

Templars can't even stop one mage from blowing up the chantry, I doubt they can even beat wet toilet paper.

You can say that again. Not even Cullen and his army of Templars could've stopped Anders from blowing up the Chantry.

[Palidane]

dragonflight288 wrote...
Actually, Riordin says the Anderfels has thousands of Wardens, not merely 1000.

I'm pretty sure he said their were 300 in Orlais, 1000 in the Anderfels, and somewhere between several dozen and several hundred in all the other Andrastian nations.

[Master Warder Z_]

dragonflight288 wrote...

Palidane wrote...

Master Warder Z wrote...

Palidane wrote...

I would like to point out that the Chantry holds the Grey Wardens in great esteem, even claiming they are chosen by the Maker. The Prophet Andraste herself said "The Maker smiles on his Grey Wardens, for their's is the ultimate sacrifice". So yeah, I wouldn't expect too much help from the Orthodox Chantry.

Also, I had to laugh at the thought of taking Weisshaupt. Weisshaupt is the headquarters of the Grey Wardens, and they have 1000 Wardens stationed there and in the rest of the Anderfels. I almost can't imagine the amount of force it would take to bring that place down.

Assuming you even got to Weisshaupt, of course. The Grey Wardens are extremely tight with the Anders, and I don't think the King will take kindly to an army of heretics marching through his domain.

Would you mind providing a source of that canticle please?

I really thought i knew the Stanza of the Maker front to back.

That said Taking the fortress of the great Weisshaupt is far from invincible considering the First Warden is content to Play Politician and make himself rich rather then directing the Order. According to some sources its even go so far as to become a shell of its former Glory, Housing only a small contingent of a few hundred. Also you need to consider Broken Tooth is completely barren, The Wardens likely require immense supply trains to keep the fortress stocked with the provinces needed to maintain it.

If it fell to a siege situation the Templars win merely by disrupting that, It would be a repeat of Wardens Keep once more.

And the King of the Ander's is immensely weak politically the Wardens basically run the Nation but then you need to consider the extreme poverty of the Nation. You likely would see them forming a small military to meet the Templars and that would be their final gesture.

Overall the task is difficult but hardly impossible.

The Canticle is from the World of Thedas Compendium.

The First Warden may be a schemer, but you don't get to be the head of the Grey Wardens through politics. I'd wager he could mess you up in a fight. I'd like you to cite your source on the Warden's numbers, as Riordan himself tells us they're 1000 Wardens in the Anderfels. Keep in mind, "Weisshaupt" is Ander (German) for "white fortress". They call it that because it sits on a mountain of silverite. Darkspawn can't walk within a mile of it with unshod feet. For God's sake, Andorhal himself couldn't crack Weisshaupt.

As for the Anders, they may be poor, but that has nothing to do with their military. The Anderfels lives in a perpetual blight, with marauding Darkspawn constantly roaming the land. Only the largest of cities are free from fear, everywhere else is a valid target. The Anders are a grim, proud, pious, and above all dangerous people. They've remaind unbowed, unbent, and unbroken, sucessfully weathering two direct blights. I imagine a large portion of their population are competent warriors, more than capable of ruining a Templars day. You could send an army marching into the Anderfels, but I doubt you'd be seeing many march back out.

Actually, Riordin says the Anderfels has thousands of Wardens, not merely 1000.

Home to over a thousand, Not where was it mentioned it was thousands.

[TheKomandorShepard]

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...

TheKomandorShepard wrote...

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...

TheKomandorShepard wrote...

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...

Mages are the easiest class to break in DA:O. You're argument against them being powerful is that the lore is incorrect? Never mind that you offer no evidence.

lol you mistaken gameplay and actually events if we take gameplay many our skills for non mages become ridiculous like stunning by scream. Mages ends their ass wiping the floor mostly unless they will take blood magic or abomnation at best we seen mage throwing fireball and take that most mages are nothing more than civilians without any battle training.Dawn of the seeker , redemption and da 2 are examples of this so. only for time to time somewhere shows how mages are powerful just to see one being defeated few second later.

Could you please put this in a comprehensible format?

I mean that mages are not very powerful even comparing to their disadvantages useless beyond their healing which still is heavy limited. Mages are kicked by most peoples in series like da 2 , da redemption ,and dawn of the seeker.Sometimes lore will tell us that mages are powerful just that we meet one who is smashed. For more you need read previous comment im too lazy.

Mages are largely kicked by main characters, who clearly follow different rules than ordinary Thedasians. The mages you see dying by Alistair's, Cassandra's, Hawke's, or The Warden's hands? They are powerful enough to obliterate just about anyone else. Aurelius Titus was melting Qunari. Quentin killed a templar personally. Uldred has an army of abominations, where Greagoir states that his men were ready for one or two.

pirates in da 2 , seekers , leliana , templars , darkspawn , qunari about  quentin he was blood mage with demon army , uldred was abomnation (well pride demon) and start changing others into them so...

[Master Warder Z_]

Palidane wrote...

Master Warder Z wrote...

Palidane wrote...

I would like to point out that the Chantry holds the Grey Wardens in great esteem, even claiming they are chosen by the Maker. The Prophet Andraste herself said "The Maker smiles on his Grey Wardens, for their's is the ultimate sacrifice". So yeah, I wouldn't expect too much help from the Orthodox Chantry.

Also, I had to laugh at the thought of taking Weisshaupt. Weisshaupt is the headquarters of the Grey Wardens, and they have 1000 Wardens stationed there and in the rest of the Anderfels. I almost can't imagine the amount of force it would take to bring that place down.

Assuming you even got to Weisshaupt, of course. The Grey Wardens are extremely tight with the Anders, and I don't think the King will take kindly to an army of heretics marching through his domain.

Would you mind providing a source of that canticle please?

I really thought i knew the Stanza of the Maker front to back.

That said Taking the fortress of the great Weisshaupt is far from invincible considering the First Warden is content to Play Politician and make himself rich rather then directing the Order. According to some sources its even go so far as to become a shell of its former Glory, Housing only a small contingent of a few hundred. Also you need to consider Broken Tooth is completely barren, The Wardens likely require immense supply trains to keep the fortress stocked with the provinces needed to maintain it.

If it fell to a siege situation the Templars win merely by disrupting that, It would be a repeat of Wardens Keep once more.

And the King of the Ander's is immensely weak politically the Wardens basically run the Nation but then you need to consider the extreme poverty of the Nation. You likely would see them forming a small military to meet the Templars and that would be their final gesture.

Overall the task is difficult but hardly impossible.

The Canticle is from the World of Thedas Compendium.

The First Warden may be a schemer, but you don't get to be the head of the Grey Wardens through politics. I'd wager he could mess you up in a fight. I'd like you to cite your source on the Warden's numbers, as Riordan himself tells us they're 1000 Wardens in the Anderfels. Keep in mind, "Weisshaupt" is Ander (German) for "white fortress". They call it that because it sits on a mountain of silverite. Darkspawn can't walk within a mile of it with unshod feet. For God's sake, Andorhal himself couldn't crack Weisshaupt.

As for the Anders, they may be poor, but that has nothing to do with their military. The Anderfels lives in a perpetual blight, with marauding Darkspawn constantly roaming the land. Only the largest of cities are free from fear, everywhere else is a valid target. The Anders are a grim, proud, pious, and above all dangerous people. They've remaind unbowed, unbent, and unbroken, sucessfully weathering two direct blights. I imagine a large portion of their population are competent warriors, more than capable of ruining a Templars day. You could send an army marching into the Anderfels, but I doubt you'd be seeing many march back out.

Hrm i don't know anything of the First Warden so i will not comment on the man besides what i have said already.

Ah i do not possess the World of Thedas would you mind providing a link to the passage you speak of so i can verify it if you wouldn't mind.

And the Templars are not Darkspawn, All they need to do is lay siege to the Fortress and let the occupants starve or die meeting them in battle.

And besides as the Darkspawn proved at the vigil even the best made fortresses fall.

And the Source for my cited number is the DA wiki which according to the source it cited was the very book you speak of world of thedas.

And you have a point but compitent warriors or not you do not become an army merely because you have numbers. Do the Anders have the wealth to outfit themselves as a force? to maintain a force? You need to consider logicstics and thus the expense and manpower it requires.

I do not dismiss the anders because they are poor, i dismiss them as a factor because as far as i am aware they cannot afford to meet an Army meeting them not conqueor to engage the Wardens, as you said this place is filled with roving bands of Darkspawn and left overs from two blights.

You see the Templars there would not be there to conqueor they would be there to demand the removal of Warden Mage as this situation was provided to me.

The remoteness of the keep works against the Anders and favors the Templars, they likely would not encounter any Anders orginized resistance merely due to distance and expense.

I give them fair chances in a siege.

[leaguer of one]

Master Warder Z wrote...

leaguer of one wrote...

Master Warder Z wrote...



This seems to have devolved into " He said she said" Relatively quickly.

*Sigh* If you want my opinion? Debate is fine but if alternative speculation and notions offend you, you may wish to avoid it.

The Templars and Chantry situation is hinted upon but you were outright denying that they no longer had Chantry resources; That is hard to believe considering that i do believe the Chantry split along with the Order and Seekers. After all as i said the Divine is hardly popular even in Orlais, Pro Mage sentiment at the Highest level of Office isn't exactly liked among the Templars.

I am saying that the Templars public opinion is far better then that of the Wardens; The Nobility in most cases looks upon them favorably and respectfully and that is much less then the Wardens outside the Anderfels where they are primarily tolerated mainly due to them having major political power there.

And who are you to speak for the Nations of Thedas? In this war that has broken out you don't believe the sitting Governments will see the mages as a threat? You don't think they will back the defenders of the common people against Magic? I can see massive support for the Templars and relatively little going to the Wardens as they are politically neutral in all matters of state.

Therefore its an easy assumption to state that the Nations of Thedas would place more import upon the Templars then a bunch of political neutral warriors during the course of this incident. So if the situation i stated came to pass it easy to see how the local nobility would outright support the move merely to keep the Templar presence in the area.

So you have the Templars having the Wealth of Nations and Nobility supporting them, Supplying them and the intent to keep them around to protect them from the Mages, as far as i am aware no Nation thus far as has declared to side with the Mages in DA:I That would indicate at least to me that on the Political spectrum the Templars appear to be the more preferable choice.

And if they are the more preferable choice then you see the overtures going to maintain them, You see the resources and numbers needed to protect them from the dangers of Magic going to them. Their numbers likely would swell even larger, Cullen was complaining that the Templars had difficulty recuirting prior to the Kirkwall Rebellion i doubt that is the case any longer.

So Yes you have the Wardens, Small Politically Neutral groups spread across Thedas who exist at the grace of their various states and then you have the Templars. The Large popular and former chantry supported movement although i would still maintain that regionally the opinions on Templars would differ with the Cleric in charge, If they supported the ideals of Lambert no doubt they would condemn the Divine while phraising the Templars.

It depends upon a number of factors but even so i see the Templars as a far superior force then the Wardens, Even in their current condition.

In fact i would go so far as to state the Templars are entering a stage of power they have no seen since the last Exalted March.

It's not a hint. It a flat out fact. The chantry is shattered. The templars are scattered. And  the mages are rogue.

It a flat out fact with many sorces supporting it.
And public opinion does not matter. It's political opinion that matters. Not leader or lord is ever going to side with the templars knowing the qun is coming and the only thing that stopped them the last time were the mages. Any person with any militaty understanding is going to see the  a group with indivisualls that can take an army each and heal an army each is better then an army with a short battery life. 

You want an army of men who need expensive lyrium every month?

Templars never had the wealth of natons supporting them. The had the wealth of the chantry. The chantry funds them, not the nations. The nation never did and how expensive a templar is to fund, a nation never will.
And for the last time, templars don't have political power. They normaly don't take part in politics. Kirkwall was different. If you read it's history you would know.

Nations are not going to side with the templars on this. Mages are just way too valuble to, espesially with the Qun coming.

So you think Local and Regional branches of the Chantry, just flat out broke all contact even if the Divine whom led to this schism ordered it to do so? I don't think the Hardliners would favor the divine personally, I view it much as Pertice said.

Schism is inventiable and i think it has occured; The Templars in my eye likely would have chantry support still just not the chantry the Divine has control of. I am unaware of the extent of this support but again you have possibility of it. The Seeker order and thus the Templars did not abandon the Chantry nor the Maker.

They abandoned the divine, They abandoned the accord allowing the divine to direct them.

And moving on to the other subject.

The Qun is a threat but not anywhere near an Imediate threat after all you have their invasion of Kirkwall and that did not shatter the Peace even when the Arishok was killed and the invasion repulsed. The Free Marches did not declare war upon the Qunari; So Yes you have that political situation ongoing.

Until the Qunari invade again you aren't going to see the support for that stance until it comes to pass, and this is assuming that the Techological gap isn't improved the Qunari were driven by dozens of armies and mages its true but placing the entire success upon the mages when you have Several Exalted Marches? Centuries of Warfare and strife is pure fallacy.

They were a Primary factor certainly but far from the only resource being commited, And That said you are acting as if the circles still exist. the only method to obtain "Healing and etc" Would by commiting to join the Mage Rebellion and i doubt Heads of state would risk the Condemndation of the Chantry.

So ultimately the path you propose doesn't seem valid to me mainly because you have this Mage Templar War ongoing and the Circles have been disolved and along with it any sort of controls for Magic. I do believe Nations likely would align with the Order mainly because as i said before the Mages aren't supported by any state so their only alternative would be to support the Order and thus the Seekers.

Its not a preferable state admittedly but it beats being dragged into a war that most Nations likely are not going to support nor wish to fight. But if having people within their Nation committed to fighting Magic and thus all the dangers that go along with it makes sense it would be done. So in this instance public support does matter, the Templars already have a centuries old reptuation as being an aegis against magic and i think many Nations Orlais included likely would rather support them then let rogue mages terrorize the state.

Do Local and Regional branches of the Chantry have the money to pay for Lyrium? I think not. Lyruim is extemtly expensive. Added, you still have the nations laws and motivations to count on. There will be a split but not in the favor you'll think it would go. Remeber as much as Thedas fears mages, they fear the qunari more.  And it not that the marches declared war on the qunari, it that the qunari are known to be getting ready to come back to attack.

And LAMBART did order the templars to abondon the chantry. It was made very clear in the letter he sent to the divine.
It matter not what the local  chantry supports. It's who the ruling class supports. In there country they have the majority of the fighting men. The templars are far smaller in number. A nation at this put can cut off all suport to ether part of the chantry without any fear with the teplars divided as they are.
 The head of  a country can't be condemed by the chantry because the chantry does not have the military might to do so.
Divided the chantry is too weak to be an issue. If it was not at war with it self, a nation that defied the chantries beliefs would face a march. Now that no side is listening to the other, who is going to fallow an order of a march? They are too divided to gather any force that get.
And the ruling class know how effective mages are. A shift of power like this allows many out side of the chantry to get power.

The normal people can believe anything they want, it's the ruling class that has the power now because they have the majority of finaces and man power. And the templars need that to even think of lasting and mages have the better draw then templars do to the ruling class.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

TheKomandorShepard wrote...

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...

TheKomandorShepard wrote...

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...

Could you please put this in a comprehensible format?

I mean that mages are not very powerful even comparing to their disadvantages useless beyond their healing which still is heavy limited. Mages are kicked by most peoples in series like da 2 , da redemption ,and dawn of the seeker.Sometimes lore will tell us that mages are powerful just that we meet one who is smashed. For more you need read previous comment im too lazy.

Mages are largely kicked by main characters, who clearly follow different rules than ordinary Thedasians. The mages you see dying by Alistair's, Cassandra's, Hawke's, or The Warden's hands? They are powerful enough to obliterate just about anyone else. Aurelius Titus was melting Qunari. Quentin killed a templar personally. Uldred has an army of abominations, where Greagoir states that his men were ready for one or two.

pirates in da 2 , seekers , leliana , templars , darkspawn , qunari about  quentin he was blood mage with demon army , uldred was abomnation (well pride demon) and start changing others into them so...

Seekers and Templars are trained to take on mages, and even they can't always do so reliably. Leiliana's essentially a main character. Nor is it entirely fair to say mages are weak since they can't handle darkspawn, since the Templars are still less optimal for that. As for Quentin, what magic he used isn't central to my point, he still took out a Templar. And your counterargument for why Greagoir couldn't handle Uldred has little bearing on my point, and in fact involves no new information. Uldred managed to stalemate the templars (or the other way around, to hear Greagoir) with that army. Since the Warden follows different rules, the army with which he did so means little.

That leaves your argument "pirates in DA2," which I'd refute if I had the slightest idea what you were talking about. Could you state it in such a way as requires no more than second hand knowledge of DA2 to understand? That's kind of all I have.

[TheKomandorShepard]

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...

TheKomandorShepard wrote...

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...

TheKomandorShepard wrote...

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...

Could you please put this in a comprehensible format?

I mean that mages are not very powerful even comparing to their disadvantages useless beyond their healing which still is heavy limited. Mages are kicked by most peoples in series like da 2 , da redemption ,and dawn of the seeker.Sometimes lore will tell us that mages are powerful just that we meet one who is smashed. For more you need read previous comment im too lazy.

Mages are largely kicked by main characters, who clearly follow different rules than ordinary Thedasians. The mages you see dying by Alistair's, Cassandra's, Hawke's, or The Warden's hands? They are powerful enough to obliterate just about anyone else. Aurelius Titus was melting Qunari. Quentin killed a templar personally. Uldred has an army of abominations, where Greagoir states that his men were ready for one or two.

pirates in da 2 , seekers , leliana , templars , darkspawn , qunari about  quentin he was blood mage with demon army , uldred was abomnation (well pride demon) and start changing others into them so...

Seekers and Templars are trained to take on mages, and even they can't always do so reliably. Leiliana's essentially a main character. Nor is it entirely fair to say mages are weak since they can't handle darkspawn, since the Templars are still less optimal for that. As for Quentin, what magic he used isn't central to my point, he still took out a Templar. And your counterargument for why Greagoir couldn't handle Uldred has little bearing on my point, and in fact involves no new information. Uldred managed to stalemate the templars (or the other way around, to hear Greagoir) with that army. Since the Warden follows different rules, the army with which he did so means little.

That leaves your argument "pirates in DA2," which I'd refute if I had the slightest idea what you were talking about. Could you state it in such a way as requires no more than second hand knowledge of DA2 to understand? That's kind of all I have.

I gave you two examples with seekers and templars they still put them down as well leliana she still have problem with chevalier at least from that she says us in first game or templars in asunder.Yeah as i said blood mages are much more powerful than normal mages and can be dangerous as well abomnations. Again uldred doesn't take templars he was speaking with irving and then start summon demons and turn into abomnation what is massive power up and in terms of power pride demon is badass even mages with cassandar couldn't take it only high dragon managed hurt him but still was killed by pride demon.

first act warehouse pirates try capture mage she have to turn into abomnation

Modifié par TheKomandorShepard, 15 septembre 2013 - 12:18 .

[pmac_tk421]

Seeing as from the looks of it they've formed roaming death squads and are attacking innocents I wouldn't put it past them. Besides they try to kill Anders in awakening if you recruit him.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

TheKomandorShepard wrote...

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...

TheKomandorShepard wrote...

pirates in da 2 , seekers , leliana , templars , darkspawn , qunari about  quentin he was blood mage with demon army , uldred was abomnation (well pride demon) and start changing others into them so...

Seekers and Templars are trained to take on mages, and even they can't always do so reliably. Leiliana's essentially a main character. Nor is it entirely fair to say mages are weak since they can't handle darkspawn, since the Templars are still less optimal for that. As for Quentin, what magic he used isn't central to my point, he still took out a Templar. And your counterargument for why Greagoir couldn't handle Uldred has little bearing on my point, and in fact involves no new information. Uldred managed to stalemate the templars (or the other way around, to hear Greagoir) with that army. Since the Warden follows different rules, the army with which he did so means little.

That leaves your argument "pirates in DA2," which I'd refute if I had the slightest idea what you were talking about. Could you state it in such a way as requires no more than second hand knowledge of DA2 to understand? That's kind of all I have.

I gave you two examples with seekers and templars they still put them down as well leliana she still have problem with chevalier at least from that she says us in first game or templars in asunder.Yeah as i said blood mages are much more powerful than normal mages and can be dangerous as well abomnations. Again uldred doesn't take templars he was speaking with irving and then start summon demons and turn into abomnation what is massive power up and in terms of power pride demon is badass even mages with cassandar couldn't take it only high dragon managed hurt him but still was killed by pride demon.

first act warehouse pirates try capture mage she have to turn into abomnation

As an English major, I find your grammar offensive.

Seekers and templars can't really be depended on to put mages down. Especially not blood mages, and since  as I understand it the original discussion is whether or not Wardens can take Templars you can't assume that's not what they're facing. Since Uldred is absolutely not typical, my main point is that he's evidence that the Warden (who demolishes mages with ease, whether or not he/she is one) follows different rules than the rest of Thedas. (And Cassandra, since apparently she faced one too.) But you can't say the Templar contingent was a match for him. They were losing.

As for Olivia, she was incompetent. I suppose this really is evidence that mages aren't that tough (though it's far less evidence than I can give you that they're flat-out terrifying), but as I understand it the original argument was whether the Wardens could take the Templars. If you're not far more competent than Olivia, you don't qualify. Even without this, there's no evidence that Olivia was taught how to fight.

Modifié par Riverdaleswhiteflash, 15 septembre 2013 - 12:33 .

[KotorEffect3]

Warden mages are battle hardened and experienced, not to mention the other wardens they will have as backup. Also the wardens don't frown upon blood magic if it gets the job done and the wardens are not above being completely ruthless. It's a fight that Templars can't afford to pick.

[Master Warder Z_]

leaguer of one wrote...

Master Warder Z wrote...

leaguer of one wrote...

Master Warder Z wrote...



This seems to have devolved into " He said she said" Relatively quickly.

*Sigh* If you want my opinion? Debate is fine but if alternative speculation and notions offend you, you may wish to avoid it.

The Templars and Chantry situation is hinted upon but you were outright denying that they no longer had Chantry resources; That is hard to believe considering that i do believe the Chantry split along with the Order and Seekers. After all as i said the Divine is hardly popular even in Orlais, Pro Mage sentiment at the Highest level of Office isn't exactly liked among the Templars.

I am saying that the Templars public opinion is far better then that of the Wardens; The Nobility in most cases looks upon them favorably and respectfully and that is much less then the Wardens outside the Anderfels where they are primarily tolerated mainly due to them having major political power there.

And who are you to speak for the Nations of Thedas? In this war that has broken out you don't believe the sitting Governments will see the mages as a threat? You don't think they will back the defenders of the common people against Magic? I can see massive support for the Templars and relatively little going to the Wardens as they are politically neutral in all matters of state.

Therefore its an easy assumption to state that the Nations of Thedas would place more import upon the Templars then a bunch of political neutral warriors during the course of this incident. So if the situation i stated came to pass it easy to see how the local nobility would outright support the move merely to keep the Templar presence in the area.

So you have the Templars having the Wealth of Nations and Nobility supporting them, Supplying them and the intent to keep them around to protect them from the Mages, as far as i am aware no Nation thus far as has declared to side with the Mages in DA:I That would indicate at least to me that on the Political spectrum the Templars appear to be the more preferable choice.

And if they are the more preferable choice then you see the overtures going to maintain them, You see the resources and numbers needed to protect them from the dangers of Magic going to them. Their numbers likely would swell even larger, Cullen was complaining that the Templars had difficulty recuirting prior to the Kirkwall Rebellion i doubt that is the case any longer.

So Yes you have the Wardens, Small Politically Neutral groups spread across Thedas who exist at the grace of their various states and then you have the Templars. The Large popular and former chantry supported movement although i would still maintain that regionally the opinions on Templars would differ with the Cleric in charge, If they supported the ideals of Lambert no doubt they would condemn the Divine while phraising the Templars.

It depends upon a number of factors but even so i see the Templars as a far superior force then the Wardens, Even in their current condition.

In fact i would go so far as to state the Templars are entering a stage of power they have no seen since the last Exalted March.

It's not a hint. It a flat out fact. The chantry is shattered. The templars are scattered. And  the mages are rogue.

It a flat out fact with many sorces supporting it.
And public opinion does not matter. It's political opinion that matters. Not leader or lord is ever going to side with the templars knowing the qun is coming and the only thing that stopped them the last time were the mages. Any person with any militaty understanding is going to see the  a group with indivisualls that can take an army each and heal an army each is better then an army with a short battery life. 

You want an army of men who need expensive lyrium every month?

Templars never had the wealth of natons supporting them. The had the wealth of the chantry. The chantry funds them, not the nations. The nation never did and how expensive a templar is to fund, a nation never will.
And for the last time, templars don't have political power. They normaly don't take part in politics. Kirkwall was different. If you read it's history you would know.

Nations are not going to side with the templars on this. Mages are just way too valuble to, espesially with the Qun coming.

So you think Local and Regional branches of the Chantry, just flat out broke all contact even if the Divine whom led to this schism ordered it to do so? I don't think the Hardliners would favor the divine personally, I view it much as Pertice said.

Schism is inventiable and i think it has occured; The Templars in my eye likely would have chantry support still just not the chantry the Divine has control of. I am unaware of the extent of this support but again you have possibility of it. The Seeker order and thus the Templars did not abandon the Chantry nor the Maker.

They abandoned the divine, They abandoned the accord allowing the divine to direct them.

And moving on to the other subject.

The Qun is a threat but not anywhere near an Imediate threat after all you have their invasion of Kirkwall and that did not shatter the Peace even when the Arishok was killed and the invasion repulsed. The Free Marches did not declare war upon the Qunari; So Yes you have that political situation ongoing.

Until the Qunari invade again you aren't going to see the support for that stance until it comes to pass, and this is assuming that the Techological gap isn't improved the Qunari were driven by dozens of armies and mages its true but placing the entire success upon the mages when you have Several Exalted Marches? Centuries of Warfare and strife is pure fallacy.

They were a Primary factor certainly but far from the only resource being commited, And That said you are acting as if the circles still exist. the only method to obtain "Healing and etc" Would by commiting to join the Mage Rebellion and i doubt Heads of state would risk the Condemndation of the Chantry.

So ultimately the path you propose doesn't seem valid to me mainly because you have this Mage Templar War ongoing and the Circles have been disolved and along with it any sort of controls for Magic. I do believe Nations likely would align with the Order mainly because as i said before the Mages aren't supported by any state so their only alternative would be to support the Order and thus the Seekers.

Its not a preferable state admittedly but it beats being dragged into a war that most Nations likely are not going to support nor wish to fight. But if having people within their Nation committed to fighting Magic and thus all the dangers that go along with it makes sense it would be done. So in this instance public support does matter, the Templars already have a centuries old reptuation as being an aegis against magic and i think many Nations Orlais included likely would rather support them then let rogue mages terrorize the state.

Do Local and Regional branches of the Chantry have the money to pay for Lyrium? I think not. Lyruim is extemtly expensive. Added, you still have the nations laws and motivations to count on. There will be a split but not in the favor you'll think it would go. Remeber as much as Thedas fears mages, they fear the qunari more.  And it not that the marches declared war on the qunari, it that the qunari are known to be getting ready to come back to attack.

And LAMBART did order the templars to abondon the chantry. It was made very clear in the letter he sent to the divine.
It matter not what the local  chantry supports. It's who the ruling class supports. In there country they have the majority of the fighting men. The templars are far smaller in number. A nation at this put can cut off all suport to ether part of the chantry without any fear with the teplars divided as they are.
 The head of  a country can't be condemed by the chantry because the chantry does not have the military might to do so.
Divided the chantry is too weak to be an issue. If it was not at war with it self, a nation that defied the chantries beliefs would face a march. Now that no side is listening to the other, who is going to fallow an order of a march? They are too divided to gather any force that get.
And the ruling class know how effective mages are. A shift of power like this allows many out side of the chantry to get power.

The normal people can believe anything they want, it's the ruling class that has the power now because they have the majority of finaces and man power. And the templars need that to even think of lasting and mages have the better draw then templars do to the ruling class.

You think so? You have a number of Large chantries that collect considerable annual tithes that sounds like more then enough to afford monthly lyrium. For example lets state Starkhaven supported the Templars at a local level via the Chantry, considering they collect annual dues from every estate, including the nobilities yearly you see a fortune going directly to the Templars.

Now spread this accross presumbly every chantry aligned with Lambert and then you have considerable resources going to them, Even if it isn't National support its considerable and this is presuming that the Nobility do not align with them rather then face the Mage threat alone.

Did you seriously just state that the Templars wouldn't attract the Nobility? The Nobility joins the Order, The Nobility contributes to and supports the Order that was true in Kirkwall and Fereldan. How many other places is it true? How many other Nations have the Templars gaining Finanicial, material and numerical aid? You have several citable cases of this in both games.

And moving on to dismiss your in my eye incorrect assumption that the Templars disregard the chantry as a whole.

Dragonage.wikia.com/wiki/Nearran_Accord

Note it clearly is addressed to not acknowledging Chantry Authority but the truth of it is clearly evident with his earlier statement of the divine being incapable. The Chantry as a whole was not mentioned, The Seekers and the Templars aligned under Lambert do not believe the divine as capable. That does not mean that they are willing to write off the entirity of the chantry.

The Accord was disolved but only because of the Divine; So if say a Grand Cleric supported the Templars you do believe that the Templars would just overlook that support? They would state we disavowed a thousand years of tradiation because the system we support failed us with a bad ruler? I doubt it, I think they would take any one who supported them over the Divine.

So you have the Chantry (Presumably regionally), the Nobility and the support of the Common man all sliding with the Templar order. I think their resources are greater then you would believe.