226 réponses à ce sujet

[Merengues 1945]

Well, there's a problem, Grey Wardens are tough, certainly tougher than templars at any rate, They have a lot of power and men in the Anderfels and the respect of many societies (Dwarven kingdoms included)... Messing with them is tempting fate. Wardens oath is to fight the blight not humans, but a retaliation would seriously cripple the templars who without chantry support, lack access to some resources that the wardens can easily get.

Warden influence within the dwarves can be something to take on acount... As the only surfacers to fight the darkspawn, and with thousands of them fighting with them on the deep roads for ages, the dwarves have respect for them, even fondness. Wardens could convince them of not selling the lyrium to the templars or buying all the lyrium and see those bastards die from withdrawal.

Also remeber that not anyone is recruited to the wardens, they select only the best, and even the best sometimes die at the joining. Fighting mages is nothing compared to fighting hordes of darkspawn, and warden mages would not be alone, wardens have a very deep bond between them, mages would be surrounded by three or four tough battle-hardened wardens ready to protect their brothers and sisters, and those attacks can't be disrupted.

Modifié par Merengues 1945, 15 septembre 2013 - 12:45 .

[Master Warder Z_]

Merengues 1945 wrote...

Well, there's a problem, Grey Wardens are tough, certainly tougher than templars at any rate, They have a lot of power and men in the Anderfels and the respect of many societies (Dwarven kingdoms included)... Messing with them is tempting fate. Wardens oath is to fight the blight not humans, but a retaliation would seriously cripple the templars who without chantry support, lack access to some resources that the wardens can easily get.

Warden influence within the dwarves can be something to take on acount... As the only surfacers to fight the darkspawn, and with thousands of them fighting with them on the deep roads for ages, the dwarves have respect for them, even fondness. Wardens could convince them of not selling the lyrium to the templars or buying all the lyrium and see those bastards die from withdrawal.

You are joking right?

Orzamar ceasing its primary export to the surface?

The Dwarves respect the Wardens from Nobility to castless but here is the thing.

That's 70% percent of their trade income if not more.

That stops flowing? The Last Bastion of the Dwarves die, I doubt the Wardens enjoy THAT much favor.

[Zack_Nero]

If a templar feel's that it is necessary, then yes they will. They already tried with Anders back in Awakening.

[TheKomandorShepard]

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...

TheKomandorShepard wrote...

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...

TheKomandorShepard wrote...

pirates in da 2 , seekers , leliana , templars , darkspawn , qunari about  quentin he was blood mage with demon army , uldred was abomnation (well pride demon) and start changing others into them so...

Seekers and Templars are trained to take on mages, and even they can't always do so reliably. Leiliana's essentially a main character. Nor is it entirely fair to say mages are weak since they can't handle darkspawn, since the Templars are still less optimal for that. As for Quentin, what magic he used isn't central to my point, he still took out a Templar. And your counterargument for why Greagoir couldn't handle Uldred has little bearing on my point, and in fact involves no new information. Uldred managed to stalemate the templars (or the other way around, to hear Greagoir) with that army. Since the Warden follows different rules, the army with which he did so means little.

That leaves your argument "pirates in DA2," which I'd refute if I had the slightest idea what you were talking about. Could you state it in such a way as requires no more than second hand knowledge of DA2 to understand? That's kind of all I have.

I gave you two examples with seekers and templars they still put them down as well leliana she still have problem with chevalier at least from that she says us in first game or templars in asunder.Yeah as i said blood mages are much more powerful than normal mages and can be dangerous as well abomnations. Again uldred doesn't take templars he was speaking with irving and then start summon demons and turn into abomnation what is massive power up and in terms of power pride demon is badass even mages with cassandar couldn't take it only high dragon managed hurt him but still was killed by pride demon.

first act warehouse pirates try capture mage she have to turn into abomnation

As an English major, I find your grammar offensive.

Seekers and templars can't really be depended on to put mages down. Especially not blood mages, and since  as I understand it the original discussion is whether or not Wardens can take Templars you can't assume that's not what they're facing. Since Uldred is absolutely not typical, my main point is that he's evidence that the Warden follows different rules than the rest of Thedas. (And Cassandra, since apparently she faced one too.) But you can't say the Templar contingent was a match for him. They were losing.

As for Olivia, she was incompetent. I suppose this really is evidence that mages aren't that tough (though it's far less evidence than I can give you that they're flat-out terrifying), but as I understand it the original argument was whether the Wardens could take the Templars. If you're not far more competent than Olivia, you don't qualify. Even without this, there's no evidence that Olivia was taught how to fight.

But templars and especially seekers can kill mage easily harder if we speak about blood mage and much harder if about abomnation.And well yes templars can handle wardens but it depends on the circumstances if their mages start turn into ambomnations well i doubt it they could handle this besides their mages are minority because they can recruit only one at time.Yes they were losing because uldred was pride demon and as i said pride demons are extremely powerful.But i m not sure about who you are talking about the warden vs templars (?) or pride demon (uldred) vs templars.

another example is sketch

Well mages aren't harmless teddy bears and can do some harm but party starts only if mage become abomnation then they are rly dangerous.And again i will use Senior Enchanter who can't handle few spiders in magi origin.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

Master Warder Z wrote...

Merengues 1945 wrote...

Well, there's a problem, Grey Wardens are tough, certainly tougher than templars at any rate, They have a lot of power and men in the Anderfels and the respect of many societies (Dwarven kingdoms included)... Messing with them is tempting fate. Wardens oath is to fight the blight not humans, but a retaliation would seriously cripple the templars who without chantry support, lack access to some resources that the wardens can easily get.

Warden influence within the dwarves can be something to take on acount... As the only surfacers to fight the darkspawn, and with thousands of them fighting with them on the deep roads for ages, the dwarves have respect for them, even fondness. Wardens could convince them of not selling the lyrium to the templars or buying all the lyrium and see those bastards die from withdrawal.

You are joking right?

Orzamar ceasing its primary export to the surface?

The Dwarves respect the Wardens from Nobility to castless but here is the thing.

That's 70% percent of their trade income if not more.

That stops flowing? The Last Bastion of the Dwarves die, I doubt the Wardens enjoy THAT much favor.

So they seek other markets. The Chantry is the only group that can legitimately get lyrium. That's not the same as nobody else being interested. Just off the top of my head, the rebel circles and the Wardens can also find uses for it.

[Merengues 1945]

Master Warder Z wrote...

Merengues 1945 wrote...

Well, there's a problem, Grey Wardens are tough, certainly tougher than templars at any rate, They have a lot of power and men in the Anderfels and the respect of many societies (Dwarven kingdoms included)... Messing with them is tempting fate. Wardens oath is to fight the blight not humans, but a retaliation would seriously cripple the templars who without chantry support, lack access to some resources that the wardens can easily get.

Warden influence within the dwarves can be something to take on acount... As the only surfacers to fight the darkspawn, and with thousands of them fighting with them on the deep roads for ages, the dwarves have respect for them, even fondness. Wardens could convince them of not selling the lyrium to the templars or buying all the lyrium and see those bastards die from withdrawal.

You are joking right?

Orzamar ceasing its primary export to the surface?

The Dwarves respect the Wardens from Nobility to castless but here is the thing.

That's 70% percent of their trade income if not more.

That stops flowing? The Last Bastion of the Dwarves die, I doubt the Wardens enjoy THAT much favor.

There's more clients than just templars... As I said they could buy it and with the chantry in disarray surely the Magisters will be more than willing to buy a lot of lyrium. Without the chantry, I don't think templars have the funds to keep buying that sh*t for long, while wardens and magisters can surely do.

[Master Warder Z_]

Merengues 1945 wrote...

Master Warder Z wrote...

Merengues 1945 wrote...

Well, there's a problem, Grey Wardens are tough, certainly tougher than templars at any rate, They have a lot of power and men in the Anderfels and the respect of many societies (Dwarven kingdoms included)... Messing with them is tempting fate. Wardens oath is to fight the blight not humans, but a retaliation would seriously cripple the templars who without chantry support, lack access to some resources that the wardens can easily get.

Warden influence within the dwarves can be something to take on acount... As the only surfacers to fight the darkspawn, and with thousands of them fighting with them on the deep roads for ages, the dwarves have respect for them, even fondness. Wardens could convince them of not selling the lyrium to the templars or buying all the lyrium and see those bastards die from withdrawal.

You are joking right?

Orzamar ceasing its primary export to the surface?

The Dwarves respect the Wardens from Nobility to castless but here is the thing.

That's 70% percent of their trade income if not more.

That stops flowing? The Last Bastion of the Dwarves die, I doubt the Wardens enjoy THAT much favor.

There's more clients than just templars... As I said they could buy it and with the chantry in disarray surely the Magisters will be more than willing to buy a lot of lyrium. Without the chantry, I don't think templars have the funds to keep buying that sh*t for long, while wardens and magisters can surely do.

Nothing comparable to what they are losing.

The chantry controls the Trade topside and they are by far the largest buyer.

The thing of it is; You are assuming, apparently not alone in this belief that the entire chantry ceased support of the Templars when in truth thats doubtful to me. They likely still have backers and supporters and thus still have the wealth to buy it.

So i doubt this approach works.

Its clever i give you that if just not practical in my eye.

[Master Warder Z_]

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...

Master Warder Z wrote...

Merengues 1945 wrote...

Well, there's a problem, Grey Wardens are tough, certainly tougher than templars at any rate, They have a lot of power and men in the Anderfels and the respect of many societies (Dwarven kingdoms included)... Messing with them is tempting fate. Wardens oath is to fight the blight not humans, but a retaliation would seriously cripple the templars who without chantry support, lack access to some resources that the wardens can easily get.

Warden influence within the dwarves can be something to take on acount... As the only surfacers to fight the darkspawn, and with thousands of them fighting with them on the deep roads for ages, the dwarves have respect for them, even fondness. Wardens could convince them of not selling the lyrium to the templars or buying all the lyrium and see those bastards die from withdrawal.

You are joking right?

Orzamar ceasing its primary export to the surface?

The Dwarves respect the Wardens from Nobility to castless but here is the thing.

That's 70% percent of their trade income if not more.

That stops flowing? The Last Bastion of the Dwarves die, I doubt the Wardens enjoy THAT much favor.

So they seek other markets. The Chantry is the only group that can legitimately get lyrium. That's not the same as nobody else being interested. Just off the top of my head, the rebel circles and the Wardens can also find uses for it.

They won't be able to replace the Chantries volume and i am assuming neither group can match the Chantry in purchases either.

So i have a feeling that the Dwarves will keep the dust going to the Templars.

So they can keep fighting the Magickers.

[leaguer of one]

Master Warder Z wrote...



You think so? You have a number of Large chantries that collect considerable annual tithes that sounds like more then enough to afford monthly lyrium. For example lets state Starkhaven supported the Templars at a local level via the Chantry, considering they collect annual dues from every estate, including the nobilities yearly you see a fortune going directly to the Templars.

Now spread this accross presumbly every chantry aligned with Lambert and then you have considerable resources going to them, Even if it isn't National support its considerable and this is presuming that the Nobility do not align with them rather then face the Mage threat alone.

Did you seriously just state that the Templars wouldn't attract the Nobility? The Nobility joins the Order, The Nobility contributes to and supports the Order that was true in Kirkwall and Fereldan. How many other places is it true? How many other Nations have the Templars gaining Finanicial, material and numerical aid? You have several citable cases of this in both games.

And moving on to dismiss your in my eye incorrect assumption that the Templars disregard the chantry as a whole.

Dragonage.wikia.com/wiki/Nearran_Accord

Note it clearly is addressed to not acknowledging Chantry Authority but the truth of it is clearly evident with his earlier statement of the divine being incapable. The Chantry as a whole was not mentioned, The Seekers and the Templars aligned under Lambert do not believe the divine as capable. That does not mean that they are willing to write off the entirity of the chantry.

The Accord was disolved but only because of the Divine; So if say a Grand Cleric supported the Templars you do believe that the Templars would just overlook that support? They would state we disavowed a thousand years of tradiation because the system we support failed us with a bad ruler? I doubt it, I think they would take any one who supported them over the Divine.

So you have the Chantry (Presumably regionally), the Nobility and the support of the Common man all sliding with the Templar order. I think their resources are greater then you would believe.

And who are they going to support? Most of them are not going to support the same group. Added, the ammount need to get lyrium ony a few major chantries can get. Yes a grand cleric can choose to support  the templar...But the question is which group of templars. That's my point.  They are that divided. An in the case of finaces, the people pay there taxes first, then the church. What happens is the state rule to no one to support the chantry?

And no the templars will not attack noblity. They don't have the support, finaces, or man power to. It would be starting a war. Remember the order is divided. To attack the noblity would risk having them be attacked on too many sides.
You need to understand that the templars are divided under different factions. Even if the factions get support the question to which one would get the most support from the chantry and how many chantries would defy the chantry. That mean we have muliple arms of the chantry fighting one another. No one has the majority of powers. If no one has the majority of power no one has any might close to facing a nation.
Everything lays in the hand of the ruling class not the chantry. Every side of the chantry lacks power, even with chantries supporting them.
Divided they have kno where near the resorces, might and power they have together. How can the pressure the ruling class like that?
Until any side of the chantry gain power, the ruling class can do what they want reguards to chantry law. They can even make it so that the chantry never gets the power they had before.

[leaguer of one]

Master Warder Z wrote...

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...

Master Warder Z wrote...

Merengues 1945 wrote...

Well, there's a problem, Grey Wardens are tough, certainly tougher than templars at any rate, They have a lot of power and men in the Anderfels and the respect of many societies (Dwarven kingdoms included)... Messing with them is tempting fate. Wardens oath is to fight the blight not humans, but a retaliation would seriously cripple the templars who without chantry support, lack access to some resources that the wardens can easily get.

Warden influence within the dwarves can be something to take on acount... As the only surfacers to fight the darkspawn, and with thousands of them fighting with them on the deep roads for ages, the dwarves have respect for them, even fondness. Wardens could convince them of not selling the lyrium to the templars or buying all the lyrium and see those bastards die from withdrawal.

You are joking right?

Orzamar ceasing its primary export to the surface?

The Dwarves respect the Wardens from Nobility to castless but here is the thing.

That's 70% percent of their trade income if not more.

That stops flowing? The Last Bastion of the Dwarves die, I doubt the Wardens enjoy THAT much favor.

So they seek other markets. The Chantry is the only group that can legitimately get lyrium. That's not the same as nobody else being interested. Just off the top of my head, the rebel circles and the Wardens can also find uses for it.

They won't be able to replace the Chantries volume and i am assuming neither group can match the Chantry in purchases either.

So i have a feeling that the Dwarves will keep the dust going to the Templars.

So they can keep fighting the Magickers.

No they won't. What they would do is charge out the nose to get as much money as they can. Because so many peopel want it and need it in the war, the price of lyrium is just going to go up. Dwarves don't care about mages or templars.

[Master Warder Z_]

leaguer of one wrote...

Master Warder Z wrote...



You think so? You have a number of Large chantries that collect considerable annual tithes that sounds like more then enough to afford monthly lyrium. For example lets state Starkhaven supported the Templars at a local level via the Chantry, considering they collect annual dues from every estate, including the nobilities yearly you see a fortune going directly to the Templars.

Now spread this accross presumbly every chantry aligned with Lambert and then you have considerable resources going to them, Even if it isn't National support its considerable and this is presuming that the Nobility do not align with them rather then face the Mage threat alone.

Did you seriously just state that the Templars wouldn't attract the Nobility? The Nobility joins the Order, The Nobility contributes to and supports the Order that was true in Kirkwall and Fereldan. How many other places is it true? How many other Nations have the Templars gaining Finanicial, material and numerical aid? You have several citable cases of this in both games.

And moving on to dismiss your in my eye incorrect assumption that the Templars disregard the chantry as a whole.

Dragonage.wikia.com/wiki/Nearran_Accord

Note it clearly is addressed to not acknowledging Chantry Authority but the truth of it is clearly evident with his earlier statement of the divine being incapable. The Chantry as a whole was not mentioned, The Seekers and the Templars aligned under Lambert do not believe the divine as capable. That does not mean that they are willing to write off the entirity of the chantry.

The Accord was disolved but only because of the Divine; So if say a Grand Cleric supported the Templars you do believe that the Templars would just overlook that support? They would state we disavowed a thousand years of tradiation because the system we support failed us with a bad ruler? I doubt it, I think they would take any one who supported them over the Divine.

So you have the Chantry (Presumably regionally), the Nobility and the support of the Common man all sliding with the Templar order. I think their resources are greater then you would believe.

And who are they going to support? Most of them are not going to support the same group. Added, the ammount need to get lyrium ony a few major chantries can get. Yes a grand cleric can choose to support  the templar...But the question is which group of templars. That's my point.  They are that divided. An in the case of finaces, the people pay there taxes first, then the church. What happens is the state rule to no one to support the chantry?

And no the templars will not attack noblity. They don't have the support, finaces, or man power to. It would be starting a war. Remember the order is divided. To attack the noblity would risk having them be attacked on too many sides.
You need to understand that the templars are divided under different factions. Even if the factions get support the question to which one would get the most support from the chantry and how many chantries would defy the chantry. That mean we have muliple arms of the chantry fighting one another. No one has the majority of powers. If no one has the majority of power no one has any might close to facing a nation.
Everything lays in the hand of the ruling class not the chantry. Every side of the chantry lacks power, even with chantries supporting them.
Divided they have kno where near the resorces, might and power they have together. How can the pressure the ruling class like that?
Until any side of the chantry gain power, the ruling class can do what they want reguards to chantry law. They can even make it so that the chantry never gets the power they had before.

Your defense is that the Nobility would not tithe to the chantry? Viable i suppose if you didn't already have as i said before a mixture between the two groups.

I never stated the Templars would "attack" Nobility i suggest you reread my post.

I state they attract Nobility as in a Bannorn Lordlings Son in DAO as in a Noble if a minor in the ranks and file of the Templar, You have the same in DA2 in a Nobleman's Daughter. You have nobles, their children and their relatives among the Templars, supporting the Templars and funding the Templars.

My meaning and reasoning for bringing this up is that the Nobility in some instances ALREADY supports the Templar Order.

So my point was if you already have citable cases what is to prevent this from occuring elsewhere? What happens when the very thing you agrue doesn't happen, happens again? 

So if you have the Nobility on your side then obvious they have the very thing you state they need.

Luckily for them?

They already have it in some places.

[Merengues 1945]

Master Warder Z wrote...

Merengues 1945 wrote...

Master Warder Z wrote...

Merengues 1945 wrote...

Well, there's a problem, Grey Wardens are tough, certainly tougher than templars at any rate, They have a lot of power and men in the Anderfels and the respect of many societies (Dwarven kingdoms included)... Messing with them is tempting fate. Wardens oath is to fight the blight not humans, but a retaliation would seriously cripple the templars who without chantry support, lack access to some resources that the wardens can easily get.

Warden influence within the dwarves can be something to take on acount... As the only surfacers to fight the darkspawn, and with thousands of them fighting with them on the deep roads for ages, the dwarves have respect for them, even fondness. Wardens could convince them of not selling the lyrium to the templars or buying all the lyrium and see those bastards die from withdrawal.

You are joking right?

Orzamar ceasing its primary export to the surface?

The Dwarves respect the Wardens from Nobility to castless but here is the thing.

That's 70% percent of their trade income if not more.

That stops flowing? The Last Bastion of the Dwarves die, I doubt the Wardens enjoy THAT much favor.

There's more clients than just templars... As I said they could buy it and with the chantry in disarray surely the Magisters will be more than willing to buy a lot of lyrium. Without the chantry, I don't think templars have the funds to keep buying that sh*t for long, while wardens and magisters can surely do.

Nothing comparable to what they are losing.

The chantry controls the Trade topside and they are by far the largest buyer.

The thing of it is; You are assuming, apparently not alone in this belief that the entire chantry ceased support of the Templars when in truth thats doubtful to me. They likely still have backers and supporters and thus still have the wealth to buy it.

So i doubt this approach works.

Its clever i give you that if just not practical in my eye.

The templars and seekers cut all ties with the chantry when Lord Commander Lambert declared the Nevarran Accord null and void. Templars still require the gift from the stone to survive and mages require it for enchantments beyond an individual's reach. Surely the dwarves don't give a damn now about the chantry and will reap the benefits of the war... yet some groups have greater influence and deeper pockets, if provoked, the wardens know a way to squish the templars into submission and dwarves still got market for the gift of the stone... Remember, the templars have been around for several hundreds of years while the mages have been around for millenia... There will always be a market for the blue stone.

In the end it's just a way to hinder the templars... In an all-out-war, the wardens have a serious edge. They aren't only the best (they have three screenings; only the best get recruited, only the best survive the joining, and only the best survive the darkspawn) They also have a strong bond between them, to catch a mage you have to go trough their fellow wardens who are hardened by a permanent war against darkspawn (not only humans. Dwarves and Elves too) Wardens can rally support from places where templars don't... And They don't have a waekness... Just target the lyrium and done.

[leaguer of one]

Master Warder Z wrote...

leaguer of one wrote...

Master Warder Z wrote...



You think so? You have a number of Large chantries that collect considerable annual tithes that sounds like more then enough to afford monthly lyrium. For example lets state Starkhaven supported the Templars at a local level via the Chantry, considering they collect annual dues from every estate, including the nobilities yearly you see a fortune going directly to the Templars.

Now spread this accross presumbly every chantry aligned with Lambert and then you have considerable resources going to them, Even if it isn't National support its considerable and this is presuming that the Nobility do not align with them rather then face the Mage threat alone.

Did you seriously just state that the Templars wouldn't attract the Nobility? The Nobility joins the Order, The Nobility contributes to and supports the Order that was true in Kirkwall and Fereldan. How many other places is it true? How many other Nations have the Templars gaining Finanicial, material and numerical aid? You have several citable cases of this in both games.

And moving on to dismiss your in my eye incorrect assumption that the Templars disregard the chantry as a whole.

Dragonage.wikia.com/wiki/Nearran_Accord

Note it clearly is addressed to not acknowledging Chantry Authority but the truth of it is clearly evident with his earlier statement of the divine being incapable. The Chantry as a whole was not mentioned, The Seekers and the Templars aligned under Lambert do not believe the divine as capable. That does not mean that they are willing to write off the entirity of the chantry.

The Accord was disolved but only because of the Divine; So if say a Grand Cleric supported the Templars you do believe that the Templars would just overlook that support? They would state we disavowed a thousand years of tradiation because the system we support failed us with a bad ruler? I doubt it, I think they would take any one who supported them over the Divine.

So you have the Chantry (Presumably regionally), the Nobility and the support of the Common man all sliding with the Templar order. I think their resources are greater then you would believe.

And who are they going to support? Most of them are not going to support the same group. Added, the ammount need to get lyrium ony a few major chantries can get. Yes a grand cleric can choose to support  the templar...But the question is which group of templars. That's my point.  They are that divided. An in the case of finaces, the people pay there taxes first, then the church. What happens is the state rule to no one to support the chantry?

And no the templars will not attack noblity. They don't have the support, finaces, or man power to. It would be starting a war. Remember the order is divided. To attack the noblity would risk having them be attacked on too many sides.
You need to understand that the templars are divided under different factions. Even if the factions get support the question to which one would get the most support from the chantry and how many chantries would defy the chantry. That mean we have muliple arms of the chantry fighting one another. No one has the majority of powers. If no one has the majority of power no one has any might close to facing a nation.
Everything lays in the hand of the ruling class not the chantry. Every side of the chantry lacks power, even with chantries supporting them.
Divided they have kno where near the resorces, might and power they have together. How can the pressure the ruling class like that?
Until any side of the chantry gain power, the ruling class can do what they want reguards to chantry law. They can even make it so that the chantry never gets the power they had before.

Your defense is that the Nobility would not tithe to the chantry? Viable i suppose if you didn't already have as i said before a mixture between the two groups.

I never stated the Templars would "attack" Nobility i suggest you reread my post.

I state they attract Nobility as in a Bannorn Lordlings Son in DAO as in a Noble if a minor in the ranks and file of the Templar, You have the same in DA2 in a Nobleman's Daughter. You have nobles, their children and their relatives among the Templars, supporting the Templars and funding the Templars.

My meaning and reasoning for bringing this up is that the Nobility in some instances ALREADY supports the Templar Order.

So my point was if you already have citable cases what is to prevent this from occuring elsewhere? What happens when the very thing you agrue doesn't happen, happens again? 

So if you have the Nobility on your side then obvious they have the very thing you state they need.

Luckily for them?

They already have it in some places.

And those nobles are not the majority. The issue here is one of finace and resourse. Why would they take in part in a war with little coming back to them? That's what question they are going to ask the templars.  What would the get by siding with the templars. Just because some side with teh templars out of belief does not mean all will and even then the ones who do are pro chantry.
 I f they side with the templars, what do they get? Siding with the ages at this time when the chantry is at there weakest has benifits. Mages are a great resource in themselves. Templar are way to expensive in this war with them not being supported by the chantry being that they depend on lyrium. Added, if the dwarves are the merchants they are they will see this war to get as much money as they can get. The proce of lyrium is going to shyrocket. Divided as the templars and chantries are they are going to run out of resources if the fight this war divided.
Why would any noble would is not loyal to the chantry want get into that money sink with the templars?

[elfdwarf]

i'm glad most my wardens are Harrowmont supporter, keep the gates close .

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

TheKomandorShepard wrote...

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...


Seekers and templars can't really be depended on to put mages down. Especially not blood mages, and since  as I understand it the original discussion is whether or not Wardens can take Templars you can't assume that's not what they're facing. Since Uldred is absolutely not typical, my main point is that he's evidence that the Warden follows different rules than the rest of Thedas. (And Cassandra, since apparently she faced one too.) But you can't say the Templar contingent was a match for him. They were losing.

As for Olivia, she was incompetent. I suppose this really is evidence that mages aren't that tough (though it's far less evidence than I can give you that they're flat-out terrifying), but as I understand it the original argument was whether the Wardens could take the Templars. If you're not far more competent than Olivia, you don't qualify. Even without this, there's no evidence that Olivia was taught how to fight.

But templars and especially seekers can kill mage easily harder if we speak about blood mage and much harder if about abomnation.And well yes templars can handle wardens but it depends on the circumstances if their mages start turn into ambomnations well i doubt it they could handle this besides their mages are minority because they can recruit only one at time.Yes they were losing because uldred was pride demon and as i said pride demons are extremely powerful.But i m not sure about who you are talking about the warden vs templars (?) or pride demon (uldred) vs templars.

What I'm saying by citing Uldred is that mages being weak in gameplay isn't really evidence of weakness, since the Warden is clearly so powerful as to follow separate sets of rules. The reason Uldred is evidence of this is that four people are not supposed to be anything resembling a match for him.

I realize that Wardens were said to only be allowed one mage at a time, but they clearly don't always listen to that rule. Mages are still a minority, but they have more of them than most organizations.

And as everyone else is covering, it's really shaky to say that Wardens need abominations to handle Templars. They already have non-mages powerful enough to survive the Joining, and the Wardens have repeatedly proven to be stronger than their numbers. (This is assuming the Templars can even find a large number of their own who are willing to attack the Wardens.) Plus, they already have blood mages. Saying that Blood magic makes a Templar's job harder is an understatement. Duncan once chanced upon a blood mage slaughtering Templars. One Templar survived, and that was because he attacked from behind and killed in one hit. And there are spells to block that.

another example is sketch

Try fleshing out this argument. Assume I haven't played Leiliana's song.

Well mages aren't harmless teddy bears and can do some harm but party starts only if mage become abomnation then they are rly dangerous.And again i will use Senior Enchanter who can't handle few spiders in magi origin.

She is new at her job, and if memory serves her superiors are already questioning her competence. I'm pretty sure this isn't what Senior Enchanters are meant to look like.

Modifié par Riverdaleswhiteflash, 15 septembre 2013 - 01:31 .

[Master Warder Z_]

leaguer of one wrote...

Master Warder Z wrote...

leaguer of one wrote...

Master Warder Z wrote...



You think so? You have a number of Large chantries that collect considerable annual tithes that sounds like more then enough to afford monthly lyrium. For example lets state Starkhaven supported the Templars at a local level via the Chantry, considering they collect annual dues from every estate, including the nobilities yearly you see a fortune going directly to the Templars.

Now spread this accross presumbly every chantry aligned with Lambert and then you have considerable resources going to them, Even if it isn't National support its considerable and this is presuming that the Nobility do not align with them rather then face the Mage threat alone.

Did you seriously just state that the Templars wouldn't attract the Nobility? The Nobility joins the Order, The Nobility contributes to and supports the Order that was true in Kirkwall and Fereldan. How many other places is it true? How many other Nations have the Templars gaining Finanicial, material and numerical aid? You have several citable cases of this in both games.

And moving on to dismiss your in my eye incorrect assumption that the Templars disregard the chantry as a whole.

Dragonage.wikia.com/wiki/Nearran_Accord

Note it clearly is addressed to not acknowledging Chantry Authority but the truth of it is clearly evident with his earlier statement of the divine being incapable. The Chantry as a whole was not mentioned, The Seekers and the Templars aligned under Lambert do not believe the divine as capable. That does not mean that they are willing to write off the entirity of the chantry.

The Accord was disolved but only because of the Divine; So if say a Grand Cleric supported the Templars you do believe that the Templars would just overlook that support? They would state we disavowed a thousand years of tradiation because the system we support failed us with a bad ruler? I doubt it, I think they would take any one who supported them over the Divine.

So you have the Chantry (Presumably regionally), the Nobility and the support of the Common man all sliding with the Templar order. I think their resources are greater then you would believe.

And who are they going to support? Most of them are not going to support the same group. Added, the ammount need to get lyrium ony a few major chantries can get. Yes a grand cleric can choose to support  the templar...But the question is which group of templars. That's my point.  They are that divided. An in the case of finaces, the people pay there taxes first, then the church. What happens is the state rule to no one to support the chantry?

And no the templars will not attack noblity. They don't have the support, finaces, or man power to. It would be starting a war. Remember the order is divided. To attack the noblity would risk having them be attacked on too many sides.
You need to understand that the templars are divided under different factions. Even if the factions get support the question to which one would get the most support from the chantry and how many chantries would defy the chantry. That mean we have muliple arms of the chantry fighting one another. No one has the majority of powers. If no one has the majority of power no one has any might close to facing a nation.
Everything lays in the hand of the ruling class not the chantry. Every side of the chantry lacks power, even with chantries supporting them.
Divided they have kno where near the resorces, might and power they have together. How can the pressure the ruling class like that?
Until any side of the chantry gain power, the ruling class can do what they want reguards to chantry law. They can even make it so that the chantry never gets the power they had before.

Your defense is that the Nobility would not tithe to the chantry? Viable i suppose if you didn't already have as i said before a mixture between the two groups.

I never stated the Templars would "attack" Nobility i suggest you reread my post.

I state they attract Nobility as in a Bannorn Lordlings Son in DAO as in a Noble if a minor in the ranks and file of the Templar, You have the same in DA2 in a Nobleman's Daughter. You have nobles, their children and their relatives among the Templars, supporting the Templars and funding the Templars.

My meaning and reasoning for bringing this up is that the Nobility in some instances ALREADY supports the Templar Order.

So my point was if you already have citable cases what is to prevent this from occuring elsewhere? What happens when the very thing you agrue doesn't happen, happens again? 

So if you have the Nobility on your side then obvious they have the very thing you state they need.

Luckily for them?

They already have it in some places.

And those nobles are not the majority. The issue here is one of finace and resourse. Why would they take in part in a war with little coming back to them? That's what question they are going to ask the templars.  What would the get by siding with the templars. Just because some side with teh templars out of belief does not mean all will and even then the ones who do are pro chantry.
 I f they side with the templars, what do they get? Siding with the ages at this time when the chantry is at there weakest has benifits. Mages are a great resource in themselves. Templar are way to expensive in this war with them not being supported by the chantry being that they depend on lyrium. Added, if the dwarves are the merchants they are they will see this war to get as much money as they can get. The proce of lyrium is going to shyrocket. Divided as the templars and chantries are they are going to run out of resources if the fight this war divided.
Why would any noble would is not loyal to the chantry want get into that money sink with the templars?

Why would any Noble not loyal to the Chantry seek aid from Mages? The Nobility presented as far as both games, the comics, the books and the Animated show are concerned are decided not pro magic, nor mage. You are speaking of a situation that goes DEEPLY against human held belief, even if you don't buy into the Chantry Cultural stigma aside you likely would find your fellow Nobles turning against you for such a transgression.

Which sort of proves my point; The Culture, the Beliefs and History all support my points the Nobility, Chantry or no will support the Templars because they have been the Baliwick against Magical forces against the common man for a thousand years and people realize that.

And what do they get? Security, Protection and Benidiction.

The Chantry is divided certainly but its Templars are far from weak.

The Wealthiest, Most Infleuntial and Powerful Nations are decidedly not Pro Magic, If they sense the threat of magic approaching them why would they not turn to their ardent defenders? Its a logical step. Kirkwall proved that Mages pushed can turn cities into Warzones, Now say if the Mages actually had a Kingdom supporting them besides the Imperium that might erode some of that aniexty but unforunately for Mages.

Outside of the Imperium the Mages are not premitted political power, They are not allowed political voice and most importantly are generally distrusted by both Nobility and commoner alike.

The Templars on the other hand? They have a thousand years of reptuation working for them, The Mages have a thousand years of suspision and threat posed.

[Master Warder Z_]

Merengues 1945 wrote...

Master Warder Z wrote...

Merengues 1945 wrote...

Master Warder Z wrote...

Merengues 1945 wrote...

Well, there's a problem, Grey Wardens are tough, certainly tougher than templars at any rate, They have a lot of power and men in the Anderfels and the respect of many societies (Dwarven kingdoms included)... Messing with them is tempting fate. Wardens oath is to fight the blight not humans, but a retaliation would seriously cripple the templars who without chantry support, lack access to some resources that the wardens can easily get.

Warden influence within the dwarves can be something to take on acount... As the only surfacers to fight the darkspawn, and with thousands of them fighting with them on the deep roads for ages, the dwarves have respect for them, even fondness. Wardens could convince them of not selling the lyrium to the templars or buying all the lyrium and see those bastards die from withdrawal.

You are joking right?

Orzamar ceasing its primary export to the surface?

The Dwarves respect the Wardens from Nobility to castless but here is the thing.

That's 70% percent of their trade income if not more.

That stops flowing? The Last Bastion of the Dwarves die, I doubt the Wardens enjoy THAT much favor.

There's more clients than just templars... As I said they could buy it and with the chantry in disarray surely the Magisters will be more than willing to buy a lot of lyrium. Without the chantry, I don't think templars have the funds to keep buying that sh*t for long, while wardens and magisters can surely do.

Nothing comparable to what they are losing.

The chantry controls the Trade topside and they are by far the largest buyer.

The thing of it is; You are assuming, apparently not alone in this belief that the entire chantry ceased support of the Templars when in truth thats doubtful to me. They likely still have backers and supporters and thus still have the wealth to buy it.

So i doubt this approach works.

Its clever i give you that if just not practical in my eye.

The templars and seekers cut all ties with the chantry when Lord Commander Lambert declared the Nevarran Accord null and void. Templars still require the gift from the stone to survive and mages require it for enchantments beyond an individual's reach. Surely the dwarves don't give a damn now about the chantry and will reap the benefits of the war... yet some groups have greater influence and deeper pockets, if provoked, the wardens know a way to squish the templars into submission and dwarves still got market for the gift of the stone... Remember, the templars have been around for several hundreds of years while the mages have been around for millenia... There will always be a market for the blue stone.

In the end it's just a way to hinder the templars... In an all-out-war, the wardens have a serious edge. They aren't only the best (they have three screenings; only the best get recruited, only the best survive the joining, and only the best survive the darkspawn) They also have a strong bond between them, to catch a mage you have to go trough their fellow wardens who are hardened by a permanent war against darkspawn (not only humans. Dwarves and Elves too) Wardens can rally support from places where templars don't... And They don't have a waekness... Just target the lyrium and done.

That is an assumption and one i assume is incorrect personally considering the Templars and Seekers both still follow their teachings, believe in their cause but do not approve of the methods of the woman sitting upon the Sunburst throne.

Therefore i do believe that Chantries that would not support the Divine, Namely because she is not popular even among her own kind would support the Templars and Seekers both.

Furthermore the Wardens in most places aren't wealthy beyond all measure, They are small pockets of a few hundred or dozen people regionally supported by the Nation. The Templars on the other hand? They have been funded by the Chantry which has a presence all across Thedas, all fifteen circles, all fifteen knight commanders have been funded by the Chantry.

You think that Wealth suddenly gets cut off? Oh no, no i would be definately surprised if that was the case. The Templars need the resources of the Chantry, but they do not need the current Divine. I believe they have supporters and detractors, i just personally believe they have more support then opposition considering their reputation, history and connections.

And in all out war? The Templars outnumber every Warden Outpost, fortress and holding in Thedas.

You have fifty skilled warriors but against a thousand? They still lose, You can have as skilled a defender as you like but cases like the Vigil show how it doesn't matter against a Deterimined foe. Wardens can fall just like any other man. And Seekers and Templars are products of training, expreince and history. They fight comparable horrors to the Wardens and you have scores of Veterans among them.

Yes you have a lesser selection and training then the Wardens but due to the Orders Wealth, Size and Regional Power? I really don't see it.

You could in theory i suppose try what you propose but i doubt strongly the Merchant Caste would cut off the Templars when they are literally the Primary buyers of Lyrium. As long as they can pay they will recieve it and that is about the end of it.

And the Templars have been the Primary buyers for Lyrium in most of Thedas for a thousand Years.

They literally have a stronghold on the Market, I just assume that they would control that end themselves now with the Chantry in schism once more.

[leaguer of one]

Master Warder Z wrote...


Why would any Noble not loyal to the Chantry seek aid from Mages? The Nobility presented as far as both games, the comics, the books and the Animated show are concerned are decided not pro magic, nor mage. You are speaking of a situation that goes DEEPLY against human held belief, even if you don't buy into the Chantry Cultural stigma aside you likely would find your fellow Nobles turning against you for such a transgression.

Which sort of proves my point; The Culture, the Beliefs and History all support my points the Nobility, Chantry or no will support the Templars because they have been the Baliwick against Magical forces against the common man for a thousand years and people realize that.

And what do they get? Security, Protection and Benidiction.

The Chantry is divided certainly but its Templars are far from weak.

The Wealthiest, Most Infleuntial and Powerful Nations are decidedly not Pro Magic, If they sense the threat of magic approaching them why would they not turn to their ardent defenders? Its a logical step. Kirkwall proved that Mages pushed can turn cities into Warzones, Now say if the Mages actually had a Kingdom supporting them besides the Imperium that might erode some of that aniexty but unforunately for Mages.

Outside of the Imperium the Mages are not premitted political power, They are not allowed political voice and most importantly are generally distrusted by both Nobility and commoner alike.

The Templars on the other hand? They have a thousand years of reptuation working for them, The Mages have a thousand years of suspision and threat posed.

Why would a nobily not loyal to the chantry not want to support a group that are one man armies and one man hospitals who can turn the tide of any battle and stop qunari inavations?

Really are you asking me this questions. It answers it self. They would support thr mage because they are valued resources in battles, wars and healing.
Asking why someone would side with  a mage over a templar is like asking why someone would pick a machine gun over a muzzle loading rifle.

The Wealthiest, Most Infleuntial and Powerful Nations are  not ageinst magic, especially when they know what it can do in war. They only side with the most power, which is the chantry. And the chantry lost all there power in this divide. They are not going to be ageinst magic because magic because the chantry says so and eventhing they know about mylitary logic says the mages are too good a resource to pass up. The would be blind fools too.

Reptuation means not to mylitary logic. And the nobles have that. They are not going to side with a group thats a money sink over a group that has the most benefits.

[Master Warder Z_]

leaguer of one wrote...

Master Warder Z wrote...


Why would any Noble not loyal to the Chantry seek aid from Mages? The Nobility presented as far as both games, the comics, the books and the Animated show are concerned are decided not pro magic, nor mage. You are speaking of a situation that goes DEEPLY against human held belief, even if you don't buy into the Chantry Cultural stigma aside you likely would find your fellow Nobles turning against you for such a transgression.

Which sort of proves my point; The Culture, the Beliefs and History all support my points the Nobility, Chantry or no will support the Templars because they have been the Baliwick against Magical forces against the common man for a thousand years and people realize that.

And what do they get? Security, Protection and Benidiction.

The Chantry is divided certainly but its Templars are far from weak.

The Wealthiest, Most Infleuntial and Powerful Nations are decidedly not Pro Magic, If they sense the threat of magic approaching them why would they not turn to their ardent defenders? Its a logical step. Kirkwall proved that Mages pushed can turn cities into Warzones, Now say if the Mages actually had a Kingdom supporting them besides the Imperium that might erode some of that aniexty but unforunately for Mages.

Outside of the Imperium the Mages are not premitted political power, They are not allowed political voice and most importantly are generally distrusted by both Nobility and commoner alike.

The Templars on the other hand? They have a thousand years of reptuation working for them, The Mages have a thousand years of suspision and threat posed.

Why would a nobily not loyal to the chantry not want to support a group that are one man armies and one man hospitals who can turn the tide of any battle and stop qunari inavations?

Really are you asking me this questions. It answers it self. They would support thr mage because they are valued resources in battles, wars and healing.
Asking why someone would side with  a mage over a templar is like asking why someone would pick a machine gun over a muzzle loading rifle.

The Wealthiest, Most Infleuntial and Powerful Nations are  not ageinst magic, especially when they know what it can do in war. They only side with the most power, which is the chantry. And the chantry lost all there power in this divide. They are not going to be ageinst magic because magic because the chantry says so and eventhing they know about mylitary logic says the mages are too good a resource to pass up. The would be blind fools too.

Reptuation means not to mylitary logic. And the nobles have that. They are not going to side with a group thats a money sink over a group that has the most benefits.

So you basically just blantantly ignore the attidude towards Magic? The Threat posed by and its history in DA?

You really need to learn how much the Chantry plays into Daily life, How much it effects the viewpoints and beliefs of their people. The Circle was formed due to that belief, as were the Templar order and that was the reason the Seekers joined the Chantry.

Your ill concieved logic aside you do have a point; Magic is useful and many people would agree with that. That said having a pet mage in an army is one thing, Having a Horde of them demanding freedom, power and political voice is another.

It violates a very old notion of how magic should be viewed, And you would literally need to turn your back on what makes Human culture, Human culture in DA to do that.

So you can keep your Notions and Conviction but it doesn't sway me and i am fairly open minded when it comes to many things DA.

But when it goes against written Lore, Canon and Storyboard presented...Well lets just say i take Gaider or the Dev team's word over yours.

Modifié par Master Warder Z , 15 septembre 2013 - 01:53 .

[cjones91]

@Master Warder Z What do you think the common people/nobility will do when the templars raid their villages/provinces because the templars needed money for their lyrium addiction?What makes you think any ruler would want to support a rogue militia that betrayed the Divine?

Anti mage sentiment only goes so far when the common people have to fear having their homes ransacked by a bunch of lyrium deprived men and women.

[TheKomandorShepard]

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...

What I'm saying by citing Uldred is that mages being weak in gameplay isn't really evidence of weakness, since the Warden is clearly so powerful as to follow separate sets of rules. The reason Uldred is evidence of this is that four people are not supposed to be anything resembling a match for him.

I realize that Wardens were said to only be allowed one mage at a time, but they clearly don't always listen to that rule. Mages are still a minority, but they have more of them than most organizations.

And as everyone else is covering, it's really shaky to say that Wardens need abominations to handle Templars. They already have non-mages powerful enough to survive the Joining, and the Wardens have repeatedly proven to be stronger than their numbers. (This is assuming the Templars can even find a large number of their own who are willing to attack the Wardens.) Plus, they already have blood mages. Saying that Blood magic makes a Templar's job harder is an understatement. Duncan once chanced upon a blood mage slaughtering Templars. One Templar survived, and that was because he attacked from behind and killed in one hit. And there are spells to block that.

Well mages aren't weak in gameplay they are powerful in gameplay but weak in universe (but sometimes they try convince that they are) unless we talk about blood mages and real power as abomnation but here that depends what kind of demon possessed mage. And even if they have few more mages in organization still doesn't change
that mage (who is weak without blood magic) even blood mage can't handle army.Wardens are excellent warriors but templars also and they outnumber wardens and some of them now also have red lyrium (we don't know how many).But if templars don't get lyrium i doubt that they will have power to defeat wardens.As i said i don't question that blood mages are powerful but still i doubt that numbers of mages that wardens have and i bet that not everyone is blood mage could handle templars.  

another example is sketch

Try fleshing out this argument. Assume I haven't played Leiliana's song.

It isn't about leliana song more about da 2 where we can see him but yes we can take example from ls where sketch is surrounded by few guards and have another warrior who is helping him and is forced to give up.But we don't know how rly leliana song reflects what happened because leliana is narrator and we know that bards like make up things.Example from da 2 is when he can't handle various groups that want to kill him so he is forced to run and be on hawke mercy.

Well mages aren't harmless teddy bears and can do some harm but party starts only if mage become abomnation then they are rly dangerous.And again i will use Senior Enchanter who can't handle few spiders in magi origin.

She is new at her job, and if memory serves her superiors are already questioning her competence. I'm pretty sure this isn't what Senior Enchanters are meant to look like.

perhaps but still a lot of this examples.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

Master Warder Z wrote...

So you basically just blantantly ignore the attidude towards Magic? The Threat posed by and its history in DA?

You really need to learn how much the Chantry plays into Daily life, How much it effects the viewpoints and beliefs of their people. The Circle was formed due to that belief, as were the Templar order and that was the reason the Seekers joined the Chantry.

Your ill concieved logic aside you do have a point; Magic is useful and many people would agree with that. That said having a pet mage in an army is one thing, Having a Horde of them demanding freedom, power and political voice is another.

It violates a very old notion of how magic should be viewed, And you would literally need to turn your back on what makes Human culture, Human culture in DA to do that.

So you can keep your Notions and Conviction but doesn't sway and me and i am fairly open minded when it comes to many things DA.

But when it goes against written Lore, Canon and Storyboard presented...Well lets just say i take Gaider or the Dev team's word over yours.

Yes, but notwithstanding that you're right in that the whole Chantry won't go along with the Divine, I'd say large portions of it will declare that Lambert is overstepping his bounds. Which means that the Templars will have a less easy time using the goodwill that the Chantry has accrued. The Templars will have accrued some of their own, of course, but they can't depend on having more than the Chantry, if that's relevant.

Then there's the fact that sympathy for mages is rising. The default Hawke is a mage, and he saved Kirkwall from the Qunari. The Warden saved all of Ferelden, and he might have been a mage. Alistair might be king, and he sympathizes with mages and against Templars regardless of any of that. Neither of you can simply take as read that the Thedasian arisotcracy as a whole will come down on either side. (Except in Tevinter. of course.)

[leaguer of one]

Master Warder Z wrote...



So you basically just blantantly ignore the attidude towards Magic? The Threat posed by and its history in DA?

You really need to learn how much the Chantry plays into Daily life, How much it effects the viewpoints and beliefs of their people. The Circle was formed due to that belief, as were the Templar order and that was the reason the Seekers joined the Chantry.

Your ill concieved logic aside you do have a point; Magic is useful and many people would agree with that. That said having a pet mage in an army is one thing, Having a Horde of them demanding freedom, power and political voice is another.

It violates a very old notion of how magic should be viewed, And you would literally need to turn your back on what makes Human culture, Human culture in DA to do that.

So you can keep your Notions and Conviction but doesn't sway and me and i am fairly open minded when it comes to many things DA.

But when it goes against written Lore, Canon and Storyboard presented...Well lets just say i take Gaider or the Dev team's word over yours.

It not an issue of ignoring the fear of magic. It's an understanding that it's not a blind fear. The nobility does not have the same fear of magic as the common folk. They see it as just a resource. If you see how the orlisians and Navarrian deal with it you would clearly see that. In fact many places have mages part of the court. Ferelidin has them part of the court, as well as Orlais, Navarra, and Antiva.  Only the commoners have a fear of magic but they don't count on who is gaining support, the nobles are.
If anything it you who are not grasping how nobles see magic.
It an issue of mylitary  and resorce logic. Some will side with the ttemplars out of loyalty, the question then come to which templer faction. The rest will side with the ones the benifits them the most and the mages are just that.

Modifié par leaguer of one, 15 septembre 2013 - 01:59 .

[cjones91]

Master Warder Z wrote...

leaguer of one wrote...

Master Warder Z wrote...


Why would any Noble not loyal to the Chantry seek aid from Mages? The Nobility presented as far as both games, the comics, the books and the Animated show are concerned are decided not pro magic, nor mage. You are speaking of a situation that goes DEEPLY against human held belief, even if you don't buy into the Chantry Cultural stigma aside you likely would find your fellow Nobles turning against you for such a transgression.

Which sort of proves my point; The Culture, the Beliefs and History all support my points the Nobility, Chantry or no will support the Templars because they have been the Baliwick against Magical forces against the common man for a thousand years and people realize that.

And what do they get? Security, Protection and Benidiction.

The Chantry is divided certainly but its Templars are far from weak.

The Wealthiest, Most Infleuntial and Powerful Nations are decidedly not Pro Magic, If they sense the threat of magic approaching them why would they not turn to their ardent defenders? Its a logical step. Kirkwall proved that Mages pushed can turn cities into Warzones, Now say if the Mages actually had a Kingdom supporting them besides the Imperium that might erode some of that aniexty but unforunately for Mages.

Outside of the Imperium the Mages are not premitted political power, They are not allowed political voice and most importantly are generally distrusted by both Nobility and commoner alike.

The Templars on the other hand? They have a thousand years of reptuation working for them, The Mages have a thousand years of suspision and threat posed.

Why would a nobily not loyal to the chantry not want to support a group that are one man armies and one man hospitals who can turn the tide of any battle and stop qunari inavations?

Really are you asking me this questions. It answers it self. They would support thr mage because they are valued resources in battles, wars and healing.
Asking why someone would side with  a mage over a templar is like asking why someone would pick a machine gun over a muzzle loading rifle.

The Wealthiest, Most Infleuntial and Powerful Nations are  not ageinst magic, especially when they know what it can do in war. They only side with the most power, which is the chantry. And the chantry lost all there power in this divide. They are not going to be ageinst magic because magic because the chantry says so and eventhing they know about mylitary logic says the mages are too good a resource to pass up. The would be blind fools too.

Reptuation means not to mylitary logic. And the nobles have that. They are not going to side with a group thats a money sink over a group that has the most benefits.

So you basically just blantantly ignore the attidude towards Magic? The Threat posed by and its history in DA?

You really need to learn how much the Chantry plays into Daily life, How much it effects the viewpoints and beliefs of their people. The Circle was formed due to that belief, as were the Templar order and that was the reason the Seekers joined the Chantry.

Your ill concieved logic aside you do have a point; Magic is useful and many people would agree with that. That said having a pet mage in an army is one thing, Having a Horde of them demanding freedom, power and political voice is another.

It violates a very old notion of how magic should be viewed, And you would literally need to turn your back on what makes Human culture, Human culture in DA to do that.

So you can keep your Notions and Conviction but it doesn't sway me and i am fairly open minded when it comes to many things DA.

But when it goes against written Lore, Canon and Storyboard presented...Well lets just say i take Gaider or the Dev team's word over yours.

More mages are being born every day,many people are very sympathetic to mages and considering most probaly have relatives that are mages, they will resent the group that takes their loved ones away from them.Besides anti mage sentiment will start diminishing sooner or later and mages will be welcomed among society.

[Master Warder Z_]

cjones91 wrote...

@Master Warder Z What do you think the common people/nobility will do when the templars raid their villages/provinces because the templars needed money for their lyrium addiction?What makes you think any ruler would want to support a rogue militia that betrayed the Divine?

Anti mage sentiment only goes so far when the common people have to fear having their homes ransacked by a bunch of lyrium deprived men and women.

And what happens when three or four Grand Clerics state the Divine is corrupted or too weak for her assigned Task by the Maker? What happens when the schism offers differing voices? One side of the Chantry voices support for the Templars? 

What do you think the Devout would believe? That the Commoners and Nobility would believe? That the Divine condones the Mage rebellion and the Templars need your aid or that the Templars out of spite despite a thousand years of protecting you are now looting you to pay for magic crack.

Give that five seconds of thought please.

And i agree but Anti Magic sentiment is wide spread and old; Its something that cannot be countered in a few years or months or weeks by the spouting of a divine many within her own order already consider a traitor.

So you have elements of the chantry that support the current Path, whether or not they outnumber the Divine's faction? We don't know but the point of it is whomever is speaking to the Locals likely will sway them.