379 réponses à ce sujet

[Fast Jimmy]

Navasha wrote...

Fast Jimmy wrote...

Reaverwind wrote...

Star fury wrote...

Why not qunari then? They tend to control people even better, especially mages.

Yep. You want control - see the Qunari. They know how to handle mages. 

From what we know, the Qunari have better healthcare, technology and quality of life than any other nation in Thedas. We haven't seen much of their culture, to be fair, but there is a strong argument to be made there, as well. 

That's kind of the same silly argument Seival is making....   Slavery is slavery.   There is no such thing as a quality of life when you are slave.   I can see the advertisement now..

"Come!  Join the Qunari collective.   As a slave to our way of thinking you will enjoy great medical benefits!  
(small print:   provided your benefit to society is greater than the resources it would take to keep you alive... then we kill you)

You call if slavery. The Qunari do not. The highest members of their order are just as bound by the Qun as the lowest citizen. They do not live in excess or with privilege. They do not abuse their power, but view any position, high or low, as simply as the role they have been assigned by the Qun.

DA2 showed us that even the Sarebaas, which are abused, controlled and demeaned, are just as devoted and unflinching in their support of the ideals, even to the point of death by their own hand. Can many societies in Thedas say the same? That their Mages believe in their method of treatment, nor that their leaders do not live in standing or comfort better than their Mages? 

Modifié par Fast Jimmy, 14 septembre 2013 - 11:21 .

[Xilizhra]

You call if slavery. The Qunari do not. The highest members of their order are just as bound by the Qun as the lowest citizen. They do not live in excess or with privilege. They do not abuse their power, but view any position, high or low, as simply as the role they have been assigned by the Qun.

Keep in mind that we've never seen Qunadar and don't know if all qunari propaganda is true. And if it is... so what? It just means that everyone's a slave, rulers included.

DA2 showed us that even the Sarebaas, which are abused, controlled and demeaned, are just as devoted and unflinching in their support of the ideals, even to the point of death by their own hand. Can many societies in Thedas say the same? That their Mages believe in their method of treatment, nor that their leaders do not live in standing or comfort better than their Mages?

Oh, yes, because abused, depressive Stockholm Syndrome sufferers are such a great barometer.

[Seival]

RazorrX wrote...

Since love and fear can hardly exist together, if we must choose between them, it is far safer to be feared than loved.

Niccolo Machiavelli - 'The Prince'

Love and fear can hardly exist together? On the contrary, they co-exist quite well... You love someone, and at the same time you constantly fear something bad may happen to the one you love. Quite a tight co-existence, don't you think so? And if you have no fears about your beloved one, then your love exists just in your imagination.

Modifié par Seival, 14 septembre 2013 - 11:13 .

[In Exile]

Xilizhra wrote...
Oh, yes, because abused, depressive Stockholm Syndrome sufferers are such a great barometer.

Quibble: It's not Stockholm Syndrome when you've brought up into the cult and indoctrinated into its beliefs.

Fast Jimmy wrote...
DA2 showed us that even the Sarebaas, which are abused, controlled and demeaned, are just as devoted and unflinching in their support of the ideals, even to the point of death by their own hand. Can many societies in Thedas say the same? That their Mages believe in their method of treatment, nor that their leaders do not live in standing or comfort better than their Mages? 

But that's precisely the Qunari propaganda. They give off the impression that there is no dissent in their ranks because they purge it so viciously and violently that they'd make Stanlinist Russia look away in shame.

We saw that the Arishok's men were plagued by dessertion. But the Qunari say Tal-Vasoth are not and never were Qunari, so there was no loss. 

Modifié par In Exile, 14 septembre 2013 - 11:21 .

[Xilizhra]

In Exile wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...
Oh, yes, because abused, depressive Stockholm Syndrome sufferers are such a great barometer.

Quibble: It's not Stockholm Syndrome when you've brought up into the cult and indoctrinated into its beliefs.

Very well.

[In Exile]

Xilizhra wrote...

Very well.

I'm not trying to be snarky. It's one thing when a victim is - out of fear for her life - identifying with her captor. It's a whole other level of abuse when you beat someone down every day of their life and raise them with the belief and expectation that being lead around on a literal leash is just and moral. 

[Xilizhra]

In Exile wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

Very well.

I'm not trying to be snarky. It's one thing when a victim is - out of fear for her life - identifying with her captor. It's a whole other level of abuse when you beat someone down every day of their life and raise them with the belief and expectation that being lead around on a literal leash is just and moral. 

I wasn't accusing you of being snarky. I understand now.

[In Exile]

Xilizhra wrote...
I wasn't accusing you of being snarky. I understand now.

Apologies. I just can't help but read "very well" in a kind of... grudging acknowledgement? It's totally a failure on my part. 

[dragonflight288]

In Exile wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...
I wasn't accusing you of being snarky. I understand now.

Apologies. I just can't help but read "very well" in a kind of... grudging acknowledgement? It's totally a failure on my part. 

That's the problem with the internet, my friend...acquaintence....whatever. It's tough to tell the intended inflection of the statement.

[DarkKnightHolmes]

Works for me.

More ways to Roleplay, the better.

[Xilizhra]

In Exile wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...
I wasn't accusing you of being snarky. I understand now.

Apologies. I just can't help but read "very well" in a kind of... grudging acknowledgement? It's totally a failure on my part. 

My manner of speech is frequently on the more-formal-than-many side; some would say pedantic. It's just how I talk, for whatever reason.

[In Exile]

Xilizhra wrote...
My manner of speech is frequently on the more-formal-than-many side; some would say pedantic. It's just how I talk, for whatever reason.

I'd only use formal speech in a professional setting or where upset, hence my misread. 

[Fast Jimmy]

In Exile wrote...

Fast Jimmy wrote...
DA2 showed us that even the Sarebaas, which are abused, controlled and demeaned, are just as devoted and unflinching in their support of the ideals, even to the point of death by their own hand. Can many societies in Thedas say the same? That their Mages believe in their method of treatment, nor that their leaders do not live in standing or comfort better than their Mages? 

But that's precisely the Qunari propaganda. They give off the impression that there is no dissent in their ranks because they purge it so viciously and violently that they'd make Stanlinist Russia look away in shame.

We saw that the Arishok's men were plagued by dessertion. But the Qunari say Tal-Vasoth are not and never were Qunari, so there was no loss. 

Okay... so does any other system have zero forms of resistance against the system? Every bandit, blood Mage and criminal in Thedas says hello.

Yes, the Qun has rebels. Yes, they deal with them brusquely, either through violent elimination or outright exile. How many "bad" humans, elves and dwarves have our heroes killed, who would have been labeled as Tal'Vashoth under the Qun? They solve most of their own problems, though, instead of leaving them to fester and cause harm to the rest of the world, like nearly every other Thedosian system does. 

[In Exile]

Fast Jimmy wrote...
Okay... so does any other system have zero forms of resistance against the system? Every bandit, blood Mage and criminal in Thedas says hello.

Yes, the Qun has rebels. Yes, they deal with them brusquely, either through violent elimination or outright exile. How many "bad" humans, elves and dwarves have our heroes killed, who would have been labeled as Tal'Vashoth under the Qun? They solve most of their own problems, though, instead of leaving them to fester and cause harm to the rest of the world, like nearly every other Thedosian system does. 

I wasn't trying to use the Tal-Vasoth as an example that the Qun has more dissidents than any other system. Just that we can necessarily conclued how cohesive their society is or how comitted their people are to the Qun without knowing just how many they lose as Tal-Vasoth every year. 

I get the appeal of the Qun to converts. 

[Xilizhra]

Okay... so does any other system have zero forms of resistance against the system? Every bandit, blood Mage and criminal in Thedas says hello.

Yes, but the Qun claims, more or less, to be perfect, so cracks in it more or less immediately show the weakness of its premise.

Yes, the Qun has rebels. Yes, they deal with them brusquely, either through violent elimination or outright exile. How many "bad" humans, elves and dwarves have our heroes killed, who would have been labeled as Tal'Vashoth under the Qun? They solve most of their own problems, though, instead of leaving them to fester and cause harm to the rest of the world, like nearly every other Thedosian system does.

Yes, instead just giving the entirety of Thedas their problem entitled "holy war."

[In Exile]

Xilizhra wrote...
Yes, but the Qun claims, more or less, to be perfect, so cracks in it more or less immediately show the weakness of its premise.

That's just the No True Scotsman fallacy as a belief system. 

[Xilizhra]

In Exile wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...
Yes, but the Qun claims, more or less, to be perfect, so cracks in it more or less immediately show the weakness of its premise.

That's just the No True Scotsman fallacy as a belief system. 

Actually, I just remembered that that's exactly what they do, with the whole "Tal-Vashoth are weakness leaving the Qun" thing. Or something along those lines.

[Fast Jimmy]

Xilizhra wrote...

Okay... so does any other system have zero forms of resistance against the system? Every bandit, blood Mage and criminal in Thedas says hello.

Yes, but the Qun claims, more or less, to be perfect, so cracks in it more or less immediately show the weakness of its premise.

I, personally, could care less about the actual philosophy or propaganda of the religion. Just that it does have results that are far too often not given any consideration. 

Yes, the Qun has rebels. Yes, they deal with them brusquely, either through violent elimination or outright exile. How many "bad" humans, elves and dwarves have our heroes killed, who would have been labeled as Tal'Vashoth under the Qun? They solve most of their own problems, though, instead of leaving them to fester and cause harm to the rest of the world, like nearly every other Thedosian system does.

Yes, instead just giving the entirety of Thedas their problem entitled "holy war."

Is it possible that their war threats are simply hot air? It would be a viable tactic to keep the world afraid of you - just threaten to conquer everything and every one whenever you get the chance. I doubt this is the case, but still... you can't judge an entire society simply because they threaten war. It has been centuries since the Qunari have been the instigators of a violent war. Which, again... how many other Thedosian systems can claim that?

[Xilizhra]

I, personally, could care less about the actual philosophy or propaganda of the religion. Just that it does have results that are far too often not given any consideration.

We know that qunari society has certain advances. We do not know that the qunari developed them, and given that they're still using ship-level gunpowder and have no handguns three hundred years later, it seems likely that they did not. Their society doesn't seem like it encourages innovation.

Is it possible that their war threats are simply hot air? It would be a viable tactic to keep the world afraid of you - just threaten to conquer everything and every one whenever you get the chance. I doubt this is the case, but still... you can't judge an entire society simply because they threaten war. It has been centuries since the Qunari have been the instigators of a violent war. Which, again... how many other Thedosian systems can claim that?

Er, most of them. The qunari wars were the last major wars at all that I recall, aside from Orlais' conquests... so, really, Orlais is just a rogue nation. And they've already demonstrated their desire for continental domination once before, so they should be treated as though they're willing to do so again.

[Cainhurst Crow]

Xilizhra wrote...

I also don't despise the ME3 endings, so... pillory me as well?

As for the thread, I don't see magocracy as worse than any of the other universally non-democratic governments in the nations of Thedas.

The fact I couldn't hire the crows to take them down speaks volumes of their OPness.

[Fast Jimmy]

We know that qunari society has certain advances. We do not know that the qunari developed them, and given that they're still using ship-level gunpowder and have no handguns three hundred years later, it seems likely that they did not. Their society doesn't seem like it encourages innovation.

By that same token, the rest of Thedas has had the technology of plate mail and forging steel, but have yet to incorporate the same principles involves into their architecture and engineering for centuries, so it should stand to argue they didn't invent plate mail. Oh wait, they did.

Standard logic does not apply all the time when discussing technological advancements over millennia in fantasy settings.

Er, most of them. The qunari wars were the last major wars at all that I recall, aside from Orlais' conquests... so, really, Orlais is just a rogue nation. And they've already demonstrated their desire for continental domination once before, so they should be treated as though they're willing to do so again.

No. Orlais CONQUERED Ferelden, occupying them for over a century, then resulting in a civil war against Orlais that lasted decades. Antiva has had constant bloody internal struggles. Orlais is now dealing with a brutal civil war. Tevinter and the Black Chantry have constantly bumped heads with The Divine. And all of that has just been the two ages since the Storm Age ended, when the Qunari last invaded. They have remained peaceful, despite having an undeniably strong and advanced military force.

Again... not saying the Qunari are perfect. But they are not the villains they are made out to be. They just have an incredibly different outlook on life, the world and purpose. To say that outlook is wrong and its people abused because they believe in it, when there is no more evidence of rebellion or rejection of their role than what we see across every other theology or government across Thedas, is morally arrogant.

Modifié par Fast Jimmy, 15 septembre 2013 - 01:46 .

[RazorrX]

Seival wrote...

RazorrX wrote...

Since love and fear can hardly exist together, if we must choose between them, it is far safer to be feared than loved.

Niccolo Machiavelli - 'The Prince'

Love and fear can hardly exist together? On the contrary, they co-exist quite well... You love someone, and at the same time you constantly fear something bad may happen to the one you love. Quite a tight co-existence, don't you think so? And if you have no fears about your beloved one, then your love exists just in your imagination.

Not the same at all.  You do not both love AND fear someone.  You love them OR you fear them, sometimes bouncing between the two.  In order to hold power over the masses, since they can not love AND fear you simultaneously it is much wiser to have them fear you, providing you can control them and stop them from uprising if they are stronger than your forces.  Fear can control masses much more deeply than love can.

Having blood pawns spying on them, and keeping thier spys close by to monitor what information they gain is one way to both maintain fear (they never know who is spying, plus they get fed constant false reports of spying)as well as control.

[Dabrikishaw]

Darth Brotarian wrote...

LindsayLohan wrote...

What is the point of this thread?

Whining about why the sith shouldn't be called evil, even though they practice supreme selfishness and profit for the individual over any sort of profit towards a group. Making them pretty evil by my definition, which apparently rustled jimmy's jimmies.

A-yup.

[Fast Jimmy]

RazorrX wrote...

Not the same at all.  You do not both love AND fear someone.  You love them OR you fear them, sometimes bouncing between the two.  

You obviously aren't considering abusive/dependent relationships. They are built around a warped sense of love and terror. 

Modifié par Fast Jimmy, 15 septembre 2013 - 01:47 .

[Xilizhra]

By that same token, the rest of Thedas has had the technology of plate mail and forging steel, but have yet to incorporate the same principles involves into their architecture and engineering for centuries, so it should stand to argue they didn't invent plate mail. Oh wait, they did.

Standard logic does not apply all the time when discussing technological advancements over millennia in fantasy settings.

The rest of Thedas has magic as a buffer and something that makes technological advancement somewhat less necessary, which the qunari have far less of.

No. Orlais CONQUERED Ferelden, occupying them for over a century, then resulting in a civil war against Orlais that lasted decades. Antiva has had constant bloody internal struggles. Orlais is now dealing with a brutal civil war. Tevinter and the Black Chantry have constantly bumped heads with The Divine. And all of that has just been the two ages since the Storm Age ended, when the Qunari last invaded. They have remained peaceful, despite having an undeniably strong and advanced military force.

The qunari haven't been peaceful, they've been fighting Tevinter. And the two sides of the Chantry haven't gone to war for hundreds of years. Antiva has internal struggles, but we know nothing about Qunadar's internal affairs.

Again... not saying the Qunari are perfect. But they are not the villains they are made out to be. They just have an incredibly different outlook on life, the world and purpose. To say that outlook is wrong and its people abused because they believe in it, when there is no more evidence of rebellion or rejection of their role than what we see across every other theology or government across Thedas. .

They are villains. They're evil to the core and will be stopped at any cost. If their society was based wholly on consent, that'd be one thing, but it's based on conscription and war.

Modifié par Xilizhra, 15 septembre 2013 - 01:49 .