379 réponses à ce sujet

[Seival]

Br3ad wrote...

Seival wrote...

iOnlySignIn wrote...

Problem is Magic in Thedas doesn't seem all that powerful.

We hear of Magisters of old sinking whole cities or carving harbors into cliffs but no Magic we've seen so far is anywhere near that magnitude. Even Corypheus wasn't all that impressive.

Flemeth is supposed to be some ultimate Mage in Thedas and yet the best we've seen from her is she turning into a high dragon. A high dragon can be slain by a group consisting of a few people, so meh.

You need a lot more power to rule over anything or anyone, just saying.

That's why the secrets of ancient Tevinter have to be discovered, and that's why Tevinter Empire has to reborn. I really hope the inquisitor will be capable of performing that task.

No to the post that you quoted. And no to you. 

Magic is extremely powerful. But they aren't going to show things like that in the game because it becomes way to complicated. Also, it takes a lot of mana to do those things. As for, Flemeth isn't a god, in the same sense anyway, she still has the same limitations of anyone else in a human body.

Now Sevial, no. Just no. There are so many things wrong here, but I'm sure that you know what they are.  

No to crime, no to religion, no to differences, no to conflicts. No one has to suffer. Everyone should be happy and loyal to each other. Everyone should be united under the same power, and no one has to die in the process. Blood Magic solves everything... The perfect Tevinter utopia. The noble goal to achieve.

[iOnlySignIn]

Swagger7 wrote...

I'm guessing that sinking cities or carving harbors required a lot of magisters working together and a lot of blood sacrifice.  We haven't seen anything like that because we haven't been to Tevinter. 

More mundane explanation: It's a case of gameplay/story seperation.  The devs didn't want to put in magic that you couldn't either do or fight.

In story we see the Tevinters loosing to the Qunari while still having a large number of Magisters and still performing blood sacrifices left and right.

And what great military advantage the Qunari has over the Tevinters that nullifies the oh-so-powerful Tevinter Magic? Slightly less primitive gunpowders, that's all.

If the Tevinters were once as Magically powerful as the legends say, they certainly are not now.

Modifié par iOnlySignIn, 16 septembre 2013 - 09:55 .

[iOnlySignIn]

Br3ad wrote...

Magic is extremely powerful.

Only in imaginations, I'm afraid.

Flemeth isn't a god, in the same sense anyway, she still has the same limitations of anyone else in a human body.

In her dragon body she has less limitations but still got defeated by a relatively inexperienced Warden and had to require Hawke to perform a ritual on top of a mountain to regain her bodily form.

Again, that is story, not just gameplay. There's no gameplay/story seggregation here. I adore Flemeth but if she's supposed to be the archmage of Thedas like many think she is, then Magic isn't very strong in Thedas now.

Modifié par iOnlySignIn, 16 septembre 2013 - 09:56 .

[azarhal]

iOnlySignIn wrote...

Swagger7 wrote...

I'm guessing that sinking cities or carving harbors required a lot of magisters working together and a lot of blood sacrifice.  We haven't seen anything like that because we haven't been to Tevinter. 

More mundane explanation: It's a case of gameplay/story seperation.  The devs didn't want to put in magic that you couldn't either do or fight.

In story we see the Tevinters loosing to the Qunari while still having a larger number of Magisters and still performing blood sacrifices left and right.

And what great military advantage the Qunari has over the Tevinters that nullifies the oh-so-powerful Tevinter Magic? Slightly less primitive gunpowders, that's all.

If the Tevinters were once as Magically powerful as the legends say, they certainly are not now.

Or maybe Tevinters didn't use to be made of hundreds of Magisters who's only goal is to steal everyone else power for themselves without giving a crap about their country as whole (see Titus in the comic).

Maybe when they did "great things" (terrible, but great), they was a lot more cooperation between Magisters...

[iOnlySignIn]

Seival wrote...

That's why the secrets of ancient Tevinter have to be discovered, and that's why Tevinter Empire has to reborn. I really hope the inquisitor will be capable of performing that task.

Ander's bomb is quite impressive, I'll give you that.

If more ancient Tevinter Magic like that can be rediscovered then things may get a bit more interesting.

With the Veil tear, that's certainly possible. Perhaps we can physically enter the Fade again, who knows? Should be exciting.

[Sir DeLoria]

Yay, let's recreate the Tevinter Empire! Let mages enslave everyone and have demons rule over us!

Hooray for blood mages!

[Steelcan]

Necanor wrote...

Yay, let's recreate the Tevinter Empire! Let mages enslave everyone and have demons rule over us!

Hooray for blood mages!

:devil::devil::devil::devil:

[iOnlySignIn]

azarhal wrote...

iOnlySignIn wrote...

Swagger7 wrote...

I'm guessing that sinking cities or carving harbors required a lot of magisters working together and a lot of blood sacrifice.  We haven't seen anything like that because we haven't been to Tevinter. 

More mundane explanation: It's a case of gameplay/story seperation.  The devs didn't want to put in magic that you couldn't either do or fight.

In story we see the Tevinters loosing to the Qunari while still having a larger number of Magisters and still performing blood sacrifices left and right.

And what great military advantage the Qunari has over the Tevinters that nullifies the oh-so-powerful Tevinter Magic? Slightly less primitive gunpowders, that's all.

If the Tevinters were once as Magically powerful as the legends say, they certainly are not now.

Or maybe Tevinters didn't use to be made of hundreds of Magisters who's only goal is to steal everyone else power for themselves without giving a crap about their country as whole (see Titus in the comic).

Maybe when they did "great things" (terrible, but great), they was a lot more cooperation between Magisters...

It seems strange for the Magisters to be less united or cooperative when facing a stronger foe than ever from without. Just saying.

I still think it's much more likely that tales of ancient Tevinter Magic have been greatly exaggerated over the generations by the Magisters themselves in order to boost their own prestige and to strike fear into the hearts of their enemies.

Modifié par iOnlySignIn, 16 septembre 2013 - 10:04 .

[Seival]

Steelcan wrote...

Necanor wrote...

Yay, let's recreate the Tevinter Empire! Let mages enslave everyone and have demons rule over us!

Hooray for blood mages!

:devil::devil::devil::devil:

Let's not show Tevinter and Blood Magic in any kind of negative perspective anymore. DA:O and DA2 did that more than enough. Now it's time to develop a new perspective on the matter. Remember Legion's introduction in ME2? I strongly believe that BioWare should do the same thing for Tevinter and Blood Magic (maybe even for Darkspawn).

Magocracy plus Blood Magic is not a standard way of controlling people, but it is effective, and have great perspective. Keeping under control without harsh punishments and without killing what can be better? Everyone are happy, and the only price for that is the absence of so called "free will" (which is, honestly, just an illusion).

[The Night Mammoth]

Seival wrote...

Steelcan wrote...

Necanor wrote...

Yay, let's recreate the Tevinter Empire! Let mages enslave everyone and have demons rule over us!

Hooray for blood mages!

:devil::devil::devil::devil:

Let's not show Tevinter and Blood Magic in any kind of negative perspective anymore. DA:O and DA2 did that more than enough. Now it's time to develop a new perspective on the matter. Remember Legion's introduction in ME2? I strongly believe that BioWare should do the same thing for Tevinter and Blood Magic

You don't want a new and interesting, Legion-esque perspective, you want BioWare to suddenly start saying that slavery through mind control is a good thing, something you already believe. There's nothing new or interesting about that.

(maybe even for Darkspawn).

Hopefully, the Dragon Age team learned from Mass Effect's mistakes and will keep their evil, uncomplicated villains just that. 

Modifié par The Night Mammoth, 17 septembre 2013 - 10:48 .

[Lost Hustler]

I definitely don't want Tevinter to rule again. But I do think that if The Maker is real, he created mages as the superior 'race'.

[Xilizhra]

You don't want a new and interesting, Legion-esque perspective, you want BioWare to suddenly start saying that slavery through mind control is a good thing, something you already believe. There's nothing new or interesting about that.

Well, maybe not new and interesting to our synthetic overlord, but for the rest of the populace, it quite possibly would be.

I agree with Seival to a lesser degree, as usual. We should have more expanded perspective on Tevinter, and it'd be interesting to do so with the darkspawn.

[Br3admax]

Seival wrote...

Br3ad wrote...

Seival wrote...

iOnlySignIn wrote...

Problem is Magic in Thedas doesn't seem all that powerful.

We hear of Magisters of old sinking whole cities or carving harbors into cliffs but no Magic we've seen so far is anywhere near that magnitude. Even Corypheus wasn't all that impressive.

Flemeth is supposed to be some ultimate Mage in Thedas and yet the best we've seen from her is she turning into a high dragon. A high dragon can be slain by a group consisting of a few people, so meh.

You need a lot more power to rule over anything or anyone, just saying.

That's why the secrets of ancient Tevinter have to be discovered, and that's why Tevinter Empire has to reborn. I really hope the inquisitor will be capable of performing that task.

No to the post that you quoted. And no to you. 

Magic is extremely powerful. But they aren't going to show things like that in the game because it becomes way to complicated. Also, it takes a lot of mana to do those things. As for, Flemeth isn't a god, in the same sense anyway, she still has the same limitations of anyone else in a human body.

Now Sevial, no. Just no. There are so many things wrong here, but I'm sure that you know what they are.  

No to crime, no to religion, no to differences, no to conflicts. No one has to suffer. Everyone should be happy and loyal to each other. Everyone should be united under the same power, and no one has to die in the process. Blood Magic solves everything... The perfect Tevinter utopia. The noble goal to achieve.

1. No to crime-as if controlling someone is the most noble of acts.
2. We should no tell peope what to believe.
3. I like being an individual.
4. Implying that people under the control of magic never suffer. I have not seen evidence of this.

Utopia is a very strong word for a life like medieval 1984.

[leaguer of one]

So ...We're going full sith here.

[StarcloudSWG]

Seival wrote...

Magic exists to rule over man and never to serve him.

Seival, again, I think you're missing the point of Tevinter. Their philosophy is, "As long as magic is harnessed, and mages are servants of the state (EXACTLY like you're proposing), then there is no problem here."

Except there IS a problem. Magic does not lead to perfect control or perfect order or perfect security. Mages are people too, and with great power comes great magnification of moral and ethical flaws.

Your world cannot exist.

Both Chantries are misinterpreting that part of the Chant. "Magic is meant to serve man, not rule over him" is an injunction against the pursuit of magic without moral reasoning.

Your simplistic and, frankly, uninformed interpretation of poorly applied sociological principles would just lead to yet another tyranny. At best, it's just Tevinter all over again. At worst, it makes Tevinter look like a shining paragon of civilization.

Modifié par StarcloudSWG, 18 septembre 2013 - 12:40 .

[Boycott Bioware]

I agree wit OP but i add "woman who control magic to rule man, and magic serve her well"

[Liamv2]

Yay a seival thread! I missed these.

[Lotion Soronarr]

Silfren wrote...

Oddly enough I'm reading a novel right now that deals with the question of a Society optimizing its citizens health and happiness through absolute control of work, play, marriage, reproduction, retirement, etc. 

The idea that oppression isn't so bad or doesn't actually exist, if it leads to happiness, is illusory.  The happiness itself is an illusion.

How would you know?
What makes happines "real"?

[Lotion Soronarr]

Xilizhra wrote...
And if it is... so what? It just means that everyone's a slave, rulers included.

Everyone already is a salve. In diferent degress to different things.

We are slaves to the laws of physics. To our governments. To our needs and wants.

If you are happy as a slave, would it even matter to you?

Freedom is an illusion.

I also don't despise the ME3 endings, so... pillory me as well?

Hell has frozen over.
Me and Xil actually have something in common!

[Lotion Soronarr]

Medhia Nox wrote...

@Seival: Your first statement cannot be empirically proven. You would LIKE to believe that, and because you're an ignorant human (don't worry, we all are) incapable of possibly understanding universal ethical rules IF they exist, you proclaim that they do not.

It is fine to say that you do not hold yourself to universal ethics, or that you do not believe that universal ethics exist, but stating as fact that they do not is the most puerile form of modern amorality.

Note: An affirmation that they DO exist is equally unverifiable.

And yet, to have any moral anchoring or framework you have to belive one or the other.

[The Night Mammoth]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Everyone already is a salve.

I am no salve. 

[Ieldra]

So, Seival has arrived in DA land and with him claims whose plausibility approaches the magnitude of the Planck constant. I guess it's useless to post a differentiated opinion here, but let's try:

Let me first ask this: yes, the rule preventing mages from ruling needs to go, but seriously, which mage would want to rule in the first place, realistically? You'd need to deal with people's stupidity and prejudice every day. As a mage, you have much more interesting things to do, and you have the power to ensure that the reason why people usually want to rule doesn't apply to you: you have the power to ensure that nobody rules over you.

Second, Tevinter is not a paradise for mages. The intense competition tends to have rather unpleasant side effects, especially if for some inexplicable reason, you don't like to use up others' lives for your magic. Having said that, I would like a portrayal of Tevinter which isn't as one-sided as the Chantry makes it out to be, and given the choice between Templar rule and Tevinter rule, I'd choose the latter as a mage.

Third, even I agreed with your notion that a perfectly controlled society is good (I don't, just in case that wasn't clear), Tevinter is hardly that. Tevinter is actually less controlled than any other nation. It's a culture where the whims of the individual are given free rein. If you're a magister, you can basically do what you want. The resulting internal instability I see as the main reason why Tevinter couldn't win against the qunari so far. And there you have the perfectly controlled society: the qunari; right there at the opposite end of the "individualism vs. collectivism" scale.

Modifié par Ieldra2, 18 septembre 2013 - 01:29 .

[Steelcan]

The Night Mammoth wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Everyone already is a salve.

I am no salve. 

[Boycott Bioware]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Everyone already is a salve.

Healing salve...? Or...

[General TSAR]

Seival wrote...
No to crime, no to religion, no to differences, no to conflicts. No one has to suffer. Everyone should be happy and loyal to each other. Everyone should be united under the same power, and no one has to die in the process. Blood Magic solves everything... The perfect Tevinter utopia. The noble goal to achieve.

Anyone call the white coats yet?