182 réponses à ce sujet

[DKJaigen]

Master Warder Z wrote...

leaguer of one wrote...

Master Warder Z wrote...



So you think the Smuggling rings the Templars created to avoid chantry involvement in the collecting of their Magical Dirt is actually controlled by the Chantry? What sort of Logic is that. Why not get it through Official channels? Deal with the Smithing caste and have it shipped up in bulk, you likely get better quality and far more of it.

No the Templars have their own connections, its why they had smuggling rings bringing it into them.

And the people buying have the Power to cease buying and look elsewhere; I hardly think they are exclusive to one smuggling ring considering you have more then three confirmed groups DA2 doing it. So trying to discount their strength of position doesn't exactly work when they can look elsewhere.

And i would agrue the need has been as constant as the Templars themselves, its not like the usage of Templar abilities requires more of it. They need it to preform but that is only upkeep. So if the Templars were unwilling to pay they likely would either force the issue or look elsehwere.

And considering most of the Lyrium smuggling at least according to the Carta in DAO was done by Castless working for the Smith caste and shipped topside, So yes the smuggling rings do depend upon how much the Dwarves how for their stock given that it all comes from the same place illegal or legitimate.

So you can push and complain about the cost rising but i just don't see it, You can state the Templars cannot afford but when the price is so dirt cheap i would beg to differ. The Mages require the expensive stuff, the Templars can make due with barest of Lyrium stock.

And in the case you provide all the Templars need do is alert the Dwarves of their issue and no doubt they will solve it.

They don't care for infringing upon house claims.

No I don't think the smuggling rings are controled by the chantry. It's controled by the need of profit. And the smugglers don't  the templars to get it. There mutiple sides here that will pay out the nose for it. As I said before it's the templars that need the smugglars not the smugglers who need the templars. You can go all over the point on the casteless but your missing one thing...They don't care who buys the lyrium as long as they sell it at top price. Also, you missing the issue here the laws on lyrium was there to control templars. The chantr themselve don't have to fallow those laws. In fact the chantry can pay more to keep the lyrium out of the rogue templar hand then the rogue templars can pay to get it. And Lyrium is not dirt cheap. It's no where near cheap.

I suppose they could if they were aware of them, With out player assistance though that never came to be so i have a feeling that the smugglers will likely have little time avoiding the offers of the Chantry. And that likely would apply to the Mages as well, unless if they were involved in the ring they likely wouldn't know it existed.

And then you need to factor in all the Templars need to do is reveal their existance find another group to supply them; The Smugglers may be driven by a for profit mindset but that really doesn't matter when you are dealing with people that can destroy you with a piece of vellum.

Apparently you didn't see the prices for it in DAO hrm? The basic crafting components using the material were not overly expensive and you seem to fail to grasp this.

One letter and those Smugglers are destroyed; The Dwarves as i said before will not tolerate castless, the carta or in truth any unathorized excavautions of the very mineral that makes them the majority of their wealth.

Honestly this is just getting dull; You can keep beating the same drum if you wish but i think it a fairly straight forward concept.

The Smugglers supply the Templars in exchange for coin and the Order not revealing their presence to the Dwarves which would result in their deaths faster then you could state grand proving.

Its a decent arrangement and it works in two games; I really cannot see why you think it magically wouldn't in this one.

Because the templars have no money. end of story. I also think you fail to understand that the dwarven merchant guild is the legitmate front of the carta. Both bring in money for orzamar and the nobles dont want either destroyed.

Modifié par DKJaigen, 16 septembre 2013 - 09:28 .

[Ausstig]

DKJaigen wrote...


Because the templars have no money. end of story.

it's called donations. It's how real orders of holy Knights surived. Donations of money and land by people who support and join them. 

Then Templars also have all the stores in the Towers since the mages left them. 

[leaguer of one]

Ausstig wrote...

DKJaigen wrote...


Because the templars have no money. end of story.

it's called donations. It's how real orders of holy Knights surived. Donations of money and land by people who support and join them. 

Then Templars also have all the stores in the Towers since the mages left them. 

1. The donation go to the chantry.
2. The templars are divided into multiple factions. It also adds a question of donations to who.
3. Also, you miss the consept that the people maybe for chantry and not give any thing to the templars.

Templars only have enough for short term battles. With out a stabl finaces they are screwed.

[leaguer of one]

Master Warder Z wrote...

leaguer of one wrote...

Master Warder Z wrote...



So you think the Smuggling rings the Templars created to avoid chantry involvement in the collecting of their Magical Dirt is actually controlled by the Chantry? What sort of Logic is that. Why not get it through Official channels? Deal with the Smithing caste and have it shipped up in bulk, you likely get better quality and far more of it.

No the Templars have their own connections, its why they had smuggling rings bringing it into them.

And the people buying have the Power to cease buying and look elsewhere; I hardly think they are exclusive to one smuggling ring considering you have more then three confirmed groups DA2 doing it. So trying to discount their strength of position doesn't exactly work when they can look elsewhere.

And i would agrue the need has been as constant as the Templars themselves, its not like the usage of Templar abilities requires more of it. They need it to preform but that is only upkeep. So if the Templars were unwilling to pay they likely would either force the issue or look elsehwere.

And considering most of the Lyrium smuggling at least according to the Carta in DAO was done by Castless working for the Smith caste and shipped topside, So yes the smuggling rings do depend upon how much the Dwarves how for their stock given that it all comes from the same place illegal or legitimate.

So you can push and complain about the cost rising but i just don't see it, You can state the Templars cannot afford but when the price is so dirt cheap i would beg to differ. The Mages require the expensive stuff, the Templars can make due with barest of Lyrium stock.

And in the case you provide all the Templars need do is alert the Dwarves of their issue and no doubt they will solve it.

They don't care for infringing upon house claims.

No I don't think the smuggling rings are controled by the chantry. It's controled by the need of profit. And the smugglers don't  the templars to get it. There mutiple sides here that will pay out the nose for it. As I said before it's the templars that need the smugglars not the smugglers who need the templars. You can go all over the point on the casteless but your missing one thing...They don't care who buys the lyrium as long as they sell it at top price. Also, you missing the issue here the laws on lyrium was there to control templars. The chantr themselve don't have to fallow those laws. In fact the chantry can pay more to keep the lyrium out of the rogue templar hand then the rogue templars can pay to get it. And Lyrium is not dirt cheap. It's no where near cheap.

I suppose they could if they were aware of them, With out player assistance though that never came to be so i have a feeling that the smugglers will likely have little time avoiding the offers of the Chantry. And that likely would apply to the Mages as well, unless if they were involved in the ring they likely wouldn't know it existed.

And then you need to factor in all the Templars need to do is reveal their existance find another group to supply them; The Smugglers may be driven by a for profit mindset but that really doesn't matter when you are dealing with people that can destroy you with a piece of vellum.

Apparently you didn't see the prices for it in DAO hrm? The basic crafting components using the material were not overly expensive and you seem to fail to grasp this.

One letter and those Smugglers are destroyed; The Dwarves as i said before will not tolerate castless, the carta or in truth any unathorized excavautions of the very mineral that makes them the majority of their wealth.

Honestly this is just getting dull; You can keep beating the same drum if you wish but i think it a fairly straight forward concept.

The Smugglers supply the Templars in exchange for coin and the Order not revealing their presence to the Dwarves which would result in their deaths faster then you could state grand proving.

Its a decent arrangement and it works in two games; I really cannot see why you think it magically wouldn't in this one.

The prices in da:o don't count being that it at different time in a different conflict. It's like pointing at gas prices in the 1990's to prove gas is cheap. What it cost in dao is not relivent, the issue is what it will cost now. And 100% of the time the most need resource jump i price in wars....Lyrium is that now.

And what the dwarves tolerate does not matter. They could not even stop the carta in dao, much less da2. It a surface issue. The templars revealing the carta to other dwarves would do anything. The limit the templars even know of the smugglers is on the surface only not the deep roads.

[DKJaigen]

Ausstig wrote...

DKJaigen wrote...


Because the templars have no money. end of story.

it's called donations. It's how real orders of holy Knights surived. Donations of money and land by people who support and join them. 

Then Templars also have all the stores in the Towers since the mages left them. 

Yes. to bad however that the chantry has condemned them and the orlesian nobility will take offense that they started a war on their soil. They remind me much of the teutonic knights who also lost papal approval and lost all support from the polish nobles.their end was bloody

[Eveangaline]

Toss up. On the one hand lots of normal people are probably afraid of mages, also most of going to be followers of the chant of light, and the chantry isn't big on mages and religion is a big influence on people.

On the other hand, mages can be born to any family, so people of all types will have mage relatives, and people all realize that if they have any future kids/grandkids, they could pop out as mages.

[DKJaigen]

To be honest their is no mage templar war going on, Lamberts entire plan was that he quickly destroy the mages then use his victory to plant a new divine on the sunburst throne. something ****ed up well everything ****ed up and the mages are still their the divine is still their and the templars are likely wanted death by orlais and they are going through lyrium withdrawal.

So they are ****ed. Then somebody comes along and offers them a devils deal survival in at the cost of losing theirm humanity and betraying everything they once stood for.

[Br3admax]

DKJaigen wrote...

Ausstig wrote...

DKJaigen wrote...


Because the templars have no money. end of story.

it's called donations. It's how real orders of holy Knights surived. Donations of money and land by people who support and join them. 

Then Templars also have all the stores in the Towers since the mages left them. 

Yes. to bad however that the chantry has condemned them and the orlesian nobility will take offense that they started a war on their soil. They remind me much of the teutonic knights who also lost papal approval and lost all support from the polish nobles.their end was bloody

Or the Knights Templar? 

[Lotion Soronarr]

leaguer of one wrote...
1. The donation go to the chantry.

The part for the templars?
Not anymore.
People who support the templars will simply give the Chantry less (or none at all).

Templars might end up with more money, since the Chantry wouln't be the one managing their finances anymore.

2. The templars are divided into multiple factions. It also adds a question of donations to who.

To whatever faction you support naturally.

3. Also, you miss the consept that the people maybe for chantry and not give any thing to the templars.

The opposite also holds true.
And le'ts not forget that it's the templars who patrol and potect mundanes from mages, demons and abominations.

Pro-templar does not mean anti-Chantry.

[azarhal]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

leaguer of one wrote...
1. The donation go to the chantry.

The part for the templars?
Not anymore.
People who support the templars will simply give the Chantry less (or none at all).

Templars might end up with more money, since the Chantry wouln't be the one managing their finances anymore.

There was no "part for the templars", the Templars were not an independantly funded organisation from the Chantry. They were feed, paid, clothed, armed and housed by the Chantry. Any other money they had was from illegal activities (brides, smuggling, stealing, etc).

I also doubt people are going to donate to a group of soldiers that are actively burning down villages, killing everyone in them and hunting people in the street..

[DKJaigen]

azarhal wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

leaguer of one wrote...
1. The donation go to the chantry.

The part for the templars?
Not anymore.
People who support the templars will simply give the Chantry less (or none at all).

Templars might end up with more money, since the Chantry wouln't be the one managing their finances anymore.

There was no "part for the templars", the Templars were not an independantly funded organisation from the Chantry. They were feed, paid, clothed, armed and housed by the Chantry. Any other money they had was from illegal activities (brides, smuggling, stealing, etc).

I also doubt people are going to donate to a group of soldiers that are actively burning down villages, killing everyone in them and hunting people in the street..

Not to mention the chantry also handels the PR. as soon as the chantry says that the templars have betrayed them the templars lose 95% of all the support of the common population. Thats the way it works.

[DKJaigen]

Br3ad wrote...

DKJaigen wrote...

Ausstig wrote...

DKJaigen wrote...


Because the templars have no money. end of story.

it's called donations. It's how real orders of holy Knights surived. Donations of money and land by people who support and join them. 

Then Templars also have all the stores in the Towers since the mages left them. 

Yes. to bad however that the chantry has condemned them and the orlesian nobility will take offense that they started a war on their soil. They remind me much of the teutonic knights who also lost papal approval and lost all support from the polish nobles.their end was bloody

Or the Knights Templar? 

The knights templar got into some shady political stuff and where destroyed because of it. The teutonic knights got banhammerd because of their own bad behaviour. Both examples are valid however . as soon as a military order like the templars go rogue they will be destroyed.

[TK514]

Any parallel between the RL Knights Templar and the DA Templars is purely superficial.

The Knights Templar didn't comprise the entire standing army of the Roman Catholic Church, for one, and they were brought down by a secular body with the authority of a puppet Pope.

In order for the Chantry to similarly destroy the Templar Order, they would have to, in effect, call for an Exalted March against their own army, and hope the nations of Thedas were willing and in a position to offer troops.

As for lyrium supplies, I think if we were talking average consumption of a long period, the Templars probably match or exceed the Mages in volume consumed, just based on the number of Templars that require their weekly maintenance dose. In the short term, and especially in times of combat, I suspect the Mages consume considerably more lyrium unless they are willing to turn to blood magic. Given that a Mage can be drained of their internal mana stores after just a few spells, I would imagine that during heavy combat, most Mages would be consuming mana potions in bulk. By contrast, the Templars do not require additional lyrium beyond their weekly maintenance dose to fuel their abilities. Five minutes, five hours or five days of combat are all the same in regards to their required consumption. That gives the Templars a significant logistical advantage, because they can know exactly how much lyrium they are going to need at any given time and plan accordingly. In times of war, the Mages are far more likely to exhaust the lyrium stockpiles before the Templars really start feeling the pinch, especially if the Templars press them quickly. Of course, the more Mages that fall to using Blood Magic, the less of an issue it lyrium becomes for them, so I suspect that's what we'll see happening over time.

A large group of Blood Magic users in a confined are has its own logistics issues, but that's a different discussion.

Initially, I think the Templars will retain public support out of habit and cultural momentum. How long that lasts will depend on how the Templars and Mages interact with the populace over time.

[Beerfish]

Templars should get way more support than mages in any conflict if you are talking about the majority of the population.

[leaguer of one]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

leaguer of one wrote...
1. The donation go to the chantry.

The part for the templars?
Not anymore.
People who support the templars will simply give the Chantry less (or none at all).

Templars might end up with more money, since the Chantry wouln't be the one managing their finances anymore.

2. The templars are divided into multiple factions. It also adds a question of donations to who.

To whatever faction you support naturally.

3. Also, you miss the consept that the people maybe for chantry and not give any thing to the templars.

The opposite also holds true.
And le'ts not forget that it's the templars who patrol and potect mundanes from mages, demons and abominations.

Pro-templar does not mean anti-Chantry.

1and 2. No they won't especial whne they are divided to multiple factions. Understand this, the chantry has as much money as they have because of a consentration of donation. Everyone is giving to one group. How can you have that with mulitple groups. If you have 3 different factions of templars asking for donations that a chance  of what ever is give to the chnatry divided by 3 from that area.  And even then it not a stable garantee.
 An Army can't function like that.
3. The common person, as they may fear mages, don't care about that. In there day to day lives the last thing they think about is mages, demons, and abominations. They are not going to auto maticly give support to the templars. At the very most people are indifferent with the templars. At the very most a person will not stop them from doing there job. They won't go out of there way to fund them.

[leaguer of one]

TK514 wrote...



As for lyrium supplies, I think if we were talking average consumption of a long period, the Templars probably match or exceed the Mages in volume consumed, just based on the number of Templars that require their weekly maintenance dose. In the short term, and especially in times of combat, I suspect the Mages consume considerably more lyrium unless they are willing to turn to blood magic. Given that a Mage can be drained of their internal mana stores after just a few spells, I would imagine that during heavy combat, most Mages would be consuming mana potions in bulk. By contrast, the Templars do not require additional lyrium beyond their weekly maintenance dose to fuel their abilities. Five minutes, five hours or five days of combat are all the same in regards to their required consumption. That gives the Templars a significant logistical advantage, because they can know exactly how much lyrium they are going to need at any given time and plan accordingly. In times of war, the Mages are far more likely to exhaust the lyrium stockpiles before the Templars really start feeling the pinch, especially if the Templars press them quickly. Of course, the more Mages that fall to using Blood Magic, the less of an issue it lyrium becomes for them, so I suspect that's what we'll see happening over time.

.

You're totaly wrong in this case. Mages have many ways to restore mana out side of lyrium. Spirit magic in itself  restores mana for every enemy fell. It not blood magic along that restores mana. Templars are more dependent on lyrium then mages. Mages can do with out.

[leaguer of one]

Beerfish wrote...

Templars should get way more support than mages in any conflict if you are talking about the majority of the population.

The majority of the population does not mater in this case.

[TK514]

leaguer of one wrote...

You're totaly wrong in this case. Mages have many ways to restore mana out side of lyrium. Spirit magic in itself  restores mana for every enemy fell. It not blood magic along that restores mana. Templars are more dependent on lyrium then mages. Mages can do with out.

Spirit Mages are irrelevant to this discussion due to rarity.  Unless you are trying to suggest that every single Mage is going to successfully make a deal with a benign Fade Entity?  I hope that isn't what you are suggesting, because that is an absurd position to take.

Mages, in general, have to rely on rest or lyrium potions to restore mana, and the rest is impossible while throwing spells in the middle of combat.

Edit: never mind.  Death syphon.

edit: which shows me you're discussing the spirit school rather than spirit healers.  Not that it particularly helps your case, since the requirements for Death Syphon to work are fairly useless for a ranged Mage.

Modifié par TK514, 16 septembre 2013 - 04:17 .

[leaguer of one]

TK514 wrote...

leaguer of one wrote...

You're totaly wrong in this case. Mages have many ways to restore mana out side of lyrium. Spirit magic in itself  restores mana for every enemy fell. It not blood magic along that restores mana. Templars are more dependent on lyrium then mages. Mages can do with out.

Spirit Mages are irrelevant to this discussion due to rarity.  Unless you are trying to suggest that every single Mage is going to successfully make a deal with a benign Fade Entity?  I hope that isn't what you are suggesting, because that is an absurd position to take.

Mages, in general, have to rely on rest or lyrium potions to restore mana, and the rest is impossible while throwing spells in the middle of combat.

First of all it's not a rarity. Any mage can learn it. There shelf of books about it and how to learn it in the circles. It's not an ability you're born with , it's a class of magic anyone can learn. That make it relivent. And you don't make a deal with a fade enitity, you're thinking of spirit healers, that is a different school of magic.

And no mages don't have to depend on lyrium to restore mana.

Modifié par leaguer of one, 16 septembre 2013 - 04:31 .

[Beerfish]

leaguer of one wrote...

Beerfish wrote...

Templars should get way more support than mages in any conflict if you are talking about the majority of the population.

The majority of the population does not mater in this case.

Yes it does.

[Eterna]

Templars probably. Due to prejudice towards mages by the public.

Templars are seen as protectors, mages are seen as dangerous, at least in Orlais.

[leaguer of one]

Beerfish wrote...

leaguer of one wrote...

Beerfish wrote...

Templars should get way more support than mages in any conflict if you are talking about the majority of the population.

The majority of the population does not mater in this case.

Yes it does.

No it does not.  Why. Because they can't give ether side stable support and the common people are indifferent of the conserns of mages and templars. The ones that can't change the out come of the war is the noblity because they can give stable support to ether side. It's like the lands meet  and Ozimmarin dao, the common folk sided with the wardens but that did not give them the army the need, we had to get the support of the noblity to even get an army out of those places.

[Eterna]

leaguer of one wrote...

Beerfish wrote...

leaguer of one wrote...

Beerfish wrote...

Templars should get way more support than mages in any conflict if you are talking about the majority of the population.

The majority of the population does not mater in this case.

Yes it does.

No it does not.  Why. Because they can't give ether side stable support and the common people are indifferent of the conserns of mages and templars. The ones that can't change the out come of the war is the noblity because they can give stable support to ether side. It's like the lands meet  and Ozimmarin dao, the common folk sided with the wardens but that did not give them the army the need, we had to get the support of the noblity to even get an army out of those places.

You can't support a war without resources for your troops. Who do you think provides those resources? It isn't the nobles, the best they can do is provide money. And when you have the money where do you buy the resources from? The public. 

And I think it is a tad bit silly to think that the public has no stake in the Mage and Templar war. Most of the public is probably terrified of mages. 

Modifié par Eterna5, 16 septembre 2013 - 04:46 .

[DKJaigen]

TK514 wrote...

Any parallel between the RL Knights Templar and the DA Templars is purely superficial.

The Knights Templar didn't comprise the entire standing army of the Roman Catholic Church, for one, and they were brought down by a secular body with the authority of a puppet Pope.

In order for the Chantry to similarly destroy the Templar Order, they would have to, in effect, call for an Exalted March against their own army, and hope the nations of Thedas were willing and in a position to offer troops.

As for lyrium supplies, I think if we were talking average consumption of a long period, the Templars probably match or exceed the Mages in volume consumed, just based on the number of Templars that require their weekly maintenance dose. In the short term, and especially in times of combat, I suspect the Mages consume considerably more lyrium unless they are willing to turn to blood magic. Given that a Mage can be drained of their internal mana stores after just a few spells, I would imagine that during heavy combat, most Mages would be consuming mana potions in bulk. By contrast, the Templars do not require additional lyrium beyond their weekly maintenance dose to fuel their abilities. Five minutes, five hours or five days of combat are all the same in regards to their required consumption. That gives the Templars a significant logistical advantage, because they can know exactly how much lyrium they are going to need at any given time and plan accordingly. In times of war, the Mages are far more likely to exhaust the lyrium stockpiles before the Templars really start feeling the pinch, especially if the Templars press them quickly. Of course, the more Mages that fall to using Blood Magic, the less of an issue it lyrium becomes for them, so I suspect that's what we'll see happening over time.

A large group of Blood Magic users in a confined are has its own logistics issues, but that's a different discussion.

Initially, I think the Templars will retain public support out of habit and cultural momentum. How long that lasts will depend on how the Templars and Mages interact with the populace over time.

You assume that mages are stupid enough to fight a battle of attrition and not guerillia warfare tactics. even by today standard mages would be a guerillia's fighter wet dream.

[leaguer of one]

Eterna5 wrote...

leaguer of one wrote...

Beerfish wrote...

leaguer of one wrote...

Beerfish wrote...

Templars should get way more support than mages in any conflict if you are talking about the majority of the population.

The majority of the population does not mater in this case.

Yes it does.

No it does not.  Why. Because they can't give ether side stable support and the common people are indifferent of the conserns of mages and templars. The ones that can't change the out come of the war is the noblity because they can give stable support to ether side. It's like the lands meet  and Ozimmarin dao, the common folk sided with the wardens but that did not give them the army the need, we had to get the support of the noblity to even get an army out of those places.

You can't support a war without resources for your troops. Who do you think provides those resources? It isn't the nobles, the best they can do is provide money. And when you have the money where do you buy the resources from? The public. 

And I think it is a tad bit silly to think that the public has no stake in the Mage and Templar war. Most of the public is probably terrified of mages. 

That's the point . The common folk don't suppy these resources. And Yes, it's the nobles. They have the political power , military might, and power of rule to do so. We had dao that made this clear when you had to do a lands meet just to get an army.
The common folk will not be a changing matter in this war. They have no stake in it and there too many divided factions fight. This war is not just one side mages and one side templar. Each side is divided on themselves. Even if the people do support a side, an issue of which group on the side comes up.

The public maybe afraid of mage but that fear is not enough to get them to act. They can mpb one mage  but not an army. And the public is indifferent to templars. There is no love or hate with them. At the very worst the public would treat mages like the dalish and even then no one built an army to attack the dalish. It's going to come down to the nobility being that they have the ability to enforce rules on there lands. The common folk have to fallow or risk angrying the lords of there lands