182 réponses à ce sujet

[eye basher]

People seem to think mages are great fighters you people do realize that most mages have never been in a fight before hell most spend most of their lives with their faces stuffed in books.

[DKJaigen]

Eterna5 wrote...

leaguer of one wrote...

Beerfish wrote...

leaguer of one wrote...

Beerfish wrote...

Templars should get way more support than mages in any conflict if you are talking about the majority of the population.

The majority of the population does not mater in this case.

Yes it does.

No it does not.  Why. Because they can't give ether side stable support and the common people are indifferent of the conserns of mages and templars. The ones that can't change the out come of the war is the noblity because they can give stable support to ether side. It's like the lands meet  and Ozimmarin dao, the common folk sided with the wardens but that did not give them the army the need, we had to get the support of the noblity to even get an army out of those places.

You can't support a war without resources for your troops. Who do you think provides those resources? It isn't the nobles, the best they can do is provide money. And when you have the money where do you buy the resources from? The public. 

And I think it is a tad bit silly to think that the public has no stake in the Mage and Templar war. Most of the public is probably terrified of mages. 

This is the medieval times with a similar fuedal system. The nobility's control over their subjects is absolute. he is right when he says that the common people's doesnt matter. This seems to be especially so in orlais where the feudal system seems to be even more ingrained. 

[Reaverwind]

Clockwork_Wings wrote...

Cullen did say, in Kirkwall of all places, that the perception is shifting. The bound and jailed mage apprentice, he said, is a powerful image.

I doubt most people really care about the mages' plight. Otherwise, the system would have been challenged centuries ago. No, it's the Templars consistently overstepping their bounds, interferring in politics and their heavy-handed tactics which is costing them goodwill. I see neither group winning much support.

[TheKomandorShepard]

eye basher wrote...

People seem to think mages are great fighters you people do realize that most mages have never been in a fight before hell most spend most of their lives with their faces stuffed in books.

i said that too this is only one reason that mages don't have any chance in this war if our pc don't support them. 
Besides i think that some nobles will support templars because i doubt that they want abomnation army attack them and well we have world where templars are heroes and their religion is worshiped by almost all peoples.

Reaverwind wrote...

Clockwork_Wings wrote...

Cullen
did say, in Kirkwall of all places, that the perception is shifting.
The bound and jailed mage apprentice, he said, is a powerful
image.

I doubt most people really care about the mages'
plight. Otherwise, the system would have been challenged centuries ago.
No, it's the Templars consistently overstepping their bounds,
interferring in politics and their heavy-handed tactics which is costing
them goodwill. I see neither group winning much support.

That was in case only in kirkwall and still not so many would support mages most of rebeles want only remove meredith not help mages.As i said templar reputation is better than mages far far better and templars so templars can get support. 

Modifié par TheKomandorShepard, 16 septembre 2013 - 05:14 .

[leaguer of one]

eye basher wrote...

People seem to think mages are great fighters you people do realize that most mages have never been in a fight before hell most spend most of their lives with their faces stuffed in books.

We considered that. War is not only won with great fighters only. And there are mages who are great a fighting, they acan teach the one who are not used to fighting.
You also have to know is is not a straight war ether. It's not templar vs mage, we have 8 sides to this war. We have a chance of 6 sfaction fighting each other at once.

Modifié par leaguer of one, 16 septembre 2013 - 05:16 .

[Clockwork_Wings]

Reaverwind wrote...

Clockwork_Wings wrote...

Cullen did say, in Kirkwall of all places, that the perception is shifting. The bound and jailed mage apprentice, he said, is a powerful image.

I doubt most people really care about the mages' plight. Otherwise, the system would have been challenged centuries ago. No, it's the Templars consistently overstepping their bounds, interferring in politics and their heavy-handed tactics which is costing them goodwill. I see neither group winning much support.

I did find it weird Cullen would say that in Kirkwall which is explicitely shown to have a hangup about mages, and wondered if he was wearing perception goggles when he said it.  Of course, social convention is slow to change, and maybe he sees things in his line of work that Hawke doesn't see in hers/his.

[TheKomandorShepard]

leaguer of one wrote...

eye basher wrote...

People seem to think mages are great fighters you people do realize that most mages have never been in a fight before hell most spend most of their lives with their faces stuffed in books.

We considered that. War is not only won with great fighters. And there are mages who are great a fighting, they acan teach the one who are not used to fighting.
You also have to know is is not a straight war ether. It's not templar vs mage, we have 8 sides to this war. We have a chance of 6 sfaction fighting each other at once.

yeah throw civilians vs armed and trained soldiers who outnumber them.
And do you know that traning isn't only 2 months but many many years before mages will be trained they will be dead yeah i saw this great mages their best peoples was crushed by templars like bi**** and trained in battle mages are so small in number then i doubt that would train even 1/3 of them.

Modifié par TheKomandorShepard, 16 septembre 2013 - 05:20 .

[leaguer of one]

TheKomandorShepard wrote...

leaguer of one wrote...

eye basher wrote...

People seem to think mages are great fighters you people do realize that most mages have never been in a fight before hell most spend most of their lives with their faces stuffed in books.

We considered that. War is not only won with great fighters. And there are mages who are great a fighting, they acan teach the one who are not used to fighting.
You also have to know is is not a straight war ether. It's not templar vs mage, we have 8 sides to this war. We have a chance of 6 sfaction fighting each other at once.

yeah throw civilians vs armed and trained soldiers who outnumber them.
And do you know that traning isn't only 2 months but many many years before mages will be trained they will be dead yeah i saw this great mages their best peoples was crushed by templars like bi**** and trained in battle mages are so small in number then i doubt that would train even 1/3 of them.

Please, It's the army that wins. Numbers don't matter in combat with the unskilled. Unskilled civilian are nothing but panic animals. Why do you think armed forces can control a populance 3 times there size in wars.

And it does not take that many years to train a mage. Added a mage can take out groups of people.  Added, templars are dependent on lyrium to function.

Modifié par leaguer of one, 16 septembre 2013 - 05:26 .

[billy the squid]

DKJaigen wrote...

azarhal wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

leaguer of one wrote...
1. The donation go to the chantry.

The part for the templars?
Not anymore.
People who support the templars will simply give the Chantry less (or none at all).

Templars might end up with more money, since the Chantry wouln't be the one managing their finances anymore.

There was no "part for the templars", the Templars were not an independantly funded organisation from the Chantry. They were feed, paid, clothed, armed and housed by the Chantry. Any other money they had was from illegal activities (brides, smuggling, stealing, etc).

I also doubt people are going to donate to a group of soldiers that are actively burning down villages, killing everyone in them and hunting people in the street..

Not to mention the chantry also handels the PR. as soon as the chantry says that the templars have betrayed them the templars lose 95% of all the support of the common population. Thats the way it works.

Haha, yeah every small town or city with is going to challenge a battalion of heavily armed and armoured, combat trained fanatics? Not even the feudal nobles are going to try and pick a fight with the Templars without significant support.

The common populace, pfffft. The common populace cares for safety, a place to sleep, a roof over their head and a full belly. The Chantry excommunicating the Templars effectively leads to diddly squat, when the Chantry can't enforce their edicts. 

It was exactly the same in Medieval Europe, excommunication was a sanction that allowed any other Catholic Lord or Kingdom to invade and conquer that kingdom. But as Frederick Barbarossa of the Holy Roman Empire showed, by establishing another priest as Pope after he refused to acknowledge the previous Pope, that Excommunication means nothing if no one is willing to actually do anything about it.

If anything the Templars are the guards of each chantry, the donations by the populace now go direct to the Templars now, the Priests become puppets, and so long as the Templars don't attempt a coup d'ete a vs the Nobility in the area, they're left well enough alone. Frankly if you have a degeneration of order and law in the provinces with the civil war, the Templar presence is going to be seen as benefitial by the commoners. 

As to the Lyrium supply, what is going to stop the Templars going directly to the Dwarves? Who's going to stop them? The dwarves don't give a damn, they're still getting paid. And it's almost certain that the Templars are going to be hiring out their services to Nobles as mercanaries for pay, grants of land and rights of taxation now they're no longer associated with the Chantry. There's nothing stopping them becoming involved in politics and the presence of thousands of heavily armed, armoured and well trianed soldiers is a huge boon to any Noble who has the money and influence to make a power play. 

Military might effectively carved out the kingdoms of Medieval Europe, which the Templars have.

Modifié par billy the squid, 16 septembre 2013 - 05:39 .

[TheKomandorShepard]

leaguer of one wrote...

TheKomandorShepard wrote...

leaguer of one wrote...

eye basher wrote...

People seem to think mages are great fighters you people do realize that most mages have never been in a fight before hell most spend most of their lives with their faces stuffed in books.

We considered that. War is not only won with great fighters. And there are mages who are great a fighting, they acan teach the one who are not used to fighting.
You also have to know is is not a straight war ether. It's not templar vs mage, we have 8 sides to this war. We have a chance of 6 sfaction fighting each other at once.

yeah throw civilians vs armed and trained soldiers who outnumber them.
And do you know that traning isn't only 2 months but many many years before mages will be trained they will be dead yeah i saw this great mages their best peoples was crushed by templars like bi**** and trained in battle mages are so small in number then i doubt that would train even 1/3 of them.

Please, It's the army that wins. Numbers don't matter in combat with the unskilled. Unskilled civilian are nothing but panic animals. Why do you think armed forces can control a populance 3 times there size in wars.

And it does not take that many years to train a mage. Added a mage can take out groups of people.  Added, templars are dependent on lyrium to function.

Yes and mages are nothing more than panic animals most of them fights because they don't have choice , and yes numbers matter if you have 10000 well trained warriors vs 1000 civilians it will be instant victory . yes half of them can barely light a fire and their best peoples failed entirely when it comes fight with templars  yes it takes many years traning if that would be so easy then mages would pass harrowing very early. And some nobles can donate templars so they can buy lyrium.

[Reaverwind]

TheKomandorShepard wrote...

Yes and mages are nothing more than panic animals most of them fights because they don't have choice , and yes numbers matter if you have 10000 well trained warriors vs 1000 civilians it will be instant victory . yes half of them can barely light a fire and their best peoples failed entirely when it comes fight with templars  yes it takes many years traning if that would be so easy then mages would pass harrowing very early. And some nobles can donate templars so they can buy lyrium.

Yes, nobles could donate, but why would they? Why in Thedas would they support an armed force which owes them no allegiance?

[leaguer of one]

TheKomandorShepard wrote...

leaguer of one wrote...

TheKomandorShepard wrote...

leaguer of one wrote...

eye basher wrote...

People seem to think mages are great fighters you people do realize that most mages have never been in a fight before hell most spend most of their lives with their faces stuffed in books.

We considered that. War is not only won with great fighters. And there are mages who are great a fighting, they acan teach the one who are not used to fighting.
You also have to know is is not a straight war ether. It's not templar vs mage, we have 8 sides to this war. We have a chance of 6 sfaction fighting each other at once.

yeah throw civilians vs armed and trained soldiers who outnumber them.
And do you know that traning isn't only 2 months but many many years before mages will be trained they will be dead yeah i saw this great mages their best peoples was crushed by templars like bi**** and trained in battle mages are so small in number then i doubt that would train even 1/3 of them.

Please, It's the army that wins. Numbers don't matter in combat with the unskilled. Unskilled civilian are nothing but panic animals. Why do you think armed forces can control a populance 3 times there size in wars.

And it does not take that many years to train a mage. Added a mage can take out groups of people.  Added, templars are dependent on lyrium to function.

Yes and mages are nothing more than panic animals most of them fights because they don't have choice , and yes numbers matter if you have 10000 well trained warriors vs 1000 civilians it will be instant victory . yes half of them can barely light a fire and their best peoples failed entirely when it comes fight with templars  yes it takes many years traning if that would be so easy then mages would pass harrowing very early. And some nobles can donate templars so they can buy lyrium.

But mages can train to fight. Most mages in the fight already passed their harrowing. It not the majority don't know how to use magic, it's just that majority are not used to fighting in war but give time that will change. The templars are also no used to fighting war ether.

Also, you're not getting the veiw that nobles have with mages. There are court mages and they have the ears of the nobles more then the templars. It's easier for mages to get the support of nobles because they take part in politics. The templars don't except with kirkwall.

[TheKomandorShepard]

Reaverwind wrote...

TheKomandorShepard wrote...

Yes and mages are nothing more than panic animals most of them fights because they don't have choice , and yes numbers matter if you have 10000 well trained warriors vs 1000 civilians it will be instant victory . yes half of them can barely light a fire and their best peoples failed entirely when it comes fight with templars  yes it takes many years traning if that would be so easy then mages would pass harrowing very early. And some nobles can donate templars so they can buy lyrium.

Yes, nobles could donate, but why would they? Why in Thedas would they support an armed force which owes them no allegiance?

because running abomnations and mages taking political power by force would be bad business for them as well some nobles may be religious like sebastian. 

leaguer of one wrote...

But mages can train to fight. Most
mages in the fight already passed their harrowing. It not the majority
don't know how to use magic, it's just that majority are not used to
fighting in war but give time that will change. The templars are also no
used to fighting war ether.

Also, you're not getting the veiw
that nobles have with mages. There are court mages and they have the
ears of the nobles more then the templars. It's easier for mages to get
the support of nobles because they take part in politics. The templars
don't except with kirkwall.

hah how many circles mages are war veterans few at best they can't train many mages and even their best peoples was destroyed by templars like nothing so as we seen in magi origin most of mages aren't very well trained and and in da 2 templars crushed mages as well they were able to cast flamethrower spell when they are fight with them. As i said good luck with training in such short time they don't even have strategists.

Yes becaue one court mage is more important than army of abomnations or mages who want take power for nobles.

Modifié par TheKomandorShepard, 16 septembre 2013 - 05:51 .

[leaguer of one]

billy the squid wrote...

DKJaigen wrote...

azarhal wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

leaguer of one wrote...
1. The donation go to the chantry.

The part for the templars?
Not anymore.
People who support the templars will simply give the Chantry less (or none at all).

Templars might end up with more money, since the Chantry wouln't be the one managing their finances anymore.

There was no "part for the templars", the Templars were not an independantly funded organisation from the Chantry. They were feed, paid, clothed, armed and housed by the Chantry. Any other money they had was from illegal activities (brides, smuggling, stealing, etc).

I also doubt people are going to donate to a group of soldiers that are actively burning down villages, killing everyone in them and hunting people in the street..

Not to mention the chantry also handels the PR. as soon as the chantry says that the templars have betrayed them the templars lose 95% of all the support of the common population. Thats the way it works.

Haha, yeah every small town or city with is going to challenge a battalion of heavily armed and armoured, combat trained fanatics? Not even the feudal nobles are going to try and pick a fight with the Templars without significant support.

The common populace, pfffft. The common populace cares for safety, a place to sleep, a roof over their head and a full belly. The Chantry excommunicating the Templars effectively leads to diddly squat, when the Chantry can't enforce their edicts. 

It was exactly the same in Medieval Europe, excommunication was a sanction that allowed any other Catholic Lord or Kingdom to invade and conquer that kingdom. But as Frederick Barbarossa of the Holy Roman Empire showed, by establishing another priest as Pope after he refused to acknowledge the previous Pope, that Excommunication means nothing if no one is willing to actually do anything about it.

If anything the Templars are the guards of each chantry, the donations by the populace now go direct to the Templars now, the Priests become puppets, and so long as the Templars don't attempt a coup d'ete a vs the Nobility in the area, they're left well enough alone. Frankly if you have a degeneration of order and law in the provinces with the civil war, the Templar presence is going to be seen as benefitial by the commoners. 

As to the Lyrium supply, what is going to stop the Templars going directly to the Dwarves? Who's going to stop them? The dwarves don't give a damn, they're still getting paid. And it's almost certain that the Templars are going to be hiring out their services to Nobles as mercanaries for pay, grants of land and rights of taxation now they're no longer associated with the Chantry. There's nothing stopping them becoming involved in politics and the presence of thousands of heavily armed, armoured and well trianed soldiers is a huge boon to any Noble who has the money and influence to make a power play. 

Military might effectively carved out the kingdoms of Medieval Europe, which the Templars have.

1."If anything the Templars are the guards of each chantry, the donations by the populace now go direct to the Templars now, the Priests become puppets, and so long as the Templars don't attempt a coup d'ete a vs the Nobility in the area, they're left well enough alone. Frankly if you have a degeneration of order and law in the provinces with the civil war, the Templar presence is going to be seen as benefitial by the commoners. "

The templars are not guards of the chantry but of mages. They are not part of common day thedas. They many have a fighing force but it's the local lords who have more foces. If the templars challenge the noblity they will lose being that the nobility have more fighting men. The nobility have not allegance to the templars. Add you missing one key thing. The templears are divided with in themselves. There at least 4 factions of templars: pro-chantry, renadage templars, pro-circle/mages templars, and red templars.  We have 4 sides of templars fighting each other and the mages. It's not straight templars vs mages.

2."As to the Lyrium supply, what is going to stop the Templars going directly to the Dwarves? Who's going to stop them? The dwarves don't give a damn, they're still getting paid. And it's almost certain that the Templars are going to be hiring out their services to Nobles as mercanaries for pay, grants of land and rights of taxation now they're no longer associated with the Chantry. There's nothing stopping them becoming involved in politics and the presence of thousands of heavily armed, armoured and well trianed soldiers is a huge boon to any Noble who has the money and influence to make a power play. "

The issue here is not supply it's demand. Many sides are going to want lyrium in this war. The dwarves don't care who buys it but they do care how much some one pays for it. The main chantry has the most money and simple buy up all the lyrium added the price of lyrium is going to jump up simple because it's a need resource for this war and the dwarves want to make as much mony as they can. The issue will be how long can the rogue templars afford to buy lyrium, not if they can buy it. One can say via donation but that neve is a stable form of currency for a divided force. It work with the chantry because the donation are going to one place. With the templar you have multiple factions asking for it. They will no get anywhere near the ammount the chantry would of got.

"Military might effectively carved out the kingdoms of Medieval Europe, which the Templars have."

No they don't because that have no where near the fighting men the nobility have.

Modifié par leaguer of one, 16 septembre 2013 - 06:00 .

[leaguer of one]

TheKomandorShepard wrote...



hah how many circles mages are war veterans few at best they can't train many mages and even their best peoples was destroyed by templars like nothing so as we seen in magi origin most of mages aren't very well trained and and in da 2 templars crushed mages as well they were able to cast flamethrower spell when they are fight with them. As i said good luck with training in such short time they don't even have strategists.

Yes becaue one court mage is more important than army of abomnations or mages who want take power for nobles.

Let's see... The mages of kirkwall that survived. The entire cirle of fereldin, and most of the Senior Enchanters.

And they can teach groups.

And Mage are not out to take power. It's a case of the nobles wanting to use the mages power to there own end. Read da:stone thone to understand.

[TheKomandorShepard]

leaguer of one wrote...

TheKomandorShepard wrote...



hah how many circles mages are war veterans few at best they can't train many mages and even their best peoples was destroyed by templars like nothing so as we seen in magi origin most of mages aren't very well trained and and in da 2 templars crushed mages as well they were able to cast flamethrower spell when they are fight with them. As i said good luck with training in such short time they don't even have strategists.

Yes becaue one court mage is more important than army of abomnations or mages who want take power for nobles.

Let's see... The mages of kirkwall that survived. The entire cirle of fereldin, and most of the Senior Enchanters.

And they can teach groups.

And Mage are not out to take power. It's a case of the nobles wanting to use the mages power to there own end. Read da:stone thone to understand.

What they have one battle and many in fc died as well in kirkwall saying that you become veteran after one battle is at best exaggeration.
And best part "Senior Enchanters"

lol yes supporting walking bombs and desperate terrorists is in best business for nobles just to take one mage on their side 

[MisterJB]

leaguer of one wrote...
The templars are not guards of the chantry but of mages. They are not part of common day thedas. They many have a fighing force but it's the local lords who have more foces. If the templars challenge the noblity they will lose being that the nobility have more fighting men. The nobility have not allegance to the templars.

We have seen Templars stationed at every Chantry in both games and we have been told by multiples characters; Alistair, Orsino, Elthina; that Templars exists to guard the Chantry and the Circle.
While they may have been more numerous in the Circles, they no longer exist and Templars are now free to deploy as many men as they need wherever they are needed and since we are talking about an international organization that spans an entire continent, they will outnumber and outmatch the fighting forces of individual nobles if need be.
 

The issue here is not supply it's demand. Many sides are going to want lyrium in this war. The dwarves don't care who buys it but they do care how much some one pays for it. The main chantry has the most money and simple buy up all the lyrium added the price of lyrium is going to jump up simple because it's a need resource for this war and the dwarves want to make as much mony as they can. The issue will be how long can the rogue templars afford to buy lyrium, not if they can buy it. One can say via donation but that neve is a stable form of currency for a divided force. It work with the chantry because the donation are going to one place. With the templar you have multiple factions asking for it. They will no get anywhere near the ammount the chantry would of got.

Orlais is in the middle of a Civil War, demons are invading from the Fade, the elves are getting uppity and you think a fighting force of elite knigths can't find jobs to pay for Lyrium in the middle of all this?
Not to mention, there is no reason to assume the Chantry will be of one mind when it comes to starving Templars, especially if the leaks about their leadership being decimated are true.

No they don't because that have no where near the fighting men the nobility have.

The nobles are restricted to the number of men they can levy from the region they own. Templars are a fighting force with recruits from every city-state and country in Thedas except Tevinter. They will outnumber the forces nobles can muster easily if need be plus Templars are elite warriors and worth many times hastily recruited peasants.

[leaguer of one]

TheKomandorShepard wrote...

leaguer of one wrote...

TheKomandorShepard wrote...



hah how many circles mages are war veterans few at best they can't train many mages and even their best peoples was destroyed by templars like nothing so as we seen in magi origin most of mages aren't very well trained and and in da 2 templars crushed mages as well they were able to cast flamethrower spell when they are fight with them. As i said good luck with training in such short time they don't even have strategists.

Yes becaue one court mage is more important than army of abomnations or mages who want take power for nobles.

Let's see... The mages of kirkwall that survived. The entire cirle of fereldin, and most of the Senior Enchanters.

And they can teach groups.

And Mage are not out to take power. It's a case of the nobles wanting to use the mages power to there own end. Read da:stone thone to understand.

What they have one battle and many in fc died as well in kirkwall saying that you become veteran after one battle is at best exaggeration.
And best part "Senior Enchanters"

lol yes supporting walking bombs and desperate terrorists is in best business for nobles just to take one mage on their side 

"lol yes supporting walking bombs and desperate terrorists is in best business for nobles just to take one mage on their side."

Show what you know.  A mages can turn battles by themselves. With the orlain civil war going on, who can the heads not want someone like that helping them. Even Logain in dao understood this and tried to get the mages support by helping them defy the templars. In stone throne fereldin and orlais were using mages to turn their battles.

Nobles have a clear reason to support the mages....The mages can help them in there wars more then the templars.

[MisterJB]

Hi fellas; so, how's the revolution coming alo...



Oh. To shreds you say?

[TheKomandorShepard]

leaguer of one wrote...

TheKomandorShepard wrote...

leaguer of one wrote...

TheKomandorShepard wrote...



hah how many circles mages are war veterans few at best they can't train many mages and even their best peoples was destroyed by templars like nothing so as we seen in magi origin most of mages aren't very well trained and and in da 2 templars crushed mages as well they were able to cast flamethrower spell when they are fight with them. As i said good luck with training in such short time they don't even have strategists.

Yes becaue one court mage is more important than army of abomnations or mages who want take power for nobles.

Let's see... The mages of kirkwall that survived. The entire cirle of fereldin, and most of the Senior Enchanters.

And they can teach groups.

And Mage are not out to take power. It's a case of the nobles wanting to use the mages power to there own end. Read da:stone thone to understand.

What they have one battle and many in fc died as well in kirkwall saying that you become veteran after one battle is at best exaggeration.
And best part "Senior Enchanters"

lol yes supporting walking bombs and desperate terrorists is in best business for nobles just to take one mage on their side 

"lol yes supporting walking bombs and desperate terrorists is in best business for nobles just to take one mage on their side."

Show what you know.  A mages can turn battles by themselves. With the orlain civil war going on, who can the heads not want someone like that helping them. Even Logain in dao understood this and tried to get the mages support by helping them defy the templars. In stone throne fereldin and orlais were using mages to turn their battles.

Nobles have a clear reason to support the mages....The mages can help them in there wars more then the templars.

of course i m sure that abomnations could change fate of battle but i doubt that any of two sides fighting would be satisfied. Loghain was idiot thats why curhing him was so easy he made so many bad decision that i won't even say nothing about that and see what loghain plan caused in circle.No no one will risk to angry templars just to get few mages who aren't so powerful as we seen to this point. apocalypse is worse than loosing battle and resources that they would loose to help mages win wouldn't be worth few mages who are ticking bombs any sane man will see that.

[leaguer of one]

MisterJB wrote...

leaguer of one wrote...
The templars are not guards of the chantry but of mages. They are not part of common day thedas. They many have a fighing force but it's the local lords who have more foces. If the templars challenge the noblity they will lose being that the nobility have more fighting men. The nobility have not allegance to the templars.

We have seen Templars stationed at every Chantry in both games and we have been told by multiples characters; Alistair, Orsino, Elthina; that Templars exists to guard the Chantry and the Circle.
While they may have been more numerous in the Circles, they no longer exist and Templars are now free to deploy as many men as they need wherever they are needed and since we are talking about an international organization that spans an entire continent, they will outnumber and outmatch the fighting forces of individual nobles if need be.
 

The issue here is not supply it's demand. Many sides are going to want lyrium in this war. The dwarves don't care who buys it but they do care how much some one pays for it. The main chantry has the most money and simple buy up all the lyrium added the price of lyrium is going to jump up simple because it's a need resource for this war and the dwarves want to make as much mony as they can. The issue will be how long can the rogue templars afford to buy lyrium, not if they can buy it. One can say via donation but that neve is a stable form of currency for a divided force. It work with the chantry because the donation are going to one place. With the templar you have multiple factions asking for it. They will no get anywhere near the ammount the chantry would of got.

Orlais is in the middle of a Civil War, demons are invading from the Fade, the elves are getting uppity and you think a fighting force of elite knigths can't find jobs to pay for Lyrium in the middle of all this?
Not to mention, there is no reason to assume the Chantry will be of one mind when it comes to starving Templars, especially if the leaks about their leadership being decimated are true.

No they don't because that have no where near the fighting men the nobility have.

The nobles are restricted to the number of men they can levy from the region they own. Templars are a fighting force with recruits from every city-state and country in Thedas except Tevinter. They will outnumber the forces nobles can muster easily if need be plus Templars are elite warriors and worth many times hastily recruited peasants.

1."We have seen Templars stationed at every Chantry in both games and we have been told by multiples characters; Alistair, Orsino, Elthina; that Templars exists to guard the Chantry and the Circle.
While they may have been more numerous in the Circles, they no longer exist and Templars are now free to deploy as many men as they need wherever they are needed and since we are talking about an international organization that spans an entire continent, they will outnumber and outmatch the fighting forces of individual nobles if need be."

Sure they have been templars in chantries but not in large numbers. Remember the stay mostly in the circle. Some staying in the chantry does not mean most of the do in great number. 
And if you not got it, the templars are divided with in themselves. They are not fighting as one force. They are divided to at least 4 factions.

2."Orlais is in the middle of a Civil War, demons are invading from the Fade, the elves are getting uppity and you think a fighting force of elite knigths can't find jobs to pay for Lyrium in the middle of all this?
Not to mention, there is no reason to assume the Chantry will be of one mind when it comes to starving Templars, especially if the leaks about their leadership being decimated are true."

The same can be said for the mages. Countries have a histor of emplying mages in times of war. In the fereldin uprisin orlais sent a mount of mages to help the retainer. The help turn the tide of marches. Even in the 5th blight they were need for the war way more then the templars. Orlais is in a middle of a civil war and the leader need an advantage as much as possible. They have a choice between group which an indivisal can take out groups and heal groups or  a group that's only advantage can resist magic and turn it off but is so dependent of lyrium that in a month they are useless.... You think a leader will side with the templars who are money sinks over a group that can turn the battle in their favor.

Sorrybut it's easy to see who gets the support.
3. "The nobles are restricted to the number of men they can levy from the region they own. Templars are a fighting force with recruits from every city-state and country in Thedas except Tevinter. They will outnumber the forces nobles can muster easily if need be plus Templars are elite warriors and worth many times hastily recruited peasants."

The templars are not  fighting as one force. They are divided in to 4. Your're not getting they are fighting with each other and the mages. They out number no one as they are divided.

Modifié par leaguer of one, 16 septembre 2013 - 06:24 .

[MisterJB]

leaguer of one wrote...
Show what you know.  A mages can turn battles by themselves. With the orlain civil war going on, who can the heads not want someone like that helping them. Even Logain in dao understood this and tried to get the mages support by helping them defy the templars. In stone throne fereldin and orlais were using mages to turn their battles.

Nobles have a clear reason to support the mages....The mages can help them in there wars more then the templars.

If one side supports the mages, then the other will support the templars.
Given that the templars are better trained, can dispell mana and are more numerous, the templars will easily counteract whatever aid the mages offer the opposing force. And since most normal soldiers would likely oppose their mage allies suddenly resorting to blood magic or demon summoning, those avenues are also closed for them.
Thus, end of the day, Templars win.

[leaguer of one]

MisterJB wrote...

leaguer of one wrote...
Show what you know.  A mages can turn battles by themselves. With the orlain civil war going on, who can the heads not want someone like that helping them. Even Logain in dao understood this and tried to get the mages support by helping them defy the templars. In stone throne fereldin and orlais were using mages to turn their battles.

Nobles have a clear reason to support the mages....The mages can help them in there wars more then the templars.

If one side supports the mages, then the other will support the templars.
Given that the templars are better trained, can dispell mana and are more numerous, the templars will easily counteract whatever aid the mages offer the opposing force. And since most normal soldiers would likely oppose their mage allies suddenly resorting to blood magic or demon summoning, those avenues are also closed for them.
Thus, end of the day, Templars win.

The templars are a money sink because of the need of lyrium. Added, one army can give the mages the support to keep the templars at bay. Siding with the templars is just adding a new drain of resorces because of the need of lyrium.
The normal soldier want to win will over stay there fear of magic just like Logian was willing to side with blood mages in DAO.

[MisterJB]

leaguer of one wrote...
Sure they have been templars in chantries but not in large numbers. Remember the stay mostly in the circle. Some staying in the chantry does not mean most of the do in great number. 

There are no longer Circles to guard. If the templars see that stationing half a hundred men at every Chantry is the best way to earn money to pay for Lyrium, that's just what they'll do.
 

And if you not got it, the templars are divided with in themselves. They are not fighting as one force. They are divided to at least 4 factions.

First of all, you are assuming the Templars are divided which has not been confirmed.
Second, if the templars are divided, the mages are even more. Libertarians, Resolutionists, Aequitarians, Lucrosians, Isolationists, Loyalists.
Plus, even divided, Templars are likely to have far greater numbers than any other group in Thedas.

The same can be said for the mages. Countries have a histor of emplying mages in times of war. In the fereldin uprisin orlais sent a mount of mages to help the retainer. The help turn the tide of marches. Even in the 5th blight they were need for the war way more then the templars. Orlais is in a middle of a civil war and the leader need an advantage as much as possible. They have a choice between group which an indivisal can take out groups and heal groups or  a group that's only advantage can resist magic and turn it off but is so dependent of lyrium that in a month they are useless.... You think a leader will side with the templars who are money sinks over a group that can turn the battle in their favor.

Sorrybut it's easy to see who gets the support.

See my response. Mages can be more useful than Templars against enemies that are not Templars or demons. But if, say, Gaspard employs the mages, Celene will just employ the Templars.
Oh, and Templars are also more useful against demons since they can dispell their mana as easily as a mage's and some demons are immune to magic and can't be possessed.

And while Templars may need lyrium more than mages in normal circunstance, mages actively need to drink potions of it whenever they figh prolonged battles whereas the Templars just have to drink it once in a month. Thus, mantaining the Templars would actually be less expensive than doing the same for the mages.

Modifié par MisterJB, 16 septembre 2013 - 06:36 .

[billy the squid]

leaguer of one wrote...

billy the squid wrote...


Haha, yeah every small town or city with is going to challenge a battalion of heavily armed and armoured, combat trained fanatics? Not even the feudal nobles are going to try and pick a fight with the Templars without significant support.

The common populace, pfffft. The common populace cares for safety, a place to sleep, a roof over their head and a full belly. The Chantry excommunicating the Templars effectively leads to diddly squat, when the Chantry can't enforce their edicts. 

It was exactly the same in Medieval Europe, excommunication was a sanction that allowed any other Catholic Lord or Kingdom to invade and conquer that kingdom. But as Frederick Barbarossa of the Holy Roman Empire showed, by establishing another priest as Pope after he refused to acknowledge the previous Pope, that Excommunication means nothing if no one is willing to actually do anything about it.

If anything the Templars are the guards of each chantry, the donations by the populace now go direct to the Templars now, the Priests become puppets, and so long as the Templars don't attempt a coup d'ete a vs the Nobility in the area, they're left well enough alone. Frankly if you have a degeneration of order and law in the provinces with the civil war, the Templar presence is going to be seen as benefitial by the commoners. 

As to the Lyrium supply, what is going to stop the Templars going directly to the Dwarves? Who's going to stop them? The dwarves don't give a damn, they're still getting paid. And it's almost certain that the Templars are going to be hiring out their services to Nobles as mercanaries for pay, grants of land and rights of taxation now they're no longer associated with the Chantry. There's nothing stopping them becoming involved in politics and the presence of thousands of heavily armed, armoured and well trianed soldiers is a huge boon to any Noble who has the money and influence to make a power play. 

Military might effectively carved out the kingdoms of Medieval Europe, which the Templars have.

1."If anything the Templars are the guards of each chantry, the donations by the populace now go direct to the Templars now, the Priests become puppets, and so long as the Templars don't attempt a coup d'ete a vs the Nobility in the area, they're left well enough alone. Frankly if you have a degeneration of order and law in the provinces with the civil war, the Templar presence is going to be seen as benefitial by the commoners. "

The templars are not guards of the chantry but of mages. They are not part of common day thedas. They many have a fighing force but it's the local lords who have more foces. If the templars challenge the noblity they will lose being that the nobility have more fighting men. The nobility have not allegance to the templars. Add you missing one key thing. The templears are divided with in themselves. There at least 4 factions of templars: pro-chantry, renadage templars, pro-circle/mages templars, and red templars.  We have 4 sides of templars fighting each other and the mages. It's not straight templars vs mages.

2."As to the Lyrium supply, what is going to stop the Templars going directly to the Dwarves? Who's going to stop them? The dwarves don't give a damn, they're still getting paid. And it's almost certain that the Templars are going to be hiring out their services to Nobles as mercanaries for pay, grants of land and rights of taxation now they're no longer associated with the Chantry. There's nothing stopping them becoming involved in politics and the presence of thousands of heavily armed, armoured and well trianed soldiers is a huge boon to any Noble who has the money and influence to make a power play. "

The issue here is not supply it's demand. Many sides are going to want lyrium in this war. The dwarves don't care who buys it but they do care how much some one pays for it. The main chantry has the most money and simple buy up all the lyrium added the price of lyrium is going to jump up simple because it's a need resource for this war and the dwarves want to make as much mony as they can. The issue will be how long can the rogue templars afford to buy lyrium, not if they can buy it. One can say via donation but that neve is a stable form of currency for a divided force. It work with the chantry because the donation are going to one place. With the templar you have multiple factions asking for it. They will no get anywhere near the ammount the chantry would of got.

"Military might effectively carved out the kingdoms of Medieval Europe, which the Templars have."

No they don't because that have no where near the fighting men the nobility have.

You saw them repeatedly in DA2 and DAO, the Templars were the militant arm of the Chantry, deployed in the Exalted Marches, protection of the Chantry and guarding the Circles. Where ever there is a Chantry presence on any noticable scale, Templars are present to enforce the Chantry's will. Now they broke from the Chantry, they have effective control over any area they are present in, with enough numbers.

The nobility do not have the numbers to go toe to toe with the Templars, feudal knights were incredibly expensive to maintain and equip, which is why grants of land were given to minor nobility by their feudal overlords so they could maintain themselves. The Templars were recruited, maintained, equiped and trained by the Chantry. They are in effect Knights who function as mercinaries. They are not bound by the economic limitations of the Feudal system, which limited the numbers of medieval knights. Or do you think a peasant rabble levied by the Feudal Lord is going to match a company of Templars?

Is there any indication that the Templars are more divided than Those who have aligned with the Chantry and those which have split? Because this is simple supposition, even if the Red Templars are a splinter faction, they are fanatics of the existing faction of Templars which has split from the Chantry. Do you have any indication how many Templars have sceded from the Chanrty? Even if it's only a third, considering their presence in every nation in Thedas, that still amounts to thousands of Templars, all heavily armoured and well trained soldiers, mobilizing. Something no individual nation is going to combat without a massive amount of bloodshed. And considering the Orlesians are falling into Civil War, there's nothing to stop the Templars from simply walking into the Free Cities and taking one as a base, just as they did in Kirkwall, where they were in defacto control.

The Chantry has money because it enforces it's edicts and tithes through Templar authority. What happens when the Templars simply stop enforcing it on behalf of the Chantry and take it for themselves? There's this magical idea that the Chantry can do anything by simple authority. It can't. Just like the Roman Catholic Church in Medieval Europe, with no military arm, the Chantry is utterly powerless. It's cripplingly obvious and it was shown in the episodes of Frederik Babarossa, Charles V of France, Phillip II of Spain, Henry VIII, all of them either disregarded or outright invaded the Papal decree and states. And the Church couldn't do a damn thing. The Chantry is in exactly the same situation, it's power and authority was bassed on the Templar's military might. That's gone.

And as I already explained, why would the Templars ever rely on donations, when they are easily capable of establishing themselves as brutally effective mercinaries, earining money, tax rights, taking tithes, grants of land or simply taking control of areas by force. The accords were the only thing keeping the Templars on a leash and stopping them entering politics through force of arms.

There's no reason they won't do it now, and become a political force rivaling anything the other nations of Thedas can muster. This is precisely what the Teutonic Order did, and they remained very powerful for 200 years

Modifié par billy the squid, 16 septembre 2013 - 06:39 .