10 réponses à ce sujet

[Bionuts]

Would love to make a dark skinned character.

Anyone else?

[Allan Schumacher]

So that the writers create a setting which IS nearly all white, with only token PoCs, DOES illustrate the writers' perception of society. Consciously or not, they ARE projecting a very specific message about their ideas of the socio-cultural landscape.

First off, nobody is DEMANDING anything.

I'll admit, I am having a difficult time reconciling these two statements. I'm not sure what you mean, because my understanding in how I read this the first statement comes across as unacceptable and something you seek for us to change, which I interpret as a "demand."

It may be down to a difference in the application of the term demand, in that I see it as a request that one considers to be of significant importance.
http://www.thefreedi...nary.com/demand


I get the feeling that you would be quite disappointed if things didn't change, which is where my dissonance manifests from.

[Allan Schumacher]

I interpret "demand" as placing someone in a position where not doing what you say ensures significantly negative consequences.

Well, as negative of a consequence that one making said demand can be. In the case of the consumer-producer relationship, it could be not buying the product and speaking out against the product and stuff like that.

Though even if this was a demand, would it be wrong?

I think that if it's a strong enough issue for someone, demand is an appropriate word.

[Allan Schumacher]

I see the people in this thread as (mostly) trying to be constructive. They (or at least I) am not assuming that Bioware set out with the deliberate intent of being racist. I don't think Dragon Age or the people behind it are racist. I do think aspects of Dragon Age have unfortunate implications that are not intended by the creators. Which is normal. Everybody does it. I do it.

I agree on all counts. I actually find it interesting because when discussing topics such as this, different posts from different people come across in very different ways (to me, anyways). I appreciate a collaborative effort, though if I read into something that appears more adversarial, my initial response tends to be defensive (which likely means less thought out and rational). Which may undermine the discussion because I am human and prone to being dumb like that.

To take a non-racial, Bioware-specific example; David Gaider made a controversial blog post a while back about how the female members of the writing team identified a problem with a scene that the male writers had not noticed, but recognised instantly once the female writers brought it to their attention. The female writers (as far as Gaider's recount details) did not jump down the throat of the man who had written the scene, and "demand" that he change it. Their response was along the lines of "this scene gives off a vibe of xyz that you might not have intended".

Perhaps. I don't know the full context, though if something is presented in such a way, could the "demand" be implicit?

I mean, there's a difference in delivery between "this must be changed or people would be angry and hate us" or "You really should change this because it will likely be interpreted in a way that you do not intend." Is it really less of a "demand" though? But I can see your point and perhaps my application of the word "demand" is too broad, in this sense.

[Allan Schumacher]

You know, I really think I ought to be honest here.

I don't think those characters would look as nice with wiry hair. And I would thus probably frown on BioWare making them with it.

It's fine to think that way. I have my preferences on what I consider more attractive as well. Just so long as you're respectful to those that may value different things as well.

I'll grant that there's a fine line between offering adivce and making demands. Obviously if the person didn't really have a problem with it, they wouldn't bring it up to begin with.

I think an important thing here is how one presents a request (probably a more generally correct word than demand) is still something to factor in.

The difference in my two ways of saying it is in many ways simply a difference in communicating it in a way that the challenged person is in a greater psychological state to be receptive and open to the criticism.

[Allan Schumacher]

Doesn't it? If someone said 'I think black people are ugly because they're black,' wouldn't that be taken as racist?

I mean, the logical conclusion of that would be the exclusion of such people, wouldn't it?

And aren't I pretty much saying that? Wiry hair is just as associated with black people as dark skin.

It would be taken as racist by some, though I think the idea that it may not actually be racist would be a valid interpretation.

It comes down to effective and courteous communication, however. It's blunt, and blunt enough that it can be interpreted as hostile. Rephrasing and saying "I do not find black people attractive" would convey the same message but perhaps come across in a way that is less adversarial.

Discussing personal preferences of physical attraction may always flirt that line and be prone to being interpreted as hateful speech, but I would not consider your statement to be equivalent of say "I do not like black people because they are black."


Although this is perhaps veering too much into a topic that is not related to DAI (of which I myself have contributed to), so reigning it in back to DAI would probably be preferable.

Modifié par Allan Schumacher, 16 septembre 2013 - 08:02 .

[Allan Schumacher]

Maria does make a good point that what is considered attractive IS affected by social influences, so any latent racism (intentional or otherwise) that exists there will be propagated.

But yes, diversity in DAI. Interesting? Hmmm... quite.

[David Gaider]

Enough of the back-and-forth bickering, please.

We have zero problem with anyone asking there be more POC characters in Dragon Age. None.

Trying to establish whether there's a difference between asking and demanding is a bit pointless-- nothing's being threatened by anyone doing the asking other than their disappointment, and that's really no different than any other request that gets made on these forums.

The previous engine issue with regards to much darker skin tones is now solved, as one can see with Vivienne. My understanding is that this extends to player-made characters as well, though we can't make any elaborations on that front until the chargen system is both finalized and shown.

While we're not about to try and fit every real-world ethnicity onto one continent in our setting, we do have the Rivaini (a group that extends both westward of Rivain and northward into the Boeric islands) and it would certainly be nice to see them present in more than singular numbers-- for the sake of visual variety even if one isn't concerned about it from an inclusivity standpoint.

Inclusivity is something BioWare is concerned about, however. We're well aware that Dragon Age can't be all things to all people, but that doesn't mean we can't do better-- and there's no harm in letting people request how they'd like to see us do better without assuming that BioWare's immediate response will be to lose all sense of perspective.

We can take it, and these players have just as much right to ask for what they want as anyone else would, say, to ask for a particular romance option or a gameplay feature. Please be respectful.

Thanks.

Modifié par David Gaider, 16 septembre 2013 - 04:40 .

[Allan Schumacher]

Fast Jimmy wrote...

Avejajed wrote...

I don't understand what the BFD is. Quotas? Race only if it's making sense? What??

Put some more dark skinned people in. Then toss in some yellow skinned, and some red skinned, and purple and green skinned. Even toss in some damn orange skinned, it's a fantasy game after all.

Please don't circumvent the profanity filter. It attracts the robo mods.

There are no "robomods" on this forum.  Playing moderator yourself, however, will attract moderators.  Including devs that would prefer not to be.

[Allan Schumacher]

Just to comment, prior to reading this thread and reading that definition, I probably would have considered myself a "colourblind" person too, until I learned that there's a lot more baggage that comes with that term.

I try to treat people the same regardless of their skin colour. That doesn't, however, mean that I also feel that racism is no longer an issue, or that people of varying minorities don't face additional struggles and that various forms of institutional/systemic racism still occur. I understand that the goals of things like affirmative action are done to both combat systemic discrimination as well as provide examples for minorities that this type of job opportunity is available to them.

Yes, I do understand that on some level that means that I will be treating people with my cultural biases for what is an appropriate way to treat someone. I understand that sometimes this may cause issues, and am open to discussion as I don't mean to offend. I also understand that other people from different cultures will from time to time treat me in ways that I am not accustomed to, and that in general it's probably not actually a slight on my person. In general, I have come to appreciate learning different things about people, and if (to use a real life example) I am getting my hair cut and the person speaks to a coworker in a different language, sometimes I'll just ask "what language is that" and get to know the person.

And yes, I try to do this regardless of the person's skin colour, ultimately with the intent of appreciating that some people will be different and that I will learn new things from them.

I may not stay this way forever, but at this time the choice is fairly binary between deciding to treat people differently or not. The problem I have is that if I were to treat them differently, I wouldn't actually know how to treat them without knowing them. So yeah, it's a challenge and sometimes I may offend people. Though I would be surprised if I didn't also offend people if I attempted to treat them differently on the basis of their skin colour, because I likely wouldn't know any better.


So after reading those articles, I learned that I probably was not part of the "colorblind" group because I certainly don't feel that racial issues are simply no longer a problem and don't also realize (especially in Alberta) that simply being a white male removes some barriers for me.

[Allan Schumacher]

While I am certainly not exempt from taking this more political than I probably should, I do feel we've crossed a threshold.

http://youtu.be/2NS7Gkv4NNA?t=39s

Closing.