454 réponses à ce sujet

[Ryzaki]

EntropicAngel wrote...
No one's ignoring why it happened. It just isn't as relevant as you think it is.

You seem to be under the impression that marketing should be taken for truth. I am not. Thus, I see the reason for those actions being "people didn't like what they got." I see that reason as being absolutely possible, and indeed likely, with this issue.

And no one is saying we should not discuss it. I never said that at all. I merely pointed out that care should be taken not to demand things.

When you're using marketing to say what's expected to be in your product yeah I believe it should have some grains of truth. It doesn't have to be exactly true but it shouldn't be obvious blatant lies (like the Aliens Colonial Marines lulzfest shows). You are charging people for what you're selling. (and in some cases charging them before the product has even been released). So yeah it should be expected that you're representing your product truthfully.

I see the reason as people not getting what they were mislead into paying for.

And yes to me it's VERY relevant. You think the HTL would have gotten as big as it did as quickly if people didn't feel they had a good reason to demand a better product? 

And I feel there's no reason for a demand in this scenario so I don't see why you're even bringing it up.

Modifié par Ryzaki, 16 septembre 2013 - 04:01 .

[Ryzaki]

Mentioned demanding for PoC to be in the next DA game? Did they say they were gonna do it or someone else would?

Modifié par Ryzaki, 16 septembre 2013 - 04:03 .

[David Gaider]

Enough of the back-and-forth bickering, please.

We have zero problem with anyone asking there be more POC characters in Dragon Age. None.

Trying to establish whether there's a difference between asking and demanding is a bit pointless-- nothing's being threatened by anyone doing the asking other than their disappointment, and that's really no different than any other request that gets made on these forums.

The previous engine issue with regards to much darker skin tones is now solved, as one can see with Vivienne. My understanding is that this extends to player-made characters as well, though we can't make any elaborations on that front until the chargen system is both finalized and shown.

While we're not about to try and fit every real-world ethnicity onto one continent in our setting, we do have the Rivaini (a group that extends both westward of Rivain and northward into the Boeric islands) and it would certainly be nice to see them present in more than singular numbers-- for the sake of visual variety even if one isn't concerned about it from an inclusivity standpoint.

Inclusivity is something BioWare is concerned about, however. We're well aware that Dragon Age can't be all things to all people, but that doesn't mean we can't do better-- and there's no harm in letting people request how they'd like to see us do better without assuming that BioWare's immediate response will be to lose all sense of perspective.

We can take it, and these players have just as much right to ask for what they want as anyone else would, say, to ask for a particular romance option or a gameplay feature. Please be respectful.

Thanks.

Modifié par David Gaider, 16 septembre 2013 - 04:40 .

[Ryzaki]

EntropicAngel wrote...

There you go.

That's not a demand that's a request. Not to mention that's about this thread no?

Anyway, I hope we get some long female braids. I'm picky I know but I just want long braids.

Modifié par Ryzaki, 16 septembre 2013 - 04:19 .

[Estelindis]

Thanks for the response, Mr. Gaider.  I think that your attitude on the subject is fair and well-meaning.

Maria Caliban wrote...

It got deleted? That's a pity.

I have a copy of the first page of that thread saved on my HDD which I can share if anyone wants to track down those links again.  

[daveliam]

David Gaider wrote...

Enough of the back-and-forth bickering, please.

We have zero problem with anyone asking there be more POC characters in Dragon Age. None.

Trying to establish whether there's a difference between asking and demanding is a bit pointless-- nothing's being threatened by anyone doing the asking other than their disappointment, and that's really no different than any other request that gets made on these forums.

The previous engine issue with regards to much darker skin tones is now solved, as one can see with Vivienne. My understanding is that this extends to player-made characters as well, though we can't make any elaborations on that front until the chargen system is both finalized and shown.

While we're not about to try and fit every real-world ethnicity onto one continent in our setting, we do have the Rivaini (a group that extends both westward of Rivain and northward into the Boeric islands) and it would certainly be nice to see them present in more than singular numbers-- for the sake of visual variety even if one isn't concerned about it from an inclusivity standpoint.

Inclusivity is something BioWare is concerned about, however. We're well aware that Dragon Age can't be all things to all people, but that doesn't mean we can't do better-- and there's no harm in letting people request how they'd like to see us do better without assuming that BioWare's immediate response will be to lose all sense of perspective.

We can take it, and these players have just as much right to ask for what they want as anyone else would, say, to ask for a particular romance option or a gameplay feature. Please be respectful.

Thanks.

Thank you David.  I always appreciate hearing your views on the issues that arise on the forums.  It gives a bit of an insider voice that it is interesting to me.

[Estelindis]

EntropicAngel wrote...

Naw all the good stuff was several pages in.

But I'm not sure we should be talking about this.

It's certainly off-topic, so I'll just comment that, since the first page was a gigantic compilation of quotes found, the stuff several pages in would have to be freaking incredible... and leave it there.

[kinderschlager]

Bionuts wrote...

Would love to make a dark skinned character.

Anyone else?

so long as they don't wear robes and funky hats 

[sunnydxmen]

Warden Inquisitor wrote...

there are spanish who look white they cone in different shades.

[Bionuts]

sunnydxmen wrote...

Warden Inquisitor wrote...

there are spanish who look white they cone in different shades.

Yes. I'm Hispanic, but my whole family is white as rice.

Except for my father and I. It's funny.

[Realmzmaster]

There is nothing wrong with a poster or posters making a request to see more culturally diverse (in terms of both culture and skin color) groups in video games. Gamers like to see characters in game that represent their cultural viewpoint. Bioware has been very good at representing diverse groups all the way back to BG1 where you pick from portraits or was allowed to include a portrait of your own for the PC.

I was disappointed with the limitations of the engines Bioware has used in the past (starting with NWN) because the dark skin tones really looked inadequate, but Bioware acknowledged those limitations.
Unfortunately some of the promotional material (screenshots and trailer) for DA2 in regards to Isabela were just wrong.

The Frostbite 3 engine has corrected the problems of the previous engine. I look forward to exploring more of Thedas where Bioware may be able to showcase more culturally diverse groups.

Off topic: The movie Imitation of LIfe (1959) is a good movie to watch. There is also the 1934 version of the movie and the book by the same title. Interesting reading and watching. In the 1959 versio Mahalia Jackson sings a great version of Trouble of the World.

Modifié par Realmzmaster, 16 septembre 2013 - 05:41 .

[The Six Path of Pain]

Bionuts wrote...

sunnydxmen wrote...

Warden Inquisitor wrote...

there are spanish who look white they cone in different shades.

Yes. I'm Hispanic, but my whole family is white as rice.

Except for my father and I. It's funny.

Haha,nice...I'm of mexican descent and except for my dad and sister most people in my immediate family are white as hell. Though I know this because most of my moms relatives are from Spain. So I pretty much am white.

[aries1001]

Isn't the question really this:

When people are asking for more darkskinned people in DA: Inquisition or in the DA universe (in the games that is) what are they really asking for? Do they want more darkskinned npcs? or do they want to be able to create a more darkskinned character for themselves? And by that I mean even more darkskinned than Zevran or Vivienne or perhaps Isabella...

My take on this: Darkskinned characters has to fit the lore e.g. people from Antiva are probably more darkskinned than people from say Denerim (or Ferelden in general). And the people from Rivain are probably even more darkskinned than the people from Antiva. In the DA lore, there doesn't seem to be any indication tthat there are people in Thedas as darkskinned as the africans who live south of Sahara, irl. (btw, just for information - please don't start to derail this thread).

This is what I mean by: there has to be some basis for darkskinned people to appear in the DA lore....

[Fredward]

aries1001 wrote...

Isn't the question really this:

When people are asking for more darkskinned people in DA: Inquisition or in the DA universe (in the games that is) what are they really asking for? Do they want more darkskinned npcs? or do they want to be able to create a more darkskinned character for themselves? And by that I mean even more darkskinned than Zevran or Vivienne or perhaps Isabella...

My take on this: Darkskinned characters has to fit the lore e.g. people from Antiva are probably more darkskinned than people from say Denerim (or Ferelden in general). And the people from Rivain are probably even more darkskinned than the people from Antiva. In the DA lore, there doesn't seem to be any indication tthat there are people in Thedas as darkskinned as the africans who live south of Sahara, irl. (btw, just for information - please don't start to derail this thread).

This is what I mean by: there has to be some basis for darkskinned people to appear in the DA lore....

I'm curious, do you think POC need MORE of an explanation to be in the game than white people? And actually DG has said (more than once) that people from Rivain range all the way to ebony-skinned so yeah, the lore actually does support it.

[DarthSideus2]

Silfren wrote...

Boiny Bunny wrote...

Silfren wrote...

I'm going to expand my previous post...

Boiny Bunny wrote...

Bioware games are not actually literal platforms for racial/gender/anything else equality (nor are any video games). The under-representation of African/Asian people in popular media, be it television, movies, video games, etc. is a political and social issue. It's the prerogative of the writers to decide whether or not they want to engage in some form of social commentary through the world that they craft - but they are under no obligation to attempt to include every racial type that there is, simply on the basis that they exist, if it will interfere with the integrity of their world.

Not gonna lie, my previous response is, as far as I'm concerned, exactly the kind of reply this deserves, but I will go ahead and elaborate.

All forms of social media are platforms for equality, because they both inform and are informed by the larger culture. Any time a story, whatever medium is used to tell it, whitewashes a historical setting that in actuality was multicultural, a social statement is being made. Any time a story takes a fictional setting and makes it all white, or nearly all-white, with only a very small number of PoCs, a social statement is being made. That white people--and it IS white people--only ever make noise about a given medium using its story as social commentary when that medium portrays substantial numbers of PoCs, or LGBT persons, etc., says more about those people's limited perspective than anything else.

I think you're misinterpreting what I said.  In hindsight, it could have been worded better - but it also looks like you've missed some of my subsequent posts which elaborate a lot more.  I've said this somewhere above, and I'll happily repeat it - I agree with you completely that Bioware themselves were making a social statement when they decided to make the population of Thedas predominately Caucasian.

With respect to my comment about 'not actually literal platforms' - I was not referring in any way to Bioware making social commentary themselves.  Rather, I was referring to consumers of Bioware products using the products as platforms for equality themselves, by demanding changes to the games in order that they more closely align with their own desired social views.

Let me give you another example.  Suppose that there is a popular game series which has no LGBT characters in it.  At some point, a group of consumers of said game series decide that the lack of LGBT characters is reinforcing inequality for LGBT people, and thus begin requesting that LGBT characters be inserted into the game.  That is consumers of the product, attempting to use the product as a platform for equality.  It says nothing about why the game creators did not include LGBT characters in the first place.

Please, go back and re-read my post with that in mind.

Yes, the under-representation of people who aren't white is a political and social issue. But you are grossly mistaken if you are trying to claim that this means that entertainment media has no effect on the political or social climate. As I wrote elsewhere, media reinforces social perceptions as much as it is informed by them. Ever seen a t.v. show that is either set in New Orleans, or has one show tthat takes place in New Orleans, and yet there's exactly one, or even zero, Black characters, minor or major? I've seen a few. Can you guess why that is kind of a problem? A serious problem?

I haven't made such a claim, or anything even alluding to such, in any of my posts.  Once again, I agree with you completely - 'whitewashing' a real/historical setting is a large problem in popular media (I don't live in the US, so don't have any comments to make about TV shows covering New Orleans.  I live in Australia, and unfortunately, can report that most of our fictional television shows similarly whitewash out beyond token, and usually offensively stereotypical, appearances).

Yes, it's the prerogative of the writers whether they want to create a world that features a healthy mix of different ethnicities, such that white is not the default. But why in the world do you think that they are NOT making a social commentary by making white the default and NOT including different ethnicities. Seriously, think that through. How is one an example of social commentary, but not the other.

I don't - at all.  Refer to my first comment in this post, above.  Again, probably my poor wording more than anything.

Bioware is a Canadian company. Canada is no more 100% white than the United States is. Medieval Europe, also, was not 100% white (which I mention only because the most common defense for 99.98% white Thedas is because it's totally meant to be medieval-era Europe). So that the writers create a setting which IS nearly all white, with only token PoCs, DOES illustrate the writers' perception of society. Consciously or not, they ARE projecting a very specific message about their ideas of the socio-cultural landscape.

Yep, agreed once more.  Of course, it gets more complicated when the business people get involved.  Who knows if Bioware had originally planned a more multi-cultural setting for DA, but was overridden by marketing/etc.

First off, nobody is DEMANDING anything.  People have communicated to Bioware that they REALLY want to see more multi-ethnic groups portrayed, just as they've asked for more portrayal of LGBT options.  But none of us are demanding it.  If anything, the people who raise a stink AGAINST these things have a far, FAR more egregiously demanding attitude in their tirades.

Secondly, I'm not sure what your point is about consumers using Bioware games as a platform for equality.  PoCs want to see themselves reflected in games, the way that white people already are.  LGBT persons want to see themselves reflected in games, the way heteronormative people already are.  This is not using the games as a platform for equality, this is WANTING TO BE REPRESENTED THE SAME WAY THAT WHITE STRAIGHT PEOPLE ALREADY ARE.  Meaning, it's not intended as a push for civil rights, per se, it's wanting to be able to play a game and NOT be forced to play a white straight person as the default.  Equality would be the outcome...or a push toward that outcome, but at it's most basic, it's just wanting to have one opportunity to NOT have to choke on the product of white privilege.

Well played, especially next to last paragraph.

[Cigne]

On topic, this is about a fictional world, set in a  different time period, designed to entertain, to be enjoyed by, us. If the tools allow Bioware to include more variety in the appearance of characters/npcs, good. That should contribute to more people enjoyinging/buying DAI, and increase the chance for DAnext. To me it's as simple as that.

But:

Filament wrote...

Except the practical application of colorblindness somehow always seems to be exactly what the article claimed: shut down any discussion about race, legitimate or otherwise. For example, the request for minority representation being met with "I have no problem playing Jade Empire as a white person, y u no colorblind like me?" when it's not the same thing. It may still seem petty in your personal opinion, but it's far from the only situation where colorblindedness is invoked, and I cannot agree with any claim that they are all equally petty. That is just an ugly line of thinking.

Simply treating everyone the same is not the problematic definition of colorblindedness, and is even a noble goal, but I would humbly suggest not using the word "colorblindedness" to describe that, because it's not really accurate. You're not implicitly blind to people's race just by treating them equally, nor are you blind to the very real difference of experience they may have from yourself that leads them to see things differently. Yet the former is what colorblinded people purport to believe, and the latter is what actual "colorblindedness" in practice tends to cause. Simply treating people as you'd like to be treated implies none of that. And ascribing such a label to yourself in the course of any serious discussion about race is only going to arouse suspicion as to your motivations being disingenuous, even if you earnestly believe it's the appropriate term.

I've yet to find an approach better than the two bolded ones. One can't know what someone of another color has experienced, especially at the first meeting. I can rightfully assume that everyone has experienced a different life than I have, in some degree, but to assume that they have faced greater/lesser hardships, based on nothing but color? Country,family, culture, age, finance, are other factors that influence how someone sees the world, and themselves.

I think your primary point is that one should be aware that another's color can/will affect your behavior even if you're not aware of it, and one should keep that in mind; and I completely agree. One should alway be ready to question their beliefs. But again, I've yet to find an approach better than the two bolded ones.

[frankf43]

Zu Long wrote...

Uh...Vivienne?

This.

[frankf43]

Bionuts wrote...

Would love to make a dark skinned character.

Anyone else?

I must admit I like playing the Redguard in the Elder Scrolls games.

[Angrywolves]

Thank you David.
He's right.
Of course I got criticized for my asian thread by some posters.
I was unaware that the developers had discussed it previously . shrugs.
I wasn't even asking for asians.
Personally I don't dwell on the race of my characters.
I can make my protagonist as dark or as light as I want him/her to be.
I expect the character creator will be much improved over the ones of the past.
The thing I find amusing is poor Isabela.
If she's in DAI she'll probably look completely different than she did in DA2, just like she looked different in DAO .
Sad that Gaider had to come in and settle things down.
The numbered mods having a day off ?
rotfl.

[DarthSideus2]

David Gaider wrote...

Enough of the back-and-forth bickering, please.

We have zero problem with anyone asking there be more POC characters in Dragon Age. None.

Trying to establish whether there's a difference between asking and demanding is a bit pointless-- nothing's being threatened by anyone doing the asking other than their disappointment, and that's really no different than any other request that gets made on these forums.

The previous engine issue with regards to much darker skin tones is now solved, as one can see with Vivienne. My understanding is that this extends to player-made characters as well, though we can't make any elaborations on that front until the chargen system is both finalized and shown.

While we're not about to try and fit every real-world ethnicity onto one continent in our setting, we do have the Rivaini (a group that extends both westward of Rivain and northward into the Boeric islands) and it would certainly be nice to see them present in more than singular numbers-- for the sake of visual variety even if one isn't concerned about it from an inclusivity standpoint.

Inclusivity is something BioWare is concerned about, however. We're well aware that Dragon Age can't be all things to all people, but that doesn't mean we can't do better-- and there's no harm in letting people request how they'd like to see us do better without assuming that BioWare's immediate response will be to lose all sense of perspective.

We can take it, and these players have just as much right to ask for what they want as anyone else would, say, to ask for a particular romance option or a gameplay feature. Please be respectful.

Thanks.

Nice to see the developers actually pay attention to these forums. Let me just add that as a POC (African American), I appreciate the effort that Bioware puts into making their games more accessible a wide audience. I primarily play console RPG's and this is what separates Bioware from most developers. Mass Effect 3 was the latest example of what I'm talking about. From Vega, Cortez, Jacob, Anderson, Ashley, Kasumi, Kai Leng, to Maya Brooks (one of my favorites) these guys were more than just the occasional "background vendor" or circle mage "x". You don't know how happy I was to see that Vivianne will be in DAI. I'm not saying I like POC characters more than other characters (I still mainly played with Liara and Tali in ME3), but it is still nice to know they are in the game. Keep up the good work guys.

[ArtemisMoons]

I find it odd that people say "Vivenne, enough said" or whatever and think that one dark skinned party member would make up for a sea of white people.
I highly doubt that all Rivani or Antivian people stay in their own countries or that all Fereldens or Orlesians are white. Why would it bother anyone to include more darker skinned NPCs?

We need more love and inclusivity, guys.