454 réponses à ce sujet

[Zu Long]

EntropicAngel wrote...

Zu Long wrote...

Indeed? Do your cousins not conisder themselves "real" black people? I have a cousin who has straight hair, yet considers herself to be a black person, because her skin pigmentation is quite dark. I have the feeling that if someone said she wasn't "really" black due to her hair, she would become rather cross and feel she had been insulted. I tend to leave race identification to the person in question, myself.

They consider themselves mixed, like I do. There's nothing wrong with not identifying as one or the other, in fact I prefer it.

So if we want to call Isabella mixed, sure. But not black.

Hmm. Again, because of my previous experience with my own cousin, I'm afraid I can't really agree with you in this case. I saw her as being black, and will continue to do so.

Modifié par Zu Long, 16 septembre 2013 - 03:31 .

[Silfren]

EntropicAngel wrote...

"As a person of color, I like who I am, and I don't want any aspect of that to be unseen or invisible. The need for colorblindness implies there is something shameful about the way God made me and the culture I was born into that we shouldn't talk about. Thus, colorblindness has helped make race into a taboo topic that polite people cannot openly discuss. And if you can't talk about it, you can't understand it, much less fix the racial problems that plague our society."

Junk like this makes that article hard to take seriously.

Would you mind clarifying why you think that's a junk statement, please?  I'd like to understand, but your statement doesn't really give me much to go on. 

[Xilizhra]

Silfren wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

Silfren wrote...

People who honestly believe that colorblindness is a good and appropriate thing--especially people who are actively interested in not being racist, should take the time to read up on exactly why PoC do not consider it the great and wonderful thing it's purported to be.

Here's an article from Psychology Today on the subject, for people who would object to any "non-neutral" source.

Beyond that, I'd recommend doing a Google search on something like "why colorblindness is racism" or similar.  I also recommend paying attention, and not forming kneejerk reactions.  Then again, the people in this thread who genuinely consider themselves to not be racist by virtue of their self-claimed colorblindness...being not-racist and all, you are perfectly willing to set aside your ego and try to learn something, I'm sure.

I believe that colorblindness is an ideal outcome but not a workable philosophy to deal in now because it doesn't match reality. I would prefer to strip away all arbitrary barriers that prevent us from identifying ourselves as simply one mass of humanity, but as that hasn't happened yet, we must acknowledge different circumstances of different races, that we may erode them.

Meh.  I see your point, but honestly I see no value in even wasting time mentioning "ideal outcomes."  You explain why in your own words about (un)workable philosophies and reality.  They're NOT workable, no, so why justify them with lip service comments about them being so awesome?

What I mean is that it's not workable at this moment, but it may become so later on, and it would be best to try to reach that point.

[Silfren]

EntropicAngel wrote...

Zu Long wrote...

Indeed? Do your cousins not conisder themselves "real" black people? I have a cousin who has straight hair, yet considers herself to be a black person, because her skin pigmentation is quite dark. I have the feeling that if someone said she wasn't "really" black due to her hair, she would become rather cross and feel she had been insulted. I tend to leave race identification to the person in question, myself.

They consider themselves mixed, like I do. There's nothing wrong with not identifying as one or the other, in fact I prefer it.

So if we want to call Isabella mixed, sure. But not black.

I don't understand this.  If you say there's nothing wrong with not identifying one particular way, as opposed to mix--and you say you even prefer this--then what is the issue with calling Isabela Black?  

I'm a white person so I don't have your experience, but I DO know women of mixed caucasian and African ancestry who DO have straight, smooth hair, yet who DO identify as Black.  You seem to think that this is incorrect on some level, however.  

As far as Isabela goes, you COULD chalk up her hair as being a limitation of the game engine.  For all we know, for that matter, she herself is of mixed ancestry.  But we DO know that she is Rivaini, and Rivain is, according to the lore, a nation of Black persons.  So how is it that she is not Black?  I'm unsure as to how the visual graphics are supposed to be the deciding factor, but you seem to think so.

[Boiny Bunny]

Not wanting to offend anybody - but I can't see why this topic keeps coming up. Thedas is a made up world, there are no rules to say that it's demographic spread of races is an exact match for present day (or medival) Earth. Perhaps somewhere in Thedas there is a race of humanoids (be them humans, elves, or any other species) with an Asian-inspired appearance, perhaps somewhere with an African-inspired appearance, but unless there is a good story-related reason for bringing them into the game, I doubt it's going to happen.

Bioware games are not actually literal platforms for racial/gender/anything else equality (nor are any video games). The under-representation of African/Asian people in popular media, be it television, movies, video games, etc. is a political and social issue. It's the prerogative of the writers to decide whether or not they want to engage in some form of social commentary through the world that they craft - but they are under no obligation to attempt to include every racial type that there is, simply on the basis that they exist, if it will interfere with the integrity of their world.

I'd say something similar to people demanding that the next Doctor (Doctor Who) be a female - if there is a good plot reason for doing so, go for it - but if not, don't be pressured into potentially compromising the integrity of the show because some fans want to turn it into a gender equality platform.

To be absolutely clear - I'm not in any way opposed to 'black' characters (or Asian, or any other racial group which has yet to appear) showing up in a future DA title - I just don't want it to be for the reason of pleasing the fans, if there is no real plot justification for it.

Modifié par Boiny Bunny, 16 septembre 2013 - 03:57 .

[Sylvianus]

God. It's such a pain to read EntropicAngel.

* rolling eyes *

[Xilizhra]

Also, I have a HECK of a problem with statements like "As a person of color, I like who I am," when a white person who said that would be eviscerated.

I'll volunteer to say that I enjoy being white. Not that I necessarily wouldn't enjoy being any other race, although obviously I can't know, especially because of the privilege thing, but I'm quite happy being white, yes. I do not, however, think this holds any objective importance in any way.

Also, colorblindness is unworkable at the moment because the various races are not equally positioned and you can't treat circumstances as wholly individual all of the time.

I should clarify. I'm talking genetically, not simply "culturally."

What she "identifies" as is really not relevant to her being a black person or not genetically.

There are two different sides there, and I tend to take the genetic side.

But race is... not really important genetically, so why does it matter?

Modifié par Xilizhra, 16 septembre 2013 - 03:54 .

[Silfren]

Boiny Bunny wrote...

Not wanting to offend anybody - but I can't see why this topic keeps coming up. Thedas is a made up world, there are no rules to say that it's demographic spread of races is an exact match for present day (or medival) Earth. Perhaps somewhere in Thedas there is a race of humanoids (be them humans, elves, or any other species) with an Asian-inspired appearance, perhaps somewhere with an African-inspired appearance, but unless there is a good story-related reason for brining them into the game, I doubt it's going to happen.

Bioware games are not actually literal platforms for racial/gender/anything else equality (nor are any video games). The under-representation of African/Asian people in popular media, be it television, movies, video games, etc. is a political and social issue. It's the prerogative of the writers to decide whether or not they want to engage in some form of social commentary through the world that they craft - but they are under no obligation to attempt to include every racial type that there is, simply on the basis that they exist, if it will interfere with the integrity of their world.

Blah blach more "games are not a social platform" bullsh*t, with a siding of "different races can't be included unless the story calls for it" donkey shlong.

[Boiny Bunny]

Silfren wrote...

Boiny Bunny wrote...

Not wanting to offend anybody - but I can't see why this topic keeps coming up. Thedas is a made up world, there are no rules to say that it's demographic spread of races is an exact match for present day (or medival) Earth. Perhaps somewhere in Thedas there is a race of humanoids (be them humans, elves, or any other species) with an Asian-inspired appearance, perhaps somewhere with an African-inspired appearance, but unless there is a good story-related reason for brining them into the game, I doubt it's going to happen.

Bioware games are not actually literal platforms for racial/gender/anything else equality (nor are any video games). The under-representation of African/Asian people in popular media, be it television, movies, video games, etc. is a political and social issue. It's the prerogative of the writers to decide whether or not they want to engage in some form of social commentary through the world that they craft - but they are under no obligation to attempt to include every racial type that there is, simply on the basis that they exist, if it will interfere with the integrity of their world.

Blah blach more "games are not a social platform" bullsh*t, with a siding of "different races can't be included unless the story calls for it" donkey shlong.

Ok - well thank you for that incredibly well thought out, mature, and informative response.

I appreciate that you may have had this discussion many times before and be sick of explaining your position, but there is just no point in posts like the one that you've just made.

If you want to have a rational discussion about the issue, please, by all means, let me know what your view is and why you believe that mine is incorrect.  More than happy to discuss in a level-headed manner.

[Xilizhra]

Silfren wrote...

Boiny Bunny wrote...

Not wanting to offend anybody - but I can't see why this topic keeps coming up. Thedas is a made up world, there are no rules to say that it's demographic spread of races is an exact match for present day (or medival) Earth. Perhaps somewhere in Thedas there is a race of humanoids (be them humans, elves, or any other species) with an Asian-inspired appearance, perhaps somewhere with an African-inspired appearance, but unless there is a good story-related reason for brining them into the game, I doubt it's going to happen.

Bioware games are not actually literal platforms for racial/gender/anything else equality (nor are any video games). The under-representation of African/Asian people in popular media, be it television, movies, video games, etc. is a political and social issue. It's the prerogative of the writers to decide whether or not they want to engage in some form of social commentary through the world that they craft - but they are under no obligation to attempt to include every racial type that there is, simply on the basis that they exist, if it will interfere with the integrity of their world.

Blah blach more "games are not a social platform" bullsh*t, with a siding of "different races can't be included unless the story calls for it" donkey shlong.

If you wished to add Asians to the setting, where would you put their origin? What would you do with them?

Ok - well thank you for that incredibly well thought out, mature, and informative response.

I appreciate
that you may have had this discussion many times before and be sick of
explaining your position, but there is just no point in posts like the
one that you've just made.

If you want to have a rational
discussion about the issue, please, by all means, let me know what your
view is and why you believe that mine is incorrect.  More than happy to
discuss in a level-headed manner.

My own position on the matter is that adding nonwhite people to the game is a frankly trivial matter that shouldn't require many if any storytelling zots, unless it involves adding a race that's never been shown to have a place on the continent at all... and even that wouldn't have to be so difficult necessarily.

Modifié par Xilizhra, 16 septembre 2013 - 04:04 .

[Silfren]

EntropicAngel wrote...

Silfren wrote...

EntropicAngel wrote...

"As a person of color, I like who I am, and I don't want any aspect of that to be unseen or invisible. The need for colorblindness implies there is something shameful about the way God made me and the culture I was born into that we shouldn't talk about. Thus, colorblindness has helped make race into a taboo topic that polite people cannot openly discuss. And if you can't talk about it, you can't understand it, much less fix the racial problems that plague our society."

Junk like this makes that article hard to take seriously.

Would you mind clarifying why you think that's a junk statement, please?  I'd like to understand, but your statement doesn't really give me much to go on. 

Colorblindness implies nothing about anything being "shameful." That's pure bullscat. Colorblindness simply says that you treat them like you treat everyone else. That doesn't prevent you from being a "person of color."

Also, I have a HECK of a problem with statements like "As a person of color, I like who I am," when a white person who said that would be eviscerated.

Colorblindness is not about not acknowledging the race, culture, etc, of others, it's about not letting that affect how you treat them. From the article: "Colorblindness is the racial ideology that posits the best way to end discrimination is by treating individuals as equally as possible, without regard to race, culture, or ethnicity."

Thus, it doesn't make race a taboo topic at all. It simply makes it a topic and not an impetus for treatment--which is how it should be.

Maybe there's a disconnect between the article's definition of colorblindness and what the average person means when they claim it, but I'm going to go out on a limb here and point out that it is my experience--directly, from my own behavior and observationally, that when the average person--and I've only EVER heard white people claim race-based colorblindness--they mean it in the most privileged, clueless way possible.  I think it's THAT attitude that the article is trying to attack.

I DO think that colorblindness is just another form of racism, pervasive specifically because it is so invisible, and absolutely JUST as harmful as the more obvious, in-your-face variety, if not moreso.

[Bionuts]

colorblind=all whiteys

[LobselVith8]

EntropicAngel wrote...

Colorblindness implies nothing about anything being "shameful." That's pure bullscat. Colorblindness simply says that you treat them like you treat everyone else. That doesn't prevent you from being a "person of color."

I wouldn't see it as being colorblind; a difference of opinion on the word, I suppose. I think Silfren's point is about being cognizant of the differences among people, but treating everyone with respect and dignity, rather than pretending that everyone is the same.

EntropicAngel wrote...

Also, I have a HECK of a problem with statements like "As a person of color, I like who I am," when a white person who said that would be eviscerated. 

Considering how certain groups are marginalized, stereotyped, and perceived, I don't see anything wrong with someone liking who they are.

[Rixatrix]

If the aim is equality, why not aim for a means by which all cultures are considered equally (multiculturalism) instead of ignored equally (color-blindness)? Attempting color-blindness in the current racial landscape, at least in the U.S., is dismissive of a lot problems that have not yet been resolved.

The "without regard to race" part of the "color-blindness" definition makes it problematic.  Why not implement equality while still acknowledging that people have different cultural backgrounds?  Why must they be effectively erased in order to achieve the goal of equality?

Modifié par BlueMoonSeraphim, 16 septembre 2013 - 04:21 .

[LobselVith8]

Boiny Bunny wrote...

Ok - well thank you for that incredibly well thought out, mature, and informative response.

I appreciate that you may have had this discussion many times before and be sick of explaining your position, but there is just no point in posts like the one that you've just made.

If you want to have a rational discussion about the issue, please, by all means, let me know what your view is and why you believe that mine is incorrect.  More than happy to discuss in a level-headed manner.

I think, in part, it's that people like to see themselves reflected in genres that they enjoy, rather than continuing to be marginalized to the point where people like them simply don't exist in certain fictional universes. In a society where we have real and fictional people "whitewashed" all the time, it's going to be an issue. Why does someone need to justify the inclusion of other non-white people in Thedas?

[Silfren]

Xilizhra wrote...

Silfren wrote...

Boiny Bunny wrote...

Not wanting to offend anybody - but I can't see why this topic keeps coming up. Thedas is a made up world, there are no rules to say that it's demographic spread of races is an exact match for present day (or medival) Earth. Perhaps somewhere in Thedas there is a race of humanoids (be them humans, elves, or any other species) with an Asian-inspired appearance, perhaps somewhere with an African-inspired appearance, but unless there is a good story-related reason for brining them into the game, I doubt it's going to happen.

Bioware games are not actually literal platforms for racial/gender/anything else equality (nor are any video games). The under-representation of African/Asian people in popular media, be it television, movies, video games, etc. is a political and social issue. It's the prerogative of the writers to decide whether or not they want to engage in some form of social commentary through the world that they craft - but they are under no obligation to attempt to include every racial type that there is, simply on the basis that they exist, if it will interfere with the integrity of their world.

Blah blach more "games are not a social platform" bullsh*t, with a siding of "different races can't be included unless the story calls for it" donkey shlong.

If you wished to add Asians to the setting, where would you put their origin? What would you do with them?

I would simply add them.  I don't see why it is so monumentally important that the addition of different ethnicities have a justifiable reason.  I DO suspect that the people screaming the loudest that it would break the game for them to suddenly see inexplicable non-white people...probably wouldn't have been totally okay with those different groups having been a part of the setting from the start as they'd like to believe.

I'd have LIKED Thedas to have been written so that many different ethnicities were shown from the start, and not just a handful--a very small handful--of token PoCs. 

All that said, don't forget that we DO have a character in Denerim who most people peg as Asian.  The woman you speak to around the market stalls who tells you she fled Orlais.  Also remember that we know NOTHING about the ethnic makeup of Orlais, and it is an empire.  There's no reason why Orlais couldn't be crawling with different ethnicities.  There's also no reason why the many other nations we've heard of but not seen could not be Asian, or Indian, or Arab, or whatever.  We've heard of a lot of different nations, but to the best of my knowledge, we've only been given ethnic "references" for a scant few, in the form of Antiva, and Rivain.

[Boiny Bunny]

Xilizhra wrote...

Boiny Bunny wrote...

Ok - well thank you for that incredibly well thought out, mature, and informative response.

I appreciate
that you may have had this discussion many times before and be sick of
explaining your position, but there is just no point in posts like the
one that you've just made.

If you want to have a rational
discussion about the issue, please, by all means, let me know what your
view is and why you believe that mine is incorrect.  More than happy to
discuss in a level-headed manner.

My own position on the matter is that adding nonwhite people to the game is a frankly trivial matter that shouldn't require many if any storytelling zots, unless it involves adding a race that's never been shown to have a place on the continent at all... and even that wouldn't have to be so difficult necessarily.

I'm inclined to agree with you broadly - on paper, it would require little effort for Bioware to make up a new, previously unheard of (say) Asian culture in the world of Thedas, and to start to integrate them into the world that we already know of - but it would hardly be seamless.  As said culture has never been referenced, presumably it would have to be historically never before encountered (with respect to in-world lore).  Meaning, if Bioware actually wanted to put a reasonable proportion of Asian characters in the game, they would need to explain how said people suddenly appeared and have already integrated themselves into the rest of the known world (would be easier if a large time-skip between games was used).  Or perhaps the player character could simply visit their nation - avoiding the need for such details?

There are certainly ways - I guess it's just a question of, putting aside whether or not we think the demographic mix in Thedas is socially appropriate compared to the demographic mix in modern [insert whatever country you live in here], is there a good plot reason for introducing them?

[Silfren]

Boiny Bunny,

Put simply, the whole "social commentary" argument is a stupid one, because an all-white (or all-white plus token non-whites) landscape IS JUST AS MUCH A SOCIAL STATEMENT as a truly multicultural one would be. Why this isn't obvious is beyond me, but it's a very common argument, and a bloody stupid one.

Modifié par Silfren, 16 septembre 2013 - 04:40 .