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[Swagger7]

Silfren wrote...

EntropicAngel wrote...

Silfren wrote...

EntropicAngel wrote...

"As a person of color, I like who I am, and I don't want any aspect of that to be unseen or invisible. The need for colorblindness implies there is something shameful about the way God made me and the culture I was born into that we shouldn't talk about. Thus, colorblindness has helped make race into a taboo topic that polite people cannot openly discuss. And if you can't talk about it, you can't understand it, much less fix the racial problems that plague our society."

Junk like this makes that article hard to take seriously.

Would you mind clarifying why you think that's a junk statement, please?  I'd like to understand, but your statement doesn't really give me much to go on. 

Colorblindness implies nothing about anything being "shameful." That's pure bullscat. Colorblindness simply says that you treat them like you treat everyone else. That doesn't prevent you from being a "person of color."

Also, I have a HECK of a problem with statements like "As a person of color, I like who I am," when a white person who said that would be eviscerated.

Colorblindness is not about not acknowledging the race, culture, etc, of others, it's about not letting that affect how you treat them. From the article: "Colorblindness is the racial ideology that posits the best way to end discrimination is by treating individuals as equally as possible, without regard to race, culture, or ethnicity."

Thus, it doesn't make race a taboo topic at all. It simply makes it a topic and not an impetus for treatment--which is how it should be.

Maybe there's a disconnect between the article's definition of colorblindness and what the average person means when they claim it, but I'm going to go out on a limb here and point out that it is my experience--directly, from my own behavior and observationally, that when the average person--and I've only EVER heard white people claim race-based colorblindness--they mean it in the most privileged, clueless way possible.  I think it's THAT attitude that the article is trying to attack.

I DO think that colorblindness is just another form of racism, pervasive specifically because it is so invisible, and absolutely JUST as harmful as the more obvious, in-your-face variety, if not moreso.

I'd just like to chime in to say that that kind of colorblindness (the willful, privileged kind) isn't what I was talking about when I agreed with Xilizhra on future goals.  Basically, I think we should currently be mindful of privilege and unequal treatment so that we might address those issues.  Then, sometime in the future, once racism has essentially died off, people of all races will be free to become "colorblind", as it will be a non-issue.  Yeah, this is some far-off future we're talking about, but it's always good to have an endpoint in sight.

[Boiny Bunny]

Silfren wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

Silfren wrote...

Boiny Bunny wrote...

Not wanting to offend anybody - but I can't see why this topic keeps coming up. Thedas is a made up world, there are no rules to say that it's demographic spread of races is an exact match for present day (or medival) Earth. Perhaps somewhere in Thedas there is a race of humanoids (be them humans, elves, or any other species) with an Asian-inspired appearance, perhaps somewhere with an African-inspired appearance, but unless there is a good story-related reason for brining them into the game, I doubt it's going to happen.

Bioware games are not actually literal platforms for racial/gender/anything else equality (nor are any video games). The under-representation of African/Asian people in popular media, be it television, movies, video games, etc. is a political and social issue. It's the prerogative of the writers to decide whether or not they want to engage in some form of social commentary through the world that they craft - but they are under no obligation to attempt to include every racial type that there is, simply on the basis that they exist, if it will interfere with the integrity of their world.

Blah blach more "games are not a social platform" bullsh*t, with a siding of "different races can't be included unless the story calls for it" donkey shlong.

If you wished to add Asians to the setting, where would you put their origin? What would you do with them?

I would simply add them.  I don't see why it is so monumentally important that the addition of different ethnicities have a justifiable reason.  I DO suspect that the people screaming the loudest that it would break the game for them to suddenly see inexplicable non-white people...probably wouldn't have been totally okay with those different groups having been a part of the setting from the start as they'd like to believe.

I'd have LIKED Thedas to have been written so that many different ethnicities were shown from the start, and not just a handful--a very small handful--of token PoCs. 

All that said, don't forget that we DO have a character in Denerim who most people peg as Asian.  The woman you speak to around the market stalls who tells you she fled Orlais.  Also remember that we know NOTHING about the ethnic makeup of Orlais, and it is an empire.  There's no reason why Orlais couldn't be crawling with different ethnicities.  There's also no reason why the many other nations we've heard of but not seen could not be Asian, or Indian, or Arab, or whatever.  We've heard of a lot of different nations, but to the best of my knowledge, we've only been given ethnic "references" for a scant few, in the form of Antiva, and Rivain.

Sure - but by the same token, why is it so monumentally important that the addition of different ethnicities should be treated as an absolute priority, to put above most other things?  If Thedas had been written from the start to include multiple ethnicities (in significant numbers, not reduced to token cameos), I wouldn't have any problem with that.  Nor do I have a problem with Bioware adding a race if there is a decent story reason for it.  But they didn't create the game with plenty of ethnicities.  More than that, the people of the world never refer to other ethnicities.  For a large number of African or Asian inspired NPCs to just 'appear' in the world would require a good deal of story explanation.  Without a large time break between games, such a move would have the potential to partially break the lore of the universe (i.e. insert a large retcon that such peoples had always existed all over Thedas).

I guess another important question here really is, do you apply the same logic, fair and square, to Jade Empire?  Should there have been a large number of Caucasian and African looking NPCs, for the sake of it?  What about the single non-Asian character who exists in the game?  The game makes him look an absolute fool, and forces the player to make traditional medieval European style culture and views look pathetic and under-developed compared to the obviously superior Asian inspired alternatives.  Is this appropriate?  Would it have been on the same level of appropriateness if the character had been a single Asian NPC in DA:O, and the tables turned around (player forced to make Asian culture/customs look primitive and foolish compared to European)?

[MarchWaltz]

I plan to have my Inquisitor brown...just like moi

[Boiny Bunny]

Silfren wrote...

Boiny Bunny,

Put simply, the whole "social commentary" argument is a stupid one, because an all-white (or all-white plus token non-whites) landscape IS JUST AS MUCH A SOCIAL STATEMENT as a truly multicultural one would be. Why this isn't obvious is beyond me, but it's a very common argument, and a bloody stupid one.

Ok, well that at least gives me some idea of what you views are (thank you).  I agree with you that making a game of almost entirely Caucasian characters is just as much a social statement as having a truly multicultural one.

If you go back and re-read my post, you'll see that I quite clearly point out that Bioware are most welcome to make whatever kind of social statements/commentaries that they like when they are designing a world.

That wasn't my point - which was that once you've already established a world and it's lore, making a fairly drastic change, like converting Thedas into a truly multicultural society, would require some significant story modifications - this might come in the form of a large retcon (they were always there), or a plot device like a 50 year skip between DA2 and DA:I (not going to happen, I know) where Asian and African cultures were discovered and migrated into Thedas in the intervening years.

Sorry if I'm not being entirely clear.  To summarise, my post isn't about the social statement that Bioware chose to make in first designing Thedas and its population, but rather, about them being pressured by the social commentary of their fans to make a large change to their world which might otherwise be outside their vision, and/or require a plot/lore compromise to effect.

[Bionuts]

Geez I'm asking for a nice package of dark skinned folk. Not for the my tv screen to be covered by brownies.

[Plaintiff]

Bioware are big boys and girls, they can handle a little "pressure". Nobody is bullying them. Furthermore, in their interactions with the forum, they seem like intelligent people, capable of acknowledging that their work has aspects that are problematic or even offensive.

When you put your creative work out there for public consumption, you are going to be criticised, whether that be for your portrayal of homosexuals, your lack of ethnic diversity, or simply a boring plot. Nobody is saying that Bioware is required to do anything, least of all change their fictional world to fit our exact specifications. But by that same token, if you insist on being inflexible, you don't get to complain about being criticised.

Modifié par Plaintiff, 16 septembre 2013 - 05:09 .

[Zu Long]

Boiny Bunny wrote...

Silfren wrote...

Boiny Bunny,

Put simply, the whole "social commentary" argument is a stupid one, because an all-white (or all-white plus token non-whites) landscape IS JUST AS MUCH A SOCIAL STATEMENT as a truly multicultural one would be. Why this isn't obvious is beyond me, but it's a very common argument, and a bloody stupid one.

Ok, well that at least gives me some idea of what you views are (thank you).  I agree with you that making a game of almost entirely Caucasian characters is just as much a social statement as having a truly multicultural one.

If you go back and re-read my post, you'll see that I quite clearly point out that Bioware are most welcome to make whatever kind of social statements/commentaries that they like when they are designing a world.

That wasn't my point - which was that once you've already established a world and it's lore, making a fairly drastic change, like converting Thedas into a truly multicultural society, would require some significant story modifications - this might come in the form of a large retcon (they were always there), or a plot device like a 50 year skip between DA2 and DA:I (not going to happen, I know) where Asian and African cultures were discovered and migrated into Thedas in the intervening years.

Sorry if I'm not being entirely clear.  To summarise, my post isn't about the social statement that Bioware chose to make in first designing Thedas and its population, but rather, about them being pressured by the social commentary of their fans to make a large change to their world which might otherwise be outside their vision, and/or require a plot/lore compromise to effect.

Why would an Asian culture even be necessary though? Wouldn't it be easier to simply have some people in the game simply be of Asian ethnicity, and would it even be required to explain why? Thedas, though culturally similar to Medieval Europe, is not actually Medieval Europe, as you pointed out in a previous post. It is not required to adhere to Medieval Europe's ethnicity, though it has, so far. However, we've only seen Ferelden and Kirkwall. Is there any reason Orlais, for instance, couldn't have a large population of Asian ethnicity who culturally are no different from other Orlesians?

This question isn't aimed at you specifically, but is something that your conversation with Silfren caused me to wonder about.

Modifié par Zu Long, 16 septembre 2013 - 05:08 .

[Boiny Bunny]

Zu Long wrote...

Boiny Bunny wrote...

Silfren wrote...

Boiny Bunny,

Put simply, the whole "social commentary" argument is a stupid one, because an all-white (or all-white plus token non-whites) landscape IS JUST AS MUCH A SOCIAL STATEMENT as a truly multicultural one would be. Why this isn't obvious is beyond me, but it's a very common argument, and a bloody stupid one.

Ok, well that at least gives me some idea of what you views are (thank you).  I agree with you that making a game of almost entirely Caucasian characters is just as much a social statement as having a truly multicultural one.

If you go back and re-read my post, you'll see that I quite clearly point out that Bioware are most welcome to make whatever kind of social statements/commentaries that they like when they are designing a world.

That wasn't my point - which was that once you've already established a world and it's lore, making a fairly drastic change, like converting Thedas into a truly multicultural society, would require some significant story modifications - this might come in the form of a large retcon (they were always there), or a plot device like a 50 year skip between DA2 and DA:I (not going to happen, I know) where Asian and African cultures were discovered and migrated into Thedas in the intervening years.

Sorry if I'm not being entirely clear.  To summarise, my post isn't about the social statement that Bioware chose to make in first designing Thedas and its population, but rather, about them being pressured by the social commentary of their fans to make a large change to their world which might otherwise be outside their vision, and/or require a plot/lore compromise to effect.

Why would an Asian culture even be necessary though? Wouldn't it be easier to simply have some people in the game simply be of Asian ethnicity, and would it even be required to explain why? Thedas, though culturally similar to Medieval Europe, is not actually Medieval Europe, as you pointed out in a previous post. It is not required to adhere to Medieval Europe's ethnicity, though it has, so far. However, we've only seen Ferelden and Kirkwall. Is there any reason Orlais, for instance, couldn't have a large population of Asian ethnicity who culturally are no different from other Orlesians?

This question isn't aimed at you specifically, but is something that your conversation with Silfren caused me to wonder about.

Very good questions and interesting things to think about.  If I had to take a few stabs, I might guess that:

1) If you had an Asian ethnicity in the game (say as 50% of the Orlesian population), but they followed Orlesian culture (implied heavily to be French) and had none of their own - would that not be in the same league of offensiveness as not including them in the first place?

2) (This might be going beyond the scope of what Bioware writers are willing to consider for lore purposes but) from an evolutionary standpoint, the very slight physical differences between all of us humans, regardless of which race we belong to, are a direct result of evolving in different environments, with different challenges (after a certain date, when we spread out from Africa).  It wouldn't make much sense for 2 distinct races of humans to have originated in one country (though perhaps you could introduce a story element about the Asian looking population in Orlais having migrated there 1000 years ago after a calamity destroyed their original nation?)

You could possibly introduce an Asian culture as a collection of travelers who only happen to inhabit the sections of Thedas we have yet to witness directly - who came to Thedas generations ago from lands unknown?  I'm sure there are plenty of other things Bioware could think of...

[ForThessia]

I love it when the 'Race Warriors' come out. Some of the grossest, most hypocritical people I've ever seen.

[Boiny Bunny]

Plaintiff wrote...

Bioware are big boys and girls, they can handle a little "pressure". Nobody is bullying them. Furthermore, in their interactions with the forum, they seem like intelligent people, capable of acknowledging that their work has aspects that are problematic or even offensive.

When you put your creative work out there for public consumption, you are going to be criticised, whether that be for your portrayal of homosexuals, your lack of ethnic diversity, or simply a boring plot. Nobody is saying that Bioware is required to do anything, least of all change their fictional world to fit their exact specifications. But by that same token, if you insist on being inflexible, you don't get to complain about being criticised.

Very well said, and agreed.

The question is more one of why didn't Bioware make Thedas a more multicultural place to start with, than why don't they retcon a bunch of additional races in now?  Perhaps threads like these will encourage them to think more carefully about these issues when creating new IP (regardless of whether or not it is heavily inspired by actual history).

[Rixatrix]

Oh, the typical anti-"SJW" sentiment: "I just want to say that I think it's stupid for people to take a stand on important issues!"

Do you say it for the applause, applause, for the applause-plause-plause?

[Silfren]

I'm going to expand my previous post...

Boiny Bunny wrote...

Bioware games are not actually literal platforms for racial/gender/anything else equality (nor are any video games). The under-representation of African/Asian people in popular media, be it television, movies, video games, etc. is a political and social issue. It's the prerogative of the writers to decide whether or not they want to engage in some form of social commentary through the world that they craft - but they are under no obligation to attempt to include every racial type that there is, simply on the basis that they exist, if it will interfere with the integrity of their world.

Not gonna lie, my previous response is, as far as I'm concerned, exactly the kind of reply this deserves, but I will go ahead and elaborate.

All forms of social media are platforms for equality, because they both inform and are informed by the larger culture. Any time a story, whatever medium is used to tell it, whitewashes a historical setting that in actuality was multicultural, a social statement is being made. Any time a story takes a fictional setting and makes it all white, or nearly all-white, with only a very small number of PoCs, a social statement is being made. That white people--and it IS white people--only ever make noise about a given medium using its story as social commentary when that medium portrays substantial numbers of PoCs, or LGBT persons, etc., says more about those people's limited perspective than anything else.

Yes, the under-representation of people who aren't white is a political and social issue. But you are grossly mistaken if you are trying to claim that this means that entertainment media has no effect on the political or social climate. As I wrote elsewhere, media reinforces social perceptions as much as it is informed by them. Ever seen a t.v. show that is either set in New Orleans, or has one show tthat takes place in New Orleans, and yet there's exactly one, or even zero, Black characters, minor or major? I've seen a few. Can you guess why that is kind of a problem? A serious problem?

Yes, it's the prerogative of the writers whether they want to create a world that features a healthy mix of different ethnicities, such that white is not the default. But why in the world do you think that they are NOT making a social commentary by making white the default and NOT including different ethnicities. Seriously, think that through. How is one an example of social commentary, but not the other.

Bioware is a Canadian company. Canada is no more 100% white than the United States is. Medieval Europe, also, was not 100% white (which I mention only because the most common defense for 99.98% white Thedas is because it's totally meant to be medieval-era Europe). So that the writers create a setting which IS nearly all white, with only token PoCs, DOES illustrate the writers' perception of society. Consciously or not, they ARE projecting a very specific message about their ideas of the socio-cultural landscape.

Modifié par Silfren, 16 septembre 2013 - 05:27 .

[In Exile]

Boiny Bunny wrote...
The question is more one of why didn't Bioware make Thedas a more multicultural place to start with, than why don't they retcon a bunch of additional races in now?  Perhaps threads like these will encourage them to think more carefully about these issues when creating new IP (regardless of whether or not it is heavily inspired by actual history).

Bioware made a traditional fantasy game. And fantasy is weirdly racist in its underlying architecture, by our modern standards. You don't need to go much farther than this business with the fantasy races as an analogy for IRL racism... where the humans are all white and the "non-humans" are supposed to be the analogy for other racial, ethnic or religious groups. 

[Silfren]

Boiny Bunny wrote...

I guess another important question here really is, do you apply the same logic, fair and square, to Jade Empire?  Should there have been a large number of Caucasian and African looking NPCs, for the sake of it?  What about the single non-Asian character who exists in the game?  The game makes him look an absolute fool, and forces the player to make traditional medieval European style culture and views look pathetic and under-developed compared to the obviously superior Asian inspired alternatives.  Is this appropriate?  Would it have been on the same level of appropriateness if the character had been a single Asian NPC in DA:O, and the tables turned around (player forced to make Asian culture/customs look primitive and foolish compared to European)?

Since people bring up Jade Empire a lot, and I never see this point made, I'll address this with the salient point:

The industry is flooded with games with predominantly white landscapes.  The reason why there is no hue and cry raised about Jade Empire is NOT because of some double standard, it's because Jade Empire is one game that features a PoC cast. 

If we had an industry awash with games that featured some truly multicultural stories, some heavily African-centric stories, some heavily Asian-centric, some heavily Latino-centric, and so on, then there would be no issue.  But what we have is an industry that produces mostly games with all-white casts for a presumed all-white audience.  The games like Jade Empire that feature all-non-white casts are NOT counter-examples of the same problem, but in reverse, as is oh-so-snidely hinted when it's brought up.  The fact is, if Jade Empire was one game among many, we wouldn't be having this discussion, because the problem would not exist.

[Silfren]

Boiny Bunny wrote...

That wasn't my point - which was that once you've already established a world and it's lore, making a fairly drastic change, like converting Thedas into a truly multicultural society, would require some significant story modifications - this might come in the form of a large retcon (they were always there), or a plot device like a 50 year skip between DA2 and DA:I (not going to happen, I know) where Asian and African cultures were discovered and migrated into Thedas in the intervening years.

Bah.  They wouldn't have to retcon their lore or anything.  It is already established, for one, that the people of Rivain are black.  Far as I know, there's been no ethnicity brought up for quite a few named areas.  And again, Orlais could very easily be a multicultural city.  We've not been given any lore that would rule it out.  

But no, they don't have to retcon anything, or make any story modifications.  There is NOTHING stopping them from making the next game highly multicultural, even in areas we've already seen, and letting it go without any explanation.  They did it for the elves, and they could well do it across the board for skin color.  

I know a lot of people would b*tch and moan, but I do NOT believe it would somehow hurt Bioware's credibility, no more so than, say, the retconning of Leliana, etc.  I don't think it would kill the franchise, and I daresay that many people who claim it would break the lore/their immersion, would keep right on playing, anyway.

Modifié par Silfren, 16 septembre 2013 - 05:51 .

[Plaintiff]

Having never played Jade Empire, I don't feel qualified to comment on the specific instance people are talking about, but generally speaking, lighthearted ribbing is not the same thing as actual, systemic discrimination.

[Silfren]

In Exile wrote...

Boiny Bunny wrote...
The question is more one of why didn't Bioware make Thedas a more multicultural place to start with, than why don't they retcon a bunch of additional races in now?  Perhaps threads like these will encourage them to think more carefully about these issues when creating new IP (regardless of whether or not it is heavily inspired by actual history).

Bioware made a traditional fantasy game. And fantasy is weirdly racist in its underlying architecture, by our modern standards. You don't need to go much farther than this business with the fantasy races as an analogy for IRL racism... where the humans are all white and the "non-humans" are supposed to be the analogy for other racial, ethnic or religious groups. 

This is a very good point; I hadn't considered this angle, but it seems painfully obvious, yes.  White=human...PoC=...all those icky non-humans.

[Zu Long]

Boiny Bunny wrote...

Zu Long wrote...

Why would an Asian culture even be necessary though? Wouldn't it be easier to simply have some people in the game simply be of Asian ethnicity, and would it even be required to explain why? Thedas, though culturally similar to Medieval Europe, is not actually Medieval Europe, as you pointed out in a previous post. It is not required to adhere to Medieval Europe's ethnicity, though it has, so far. However, we've only seen Ferelden and Kirkwall. Is there any reason Orlais, for instance, couldn't have a large population of Asian ethnicity who culturally are no different from other Orlesians?

This question isn't aimed at you specifically, but is something that your conversation with Silfren caused me to wonder about.

Very good questions and interesting things to think about.  If I had to take a few stabs, I might guess that:

1) If you had an Asian ethnicity in the game (say as 50% of the Orlesian population), but they followed Orlesian culture (implied heavily to be French) and had none of their own - would that not be in the same league of offensiveness as not including them in the first place?

2) (This might be going beyond the scope of what Bioware writers are willing to consider for lore purposes but) from an evolutionary standpoint, the very slight physical differences between all of us humans, regardless of which race we belong to, are a direct result of evolving in different environments, with different challenges (after a certain date, when we spread out from Africa).  It wouldn't make much sense for 2 distinct races of humans to have originated in one country (though perhaps you could introduce a story element about the Asian looking population in Orlais having migrated there 1000 years ago after a calamity destroyed their original nation?)

You could possibly introduce an Asian culture as a collection of travelers who only happen to inhabit the sections of Thedas we have yet to witness directly - who came to Thedas generations ago from lands unknown?  I'm sure there are plenty of other things Bioware could think of...

As to number 2 we have Elves, Qunari, and Dwarves with VASTLY different genetic traits in the game, with no explanation as to how that happened. Bioware is not required to produce a comprehensive anthropological model for how the racial makeup of Thedas came about, so I see no reason for them to even bother providing an explanation, if they wanted to do such a thing.

It's point number 1 that gets thorny, and I wasn't sure myself, which is why I threw it out there. Being a white person, I can't really rely on my own inclinations here. If there were a game based around a samurai/ancient japanese culture where 25% of people are ethnically white, my reaction would be "Awesome!" and I would continue on from there. However I've been told THAT would be offensive and a form of cultural colonization, according to some.

I've sometimes wondered if the reason white artists often stick to depicting mostly caucasians and caucasian culture in their art is because its safer than trying to wade into places like this. The movie The Lone Ranger was released this summer and there was a large outcry because A) Johnny Depp was playing Tanto, a Native American, and his character's appearance was stylistically based on this painting which was created by a white person who admitted it was mostly a creation of their imagination rather than being based on any specific tribe.

Some people online got really offended by this, and it bothered me that no matter how hard I tried, I couldn't really understand why. It was as foreign to me as people getting upset over Idris Elba playing Heimdall in the Thor movies, but I didn't feel like it was coming from the same place.

Anyone else have thoughts on this?

[Boiny Bunny]

Silfren wrote...

I'm going to expand my previous post...

Boiny Bunny wrote...

Bioware games are not actually literal platforms for racial/gender/anything else equality (nor are any video games). The under-representation of African/Asian people in popular media, be it television, movies, video games, etc. is a political and social issue. It's the prerogative of the writers to decide whether or not they want to engage in some form of social commentary through the world that they craft - but they are under no obligation to attempt to include every racial type that there is, simply on the basis that they exist, if it will interfere with the integrity of their world.

Not gonna lie, my previous response is, as far as I'm concerned, exactly the kind of reply this deserves, but I will go ahead and elaborate.

All forms of social media are platforms for equality, because they both inform and are informed by the larger culture. Any time a story, whatever medium is used to tell it, whitewashes a historical setting that in actuality was multicultural, a social statement is being made. Any time a story takes a fictional setting and makes it all white, or nearly all-white, with only a very small number of PoCs, a social statement is being made. That white people--and it IS white people--only ever make noise about a given medium using its story as social commentary when that medium portrays substantial numbers of PoCs, or LGBT persons, etc., says more about those people's limited perspective than anything else.

I think you're misinterpreting what I said.  In hindsight, it could have been worded better - but it also looks like you've missed some of my subsequent posts which elaborate a lot more.  I've said this somewhere above, and I'll happily repeat it - I agree with you completely that Bioware themselves were making a social statement when they decided to make the population of Thedas predominately Caucasian.

With respect to my comment about 'not actually literal platforms' - I was not referring in any way to Bioware making social commentary themselves.  Rather, I was referring to consumers of Bioware products using the products as platforms for equality themselves, by demanding changes to the games in order that they more closely align with their own desired social views.

Let me give you another example.  Suppose that there is a popular game series which has no LGBT characters in it.  At some point, a group of consumers of said game series decide that the lack of LGBT characters is reinforcing inequality for LGBT people, and thus begin requesting that LGBT characters be inserted into the game.  That is consumers of the product, attempting to use the product as a platform for equality.  It says nothing about why the game creators did not include LGBT characters in the first place.

Please, go back and re-read my post with that in mind.

Yes, the under-representation of people who aren't white is a political and social issue. But you are grossly mistaken if you are trying to claim that this means that entertainment media has no effect on the political or social climate. As I wrote elsewhere, media reinforces social perceptions as much as it is informed by them. Ever seen a t.v. show that is either set in New Orleans, or has one show tthat takes place in New Orleans, and yet there's exactly one, or even zero, Black characters, minor or major? I've seen a few. Can you guess why that is kind of a problem? A serious problem?

I haven't made such a claim, or anything even alluding to such, in any of my posts.  Once again, I agree with you completely - 'whitewashing' a real/historical setting is a large problem in popular media (I don't live in the US, so don't have any comments to make about TV shows covering New Orleans.  I live in Australia, and unfortunately, can report that most of our fictional television shows similarly whitewash out beyond token, and usually offensively stereotypical, appearances).

Yes, it's the prerogative of the writers whether they want to create a world that features a healthy mix of different ethnicities, such that white is not the default. But why in the world do you think that they are NOT making a social commentary by making white the default and NOT including different ethnicities. Seriously, think that through. How is one an example of social commentary, but not the other.

I don't - at all.  Refer to my first comment in this post, above.  Again, probably my poor wording more than anything.

Bioware is a Canadian company. Canada is no more 100% white than the United States is. Medieval Europe, also, was not 100% white (which I mention only because the most common defense for 99.98% white Thedas is because it's totally meant to be medieval-era Europe). So that the writers create a setting which IS nearly all white, with only token PoCs, DOES illustrate the writers' perception of society. Consciously or not, they ARE projecting a very specific message about their ideas of the socio-cultural landscape.

Yep, agreed once more.  Of course, it gets more complicated when the business people get involved.  Who knows if Bioware had originally planned a more multi-cultural setting for DA, but was overridden by marketing/etc.

Modifié par Boiny Bunny, 16 septembre 2013 - 05:58 .

[Plaintiff]

Silfren wrote...

Boiny Bunny wrote...

That wasn't my point - which was that once you've already established a world and it's lore, making a fairly drastic change, like converting Thedas into a truly multicultural society, would require some significant story modifications - this might come in the form of a large retcon (they were always there), or a plot device like a 50 year skip between DA2 and DA:I (not going to happen, I know) where Asian and African cultures were discovered and migrated into Thedas in the intervening years.

Bah.  They wouldn't have to retcon their lore or anything.  It is already established, for one, that the people of Rivain are black.  Far as I know, there's been no ethnicity brought up for quite a few named areas.  And again, Orlais could very easily be a multicultural city.  We've not been given any lore that would rule it out.  

But no, they don't have to retcon anything, or make any story modifications.  There is NOTHING stopping them from making the next game highly multicultural, even in areas we've already seen, and letting it go without any explanation.  They did it for the elves, and they could well do it across the board for skin color.  

I know a lot of people would b*tch and moan, but I do NOT believe it would somehow hurt Bioware's credibility, no more so than, say, the retconning of Leliana, etc.  I don't think it would kill the franchise, and I daresay that many people who claim it would break the lore/their immersion, would keep right on playing, anyway.

Just quoting to add; We've seen dark-skinned Orlesians already (at least one) and I seem to recall at least a few instances where David Gaider has come out on the forums and explicitly said that Ferelden and other countries are not necessarily homogenously white. As it is, that DA:O and DA2 both allowed you to create a dark-skinned Ferelden character heavily suggests to me that such characters are not out of place, even if players perceive them to be. It seems more to me like Bioware just didn't think about it very hard when making character models.

If this issue really needs "explanation", just have a wider variety of skin colours strolling in the background in future. And if the player feels the need to have their character question it, Passerby #12 can say "What are you talking about? It's always been this way."

[Fredward]

The problem with with the whole colourblindness argument is that the people who make it often think they've reached this quasi-enlightenment stage. And I'm saying this because I thought this way many moons ago. But I quickly realized that as a white person I'm going to be MUCH less inclined to see the problem. There's nothing inherently bad about it, it would work... in a perfect world. Whether or not YOU are colourblind though it's not going to erase the fact that other people aren't. If you're race is still not being included in various forms of media (which AGAIN is not happening in DA, except on the covers and the "defualt" protag naturally) colourblindness is not going to make the fact that discrimination is happening away. And if you are part of society's all-powerful default the colourblindness is a very easy escape into wilfull ignorance.

Someone said that it'd be nice if people started seeing everyone as people and not a colour. That'd be ideal really.

Which brings me to another point, ever notice how racist EXTREMELY politically correct people are? They use it like a shield. One of my textbooks said that if you're speaking to a black client you should avoid phrases like "black sheep" because it's perjorative. Whaaaaaaat? That's projection on a grand scale right there. Another example would be the words "handicapable" and "differently-abled" which I really hope were never actually used because they drip patronization. The problem I have with this is twofold. First you're seeing that person as what they are instead of who they are, first and foremost that person is a easily offended minority in your mind. Second by avoiding potential offensiveness to the extreme that you're avoiding referring to the colour of their skin or mentioning wheelchairs you're implying there's something to be offended by. Personally I'd be very puzzled if a black person actually took offence at the phrase "black sheep." You're avoiding the word "black" because you think it is inherently offensive. Which is BS. Of course when I pointed this out in a test the lecturer called me racist so maybe this is just my privilege speaking.

And before someone calls me a hypocrite because this argument seems to be directly clashing with my previous one about colourblindness being bad - it's not. As I see it these two are poles on the same spectrum and poles are always (haha) death. If everyone could just fall somewhere in the middle where you don't deny the issue but also don't overcompensate so damn hard that you're still prejudiced as **** that'd be great, thanks.

[Plaintiff]

Silfren wrote...

In Exile wrote...

Boiny Bunny wrote...
The question is more one of why didn't Bioware make Thedas a more multicultural place to start with, than why don't they retcon a bunch of additional races in now?  Perhaps threads like these will encourage them to think more carefully about these issues when creating new IP (regardless of whether or not it is heavily inspired by actual history).

Bioware made a traditional fantasy game. And fantasy is weirdly racist in its underlying architecture, by our modern standards. You don't need to go much farther than this business with the fantasy races as an analogy for IRL racism... where the humans are all white and the "non-humans" are supposed to be the analogy for other racial, ethnic or religious groups. 

This is a very good point; I hadn't considered this angle, but it seems painfully obvious, yes.  White=human...PoC=...all those icky non-humans.

Made more problematic by the fact that the non-humans are also universally white, 99% of the time.

Fantasy might be a good medium for exploring social issues in abstract. The problem with exploring them in abstract is that the point far too often sails right over the heads of the audience.

It's a good thing, then, that I'm tired of non-human "races", and don't use them in my own fantasy writing.

[Boiny Bunny]

Silfren wrote...

In Exile wrote...

Boiny Bunny wrote...
The question is more one of why didn't Bioware make Thedas a more multicultural place to start with, than why don't they retcon a bunch of additional races in now?  Perhaps threads like these will encourage them to think more carefully about these issues when creating new IP (regardless of whether or not it is heavily inspired by actual history).

Bioware made a traditional fantasy game. And fantasy is weirdly racist in its underlying architecture, by our modern standards. You don't need to go much farther than this business with the fantasy races as an analogy for IRL racism... where the humans are all white and the "non-humans" are supposed to be the analogy for other racial, ethnic or religious groups. 

This is a very good point; I hadn't considered this angle, but it seems painfully obvious, yes.  White=human...PoC=...all those icky non-humans.

Indeed - many 'darker' fantasy settings (regardless of whether or not there is any racial diversity within the human population) make large amounts of racial social commentary through the different species.  In a way, I guess they do this to avoid the potential controversy of showing inter-racial discrimination (which I imagine would not go down well).  This is particularly obvious and explored in the Witcher, though also in DA (elves in particular are treated as sub-citizens, and/or regarded as good slave material).

[AshenShug4r]

This thread is filled with people who take themselves way too seriously. I recommend psychedelic drugs and yoga.

[Silfren]

Boiny Bunny wrote...

Silfren wrote...

I'm going to expand my previous post...

Boiny Bunny wrote...

Bioware games are not actually literal platforms for racial/gender/anything else equality (nor are any video games). The under-representation of African/Asian people in popular media, be it television, movies, video games, etc. is a political and social issue. It's the prerogative of the writers to decide whether or not they want to engage in some form of social commentary through the world that they craft - but they are under no obligation to attempt to include every racial type that there is, simply on the basis that they exist, if it will interfere with the integrity of their world.

Not gonna lie, my previous response is, as far as I'm concerned, exactly the kind of reply this deserves, but I will go ahead and elaborate.

All forms of social media are platforms for equality, because they both inform and are informed by the larger culture. Any time a story, whatever medium is used to tell it, whitewashes a historical setting that in actuality was multicultural, a social statement is being made. Any time a story takes a fictional setting and makes it all white, or nearly all-white, with only a very small number of PoCs, a social statement is being made. That white people--and it IS white people--only ever make noise about a given medium using its story as social commentary when that medium portrays substantial numbers of PoCs, or LGBT persons, etc., says more about those people's limited perspective than anything else.

I think you're misinterpreting what I said.  In hindsight, it could have been worded better - but it also looks like you've missed some of my subsequent posts which elaborate a lot more.  I've said this somewhere above, and I'll happily repeat it - I agree with you completely that Bioware themselves were making a social statement when they decided to make the population of Thedas predominately Caucasian.

With respect to my comment about 'not actually literal platforms' - I was not referring in any way to Bioware making social commentary themselves.  Rather, I was referring to consumers of Bioware products using the products as platforms for equality themselves, by demanding changes to the games in order that they more closely align with their own desired social views.

Let me give you another example.  Suppose that there is a popular game series which has no LGBT characters in it.  At some point, a group of consumers of said game series decide that the lack of LGBT characters is reinforcing inequality for LGBT people, and thus begin requesting that LGBT characters be inserted into the game.  That is consumers of the product, attempting to use the product as a platform for equality.  It says nothing about why the game creators did not include LGBT characters in the first place.

Please, go back and re-read my post with that in mind.

Yes, the under-representation of people who aren't white is a political and social issue. But you are grossly mistaken if you are trying to claim that this means that entertainment media has no effect on the political or social climate. As I wrote elsewhere, media reinforces social perceptions as much as it is informed by them. Ever seen a t.v. show that is either set in New Orleans, or has one show tthat takes place in New Orleans, and yet there's exactly one, or even zero, Black characters, minor or major? I've seen a few. Can you guess why that is kind of a problem? A serious problem?

I haven't made such a claim, or anything even alluding to such, in any of my posts.  Once again, I agree with you completely - 'whitewashing' a real/historical setting is a large problem in popular media (I don't live in the US, so don't have any comments to make about TV shows covering New Orleans.  I live in Australia, and unfortunately, can report that most of our fictional television shows similarly whitewash out beyond token, and usually offensively stereotypical, appearances).

Yes, it's the prerogative of the writers whether they want to create a world that features a healthy mix of different ethnicities, such that white is not the default. But why in the world do you think that they are NOT making a social commentary by making white the default and NOT including different ethnicities. Seriously, think that through. How is one an example of social commentary, but not the other.

I don't - at all.  Refer to my first comment in this post, above.  Again, probably my poor wording more than anything.

Bioware is a Canadian company. Canada is no more 100% white than the United States is. Medieval Europe, also, was not 100% white (which I mention only because the most common defense for 99.98% white Thedas is because it's totally meant to be medieval-era Europe). So that the writers create a setting which IS nearly all white, with only token PoCs, DOES illustrate the writers' perception of society. Consciously or not, they ARE projecting a very specific message about their ideas of the socio-cultural landscape.

Yep, agreed once more.  Of course, it gets more complicated when the business people get involved.  Who knows if Bioware had originally planned a more multi-cultural setting for DA, but was overridden by marketing/etc.

First off, nobody is DEMANDING anything.  People have communicated to Bioware that they REALLY want to see more multi-ethnic groups portrayed, just as they've asked for more portrayal of LGBT options.  But none of us are demanding it.  If anything, the people who raise a stink AGAINST these things have a far, FAR more egregiously demanding attitude in their tirades.

Secondly, I'm not sure what your point is about consumers using Bioware games as a platform for equality.  PoCs want to see themselves reflected in games, the way that white people already are.  LGBT persons want to see themselves reflected in games, the way heteronormative people already are.  This is not using the games as a platform for equality, this is WANTING TO BE REPRESENTED THE SAME WAY THAT WHITE STRAIGHT PEOPLE ALREADY ARE.  Meaning, it's not intended as a push for civil rights, per se, it's wanting to be able to play a game and NOT be forced to play a white straight person as the default.  Equality would be the outcome...or a push toward that outcome, but at it's most basic, it's just wanting to have one opportunity to NOT have to choke on the product of white privilege.

Modifié par Silfren, 16 septembre 2013 - 06:08 .