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Inquisition: Will There Be Any Dark Skinned Folk?


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#201
Allan Schumacher

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You know, I really think I ought to be honest here.

I don't think those characters would look as nice with wiry hair. And I would thus probably frown on BioWare making them with it.


It's fine to think that way. I have my preferences on what I consider more attractive as well. Just so long as you're respectful to those that may value different things as well.


I'll grant that there's a fine line between offering adivce and making demands. Obviously if the person didn't really have a problem with it, they wouldn't bring it up to begin with.


I think an important thing here is how one presents a request (probably a more generally correct word than demand) is still something to factor in.

The difference in my two ways of saying it is in many ways simply a difference in communicating it in a way that the challenged person is in a greater psychological state to be receptive and open to the criticism.

#202
David7204

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Doesn't it? If someone said 'I think black people are ugly because they're black,' wouldn't that be taken as racist?

I mean, the logical conclusion of that would be the exclusion of such people, wouldn't it?

And aren't I pretty much saying that? Wiry hair is just as associated with black people as dark skin.

Modifié par David7204, 16 septembre 2013 - 07:53 .


#203
Boiny Bunny

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Plaintiff wrote...

Boiny Bunny wrote...
My point is that you are taking a 'work of art' (or whatever words you might use to describe a game) that somebody else has created, and requesting for them to change it in a way that may not fit with their vision, because it doesn't fit into your personal view of what the fictional world should be comprised of (which is informed by the under-representation of other races in popular media).  That is, in my mind at least, using the game, from the consumer's point of view, as a platform for racial equality.  You've said it yourself here - if many more games had multi-cultural casts, it would send a good message to consumers of those products about racial equality.


I'm not seeing the problem here. Art isn't sacred, it exists for the sake of public consumption. It is a commercial industry. Artists want to make money, make no mistake about that. In fact, much of history's most famous art pieces were produced on commission. Van Gogh's story may be tragic and romantic, but nobody actually wants to die in penury.

If an artist's "vision" doesn't gel with what the consumer actually wants, then a smart artist will adapt to fit, because they want to make money, so they can keep doing what they love instead of flipping burgers. When consumers offer criticism and make requests, they're actually helping the artist (even if that's not their intent). Of course the artist is free to pick and choose from the criticism offered to them. The audience criticising them may not be the audience they want to target at all.

Bioware (at least the division in charge of Dragon Age), has expressed an interest in being socially progressive. They've expressed an interest in broadening their audience and making their games more welcoming to minorities (the GLBT community in particular). If they were one of the many development studios that show no interest in being socially progressive whatsoever, people probably wouldn't bother trying to offer constructive criticism about the areas (like racial depiction) in which they fall short. I know I certainly wouldn't.


Broadly, I agree with what you're saying.  Bioware is looking to make a profit, and if there is a reasonable share of its consumer base indicating that they will not purchase the product unless specific issues are addressed (in this case, the lack of racial representation), they will need to make changes to accommodate those views.

But art is (well, from my perspective) also about creating something that resonates with you (as the artist), and that you enjoy creating.  If the painting market had fallen through the floor in favour of stone sculptures in the time of (say) Monet, I doubt that he would have made the move.  I guess there's a fine balance to be had between finding a crowd who appreciate your unique vision, and adapting it as the crowd grows and different tastes enter the mix.

Bioware is definitely a progressive company, and has not previously backed down on its decisions to do things like include LGBT relationships, even in the face of negative press.  That said, I have no idea what Bioware were thinking when the made the entire cast of DA Caucasian.  Was it deliberate - and if so, on the writers behalf, the model creators, or marketing?  Perhaps it was an accident (nobody really thought about it?)

Whatever the reason, it is perfectly reasonable for a consumer to let Bioware know that they don't feel that they are being catered for (not enough options in the character creator for example - which seemed to be the original point of this thread).  From my perspective though, being more aggressive, and 'demanding' (let's not take that word too seriously though, since some people are quite clearly being very level-headed about their requests) changes be made, for no obvious in-game benefit, but rather to help support what is essentially a political/social cause (the under-representation of non-Caucasians in media), is over-stepping a reasonable consumer-company boundary, in my opinion.

As an alternative example, I'll come back to Doctor Who once more.  There is absolutely no (current) in-universe/plot reason for the Doctor to become a female.  Making the Doctor a female would not be expected to improve the quality of the show (or lower it) in absolute terms.  But many vocal fans and non-fans alike, are in the process of demanding it happen for the sake of gender equality and sending a good message to society.  The request is driven by a political/social agenda, and gives little to no consideration to the actual impact on the show's quality (which may be entirely negligible), nor its ratings.  As the current lead writer is always saying, it must be story driven (with regard to most fan requests/demands about certain characters returning, etc.).  If there is a good story reason for a change to happen, that change will happen.  Changing something to appease an external political/social lobby group which may or may not have a negative impact on the quality of the story is not something that I agree with personally - which is essentially my main point and reason for entering this thread.

If Bioware can come up with a non-lore breaking reason for Asian or African inspired NPCs to exist in the world of Thedas, despite them never having been mentioned or seen thus far, and there is a decent story reason for introducing them, then I'm completely behind them on doing it.

#204
Allan Schumacher

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Doesn't it? If someone said 'I think black people are ugly because they're black,' wouldn't that be taken as racist?

I mean, the logical conclusion of that would be the exclusion of such people, wouldn't it?

And aren't I pretty much saying that? Wiry hair is just as associated with black people as dark skin.


It would be taken as racist by some, though I think the idea that it may not actually be racist would be a valid interpretation.

It comes down to effective and courteous communication, however. It's blunt, and blunt enough that it can be interpreted as hostile. Rephrasing and saying "I do not find black people attractive" would convey the same message but perhaps come across in a way that is less adversarial.

Discussing personal preferences of physical attraction may always flirt that line and be prone to being interpreted as hateful speech, but I would not consider your statement to be equivalent of say "I do not like black people because they are black."


Although this is perhaps veering too much into a topic that is not related to DAI (of which I myself have contributed to), so reigning it in back to DAI would probably be preferable.

Modifié par Allan Schumacher, 16 septembre 2013 - 08:02 .


#205
Plaintiff

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David7204 wrote...
Doesn't it? If someone said 'I think black people are ugly because they're black,' wouldn't that be taken as racist?

I mean, the logical conclusion of that would be the exclusion of such people, wouldn't it?

Only if being homosexual makes me sexist.

Western culture/media does favour white people over ethnic minorities, and that has an effect on what individuals perceive as 'beautiful', but what you personally find attractive is entirely your own business.

You are not obliged to find anyone attractive, nor are you obligated to explain yourself to people you turn down. Even if your reasons were hypothetically grounded in racism, your body is your private property and you can 'exclude' anyone you want.

Modifié par Plaintiff, 16 septembre 2013 - 08:03 .


#206
David7204

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That's a good point. I like your analogy.

You sir have convinced me in an internet debate.

Modifié par David7204, 16 septembre 2013 - 08:02 .


#207
Plaintiff

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Alright, Plaintiff saves the day again.

Anyway, Dragon Age: Inquisition. Should be awesome.

#208
Maria Caliban

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Western society posits European features as more attractive than those associated with African ancestry. The white doll, black doll test shows us that even at a young age, children consider whites prettier.

No, it's not surprising that you don't find wiry hair attractive. Yes, it's probably racist, but there's no way to be sure and I'm not sure it's something you could change if you wanted to.

Plaintiff wrote...

Only if being homosexual makes me sexist.

They're really not equivalent.

Modifié par Maria Caliban, 16 septembre 2013 - 08:10 .


#209
Allan Schumacher

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Maria does make a good point that what is considered attractive IS affected by social influences, so any latent racism (intentional or otherwise) that exists there will be propagated.

But yes, diversity in DAI. Interesting? Hmmm... quite.

#210
Plaintiff

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Bringing it back to Dragon Age: I hope the Frostbite engine is able to deliver on a wider range of skin types, hairs and other facial features, allowing for more diversity in the NPCs and also in the Character Creator.

#211
Cainhurst Crow

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Does tanned or brown skin count as dark skin? Lighter than black, but not white either, the middle ground guys.

Modifié par Darth Brotarian, 16 septembre 2013 - 08:19 .


#212
Star fury

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Having races except white should be on the 100th place in a priority list of Bioware.

#213
Plaintiff

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Star fury wrote...

Having races except white should be on the 100th place in a priority list of Bioware.

What's number one, then?

#214
Cainhurst Crow

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Probably is. I would think making npc's react properly to what race you pick, as in not having a dwarf called a knife ear or humans saying how it's good to see another human face to a big qunari with huge horns, would be more important. Or making sure you don't sink below the map when you step on the wrong stone or enemies don't suddenly switch skins would be the more major issue.

Modifié par Darth Brotarian, 16 septembre 2013 - 08:30 .


#215
David7204

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Functional gameplay is probably the #1 priority for any game.

#216
Guest_simfamUP_*

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I understood Ferelden's 'lack of colour' because of its (relative) poverty and current predicament which would turn away merchants in a second.

In Kirkwall, I didn't. But I enjoyed Isabella's presence, I *loved* her skin colour, very Latina. I think it was mentioned, however, that blacks were avoided due to the engine's inability to render believable black skin. Basically, they would look ridiculous. I question this because (as I said) I found Isabella's skin to be just right.

Still, the problem isn't so bad for me, but I do enjoy diversity. Where I'm from, it's basically a melting pot of cultures and since it's so small, you're guaranteed to pass by a Muslim, Jew, Pakistani and a Catholic priest in a space of a few meters. Being prejudiced here is extremely stupid and archaic, anyone that is most likely hides it, but you can see their transparency.

Personally, I wouldn't think BioWare consciously excludes diversity of this scale. They are really figureheads of equality after all. I don't think any other company in the industry has done the same for equal sex rights and homosexuality. Rather, I see it as an unconscious decision 80% of the time. I mean, they're energy is focused on the character, not what skin he/she has. I wouldn't want BioWare to worry about skin colour at all, and just create NPCs at their leisure.

Just imagine: "THE AMOUNT OF WHITES IN THIS GAME IS TOO DAMN HIGH!" or "No!!! The ratio of our white to black NPCs just came in. It's bloody 5:1! We're doomed!" It becomes ridiculously false and shallow if you're doing these things for the sake of good-terms with the imaginary god of Black/White equality.

#217
Maconbar

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Plaintiff wrote...

Star fury wrote...

Having races except white should be on the 100th place in a priority list of Bioware.

What's number one, then?


nugs?

#218
Plaintiff

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David7204 wrote...

Functional gameplay is probably the #1 priority for any game.

Okay, so what are the other 98?

#219
Cainhurst Crow

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Plaintiff wrote...

David7204 wrote...

Functional gameplay is probably the #1 priority for any game.

Okay, so what are the other 98?


Keeping visual glitches to a minimal is either number 14, or number 33. Hard to tell.

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#220
David7204

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Bewbs.

#221
Cainhurst Crow

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David7204 wrote...

Bewbs.


Yes.

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#222
Star fury

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Plaintiff wrote...

Star fury wrote...

Having races except white should be on the 100th place in a priority list of Bioware.

What's number one, then?


Romances! Lots and lots of romances. They could do with good story and decent combat too.

Modifié par Star fury, 16 septembre 2013 - 08:44 .


#223
Guest_StreetMagic_*

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Darth Brotarian wrote...

David7204 wrote...

Bewbs.


Yes.

*image*



That's some badass armor on the PC. I never played a female.. never saw it before.

#224
Star fury

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Darth Brotarian wrote...
Yes.

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Varric is one lucky boy.

#225
billy the squid

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Star fury wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...

Star fury wrote...

Having races except white should be on the 100th place in a priority list of Bioware.

What's number one, then?


Romances! Lots and lots of romances. They could do with good story and decent combat too.


What? Clearly you're out of your mind, pixel waifus and mailbox humping is what makes a game, no need for a story, and combat, we need a skip combat button anyway.

Modifié par billy the squid, 16 septembre 2013 - 08:49 .