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[leaguer of one]

esper wrote...

Bleachrude wrote...

This discussion raises another point...

Gamers complain that games talk down to them and that games assume people are idiots, but we clearly here have people that think the game lied to them yet others (myself included) think everything revealed was more than hinted at by the game itself...

So what is a developer to do?

(I am not personally shocked by this revaltion, but I still feel the need to comment on this).

DO NOT MAKE THESE BOOKS/COMICS.

Some information should be in the game or not be at all.

Sorry but I don't get why it's a problem if it's done in a comic. It's not an issue of quality it more of an issue of effert of the fan to read said comic.

[Ironic Discordia]

leaguer of one wrote...

esper wrote...

Bleachrude wrote...

This discussion raises another point...

Gamers complain that games talk down to them and that games assume people are idiots, but we clearly here have people that think the game lied to them yet others (myself included) think everything revealed was more than hinted at by the game itself...

So what is a developer to do?

(I am not personally shocked by this revaltion, but I still feel the need to comment on this).

DO NOT MAKE THESE BOOKS/COMICS.

Some information should be in the game or not be at all.

Sorry but I don't get why it's a problem if it's done in a comic. It's not an issue of quality it more of an issue of effert of the fan to read said comic.

To be fair, I think the argument here is that outside media shouldn't have an impact on the games, because not everyone reads the books or comics. The issue with anything set after the games being that events might not happen the same way within a specific player's reality because of choices they made. I can kind of understand that, but I personally disagree.

Largely, there's nowhere to fit some of the information except in ridiculously long codex entries. I'm interested in knowing more about the world, so I'm perfectly willing to accept the developers trying to earn more money by publishing books and comics.

[wcholcombe]

Good grief people, she is a pirate living in a middle/dark ages world with magic. Money is what motivates her. I like her character, but I like her because she is dark. She is realistic. Seriously a female pirate captain at that time? This isn't the dread pirate roberts will talking about. There are few if any lines that Isabella won't cross. Does she regret crossing them? Sure. Like most people does it eventually reach a point where she can't do it anymore? Possibly. Heck, the man who wrote the song "Amazing Grace" was a captain on a Slave ship for most of his life and so regretted what he had done he became a preacher who couldn't stand to be in the dark.

[crimzontearz]

leaguer of one wrote...

crimzontearz wrote...

leaguer of one wrote...

crimzontearz wrote...

Commander Kurt wrote...

I understand that her character was obviously viewed differently in the game by different people, and perhaps this is to be expected..? But can we at least agree that since so many people saw this in the game it wasn't really bad writing? I mean, they have to place the bar somewhere and there are times when I don't get something as well. Doesn't make it bad writing.

Regarding this info being shared outside the games, it is quite likely that the dev's didn't see it as a huge revelation (many of the fans didn't either, mind you). And we can't really expect them to not share anything at all about the characters in the books/comics, so... Yeah.

I think it's unfortunate that some people feel that Isabella is now wildly different, I do. I get the frustration. It's just... These things happen. And I'm guessing that for every person who is bitterly disappointed, there is another who is excited that some of the characters can't be taken at face value. I enjoy Isabella because real life people are actually this complex. They sometimes hide things they aren't proud of, they save their own skin when push comes to shove.

Ironic Discordia wrote...

I have read the comics. Isabela does show that she's grown as a character, but she only admits to her past under direct interrogation and threat of being turned into a videthari-bas. She seemed perfectly in character to me.

Ah, there you go. Thanks for clearing it up for me.

bad writing? No, Bad storytelling? Yep

Seriously, I don't even think you would know bad story telling if it bit you. That's not bad story tell at all.

it is because it is
1 quite important
2 presented in another medium


when will you understand that writing and presentation of such writing are two separate things and their being "good" is not interdependent on each other?

"1 quite important"
It does not change anything about the character.This also is not bad story telling.

"2 presented in another medium"

This also does not make it bad story telling because it's not presented in a place you want it to be.

What you are not understanding is what media is used to present a story does not change the quality of the story tell. The difference between a game and the comic book is just how one interacts with it. That does not change the quality of the story.
You learning about the characters past does not change who the character is now. You may change in opinion of said character but the character will still act the same as they are now. If the character is regretfull of said action and vows not to do it again the being angry or not with said character about it changes nothing.

This is not bad story telling.

it does if it is fragmented between media hence why I am, for instance, against Halo's amazing stories being told nearly entirely in other media. you are still unable to differentiate between writing and storytelling (notice...story tellING) and I am not sure why

[wcholcombe]

To be fair, I think the argument here is that outside media shouldn't have an impact on the games, because not everyone reads the books or comics. The issue with anything set after the games being that events might not happen the same way within a specific player's reality because of choices they made.

I agree with you that this point is a ridiculous one to have.  If you choose not to read the comics/books/source book stuff, then you choose to limit your knowledge of the game world.

However, the writers are under no obligation to not include new material/information in these non game sources.

[leaguer of one]

Ironic Discordia wrote...

leaguer of one wrote...

esper wrote...

Bleachrude wrote...

This discussion raises another point...

Gamers complain that games talk down to them and that games assume people are idiots, but we clearly here have people that think the game lied to them yet others (myself included) think everything revealed was more than hinted at by the game itself...

So what is a developer to do?

(I am not personally shocked by this revaltion, but I still feel the need to comment on this).

DO NOT MAKE THESE BOOKS/COMICS.

Some information should be in the game or not be at all.

Sorry but I don't get why it's a problem if it's done in a comic. It's not an issue of quality it more of an issue of effert of the fan to read said comic.

To be fair, I think the argument here is that outside media shouldn't have an impact on the games, because not everyone reads the books or comics. The issue with anything set after the games being that events might not happen the same way within a specific player's reality because of choices they made. I can kind of understand that, but I personally disagree.

Largely, there's nowhere to fit some of the information except in ridiculously long codex entries. I'm interested in knowing more about the world, so I'm perfectly willing to accept the developers trying to earn more money by publishing books and comics.

BW already made a statement about that. The events in the comic change based on what you did in your playthough. Also, the details of Isabela's past don't effect the past or future games one way or another. The events of the comic does not ether. It was about finding king Maric. he was thought to be dead before the comic and now he really is dead.

[leaguer of one]

crimzontearz wrote...




it does if it is fragmented between media hence why I am, for instance, against Halo's amazing stories being told nearly entirely in other media. you are still unable to differentiate between writing and storytelling (notice...story tellING) and I am not sure why

That does not make it bad writing ehter. Getting new info on the story though a comic does not make it bad writing or story telling. Halo is a comletly different case being that none of the books story was relivent to the games and games a vastly limit story compearded to the books. It's not the same case with da with has up to 100 hours of story and games play each game.  Heck, the majority of da story is told in game while a raction is out of game.

Modifié par leaguer of one, 17 septembre 2013 - 06:28 .

[esper]

leaguer of one wrote...

esper wrote...

Bleachrude wrote...

This discussion raises another point...

Gamers complain that games talk down to them and that games assume people are idiots, but we clearly here have people that think the game lied to them yet others (myself included) think everything revealed was more than hinted at by the game itself...

So what is a developer to do?

(I am not personally shocked by this revaltion, but I still feel the need to comment on this).

DO NOT MAKE THESE BOOKS/COMICS.

Some information should be in the game or not be at all.

Sorry but I don't get why it's a problem if it's done in a comic. It's not an issue of quality it more of an issue of effert of the fan to read said comic.

I don't even have these things avaiable to me in my country. And I refuse to touch them even if I did because we have been told that these books/comics are:

Non-canon (yes I know they happen anyway, if they can, but not in the same way, and I am not going to make the excerise of how would this comic take place if AListair is dead for example).

We have been told they are not necessary to read.

Because of the two above limitation, everything the writer deems important about and event/character/you name it, needs to be in the game in some form or else it simply should not affect anything the player is asked to make choices about.

The second thing is Isabella in comic is not Isabella in game, she simply cannot be the same character because no matter how good a writer you have the writing style is differnet and you can only 'come close'.

There is a reason that adaptations are hellish to make.

[crimzontearz]

leaguer of one wrote...

crimzontearz wrote...




it does if it is fragmented between media hence why I am, for instance, against Halo's amazing stories being told nearly entirely in other media. you are still unable to differentiate between writing and storytelling (notice...story tellING) and I am not sure why

That does not make it bad writing ehter. Getting new info on the story though a comic does not make it bad writing or story telling. Halo is a comletly different case being that none of the books story was relivent to the games and games a vastly limit story compearded to the books. It's not the same case with da with has up to 100 hours of story and games play each game.  Heck, the majority of da story is told in game while a raction is out of game.

I never said bad writing just bad story telling

[esper]

wcholcombe wrote...

To be fair, I think the argument here is that outside media shouldn't have an impact on the games, because not everyone reads the books or comics. The issue with anything set after the games being that events might not happen the same way within a specific player's reality because of choices they made.

I agree with you that this point is a ridiculous one to have.  If you choose not to read the comics/books/source book stuff, then you choose to limit your knowledge of the game world.

However, the writers are under no obligation to not include new material/information in these non game sources.

As long as the offical stance is that 'the books/comics are not required' they actually are. They are of course entitled to change that stance, but they have not.

[AngryFrozenWater]

For me it is simple. I play games and I do not want buy any non-game merchandise to make me understand the game, because the game should be a self-contained entity, which is not dependent on outside information of other media. If the lack of information causes that the game becomes hard to understand then the game is badly designed. I bought the full game. Not half the information. The in-game information should be enough.

Modifié par AngryFrozenWater, 17 septembre 2013 - 06:43 .

[leaguer of one]

esper wrote...

wcholcombe wrote...

To be fair, I think the argument here is that outside media shouldn't have an impact on the games, because not everyone reads the books or comics. The issue with anything set after the games being that events might not happen the same way within a specific player's reality because of choices they made.

I agree with you that this point is a ridiculous one to have.  If you choose not to read the comics/books/source book stuff, then you choose to limit your knowledge of the game world.

However, the writers are under no obligation to not include new material/information in these non game sources.

As long as the offical stance is that 'the books/comics are not required' they actually are. They are of course entitled to change that stance, but they have not.

But there not. You not learning about Isabela's past is not going to effect future games. You have to understand that the veiw a person has when playing da is split. You both in a first person and third person veiw. The character you are playing as is the first person and yourself is the third. The fact that from game to game you change main characters means that what one character you played as learn the next will not know.  Your warden does not know about the idols in da2 and yoour Hawke will never know about the dar rutual and that warden is the corner stone for killing the arch demon because they tear it's soul apart in a suicide attack. Everytime you play a new character in a dragon age game they are ignorate of past event except from an outsides view which is limited vastly.
Information from other media and games  will not effect your charcter because they come in ignorante. It will only effect them once the info comes across them in game.

[leaguer of one]

AngryFrozenWater wrote...

For me it is simple. I play games and I do not want buy any non-game merchandise to make me understand the game, because the game should be a self-contained entity, which is not dependent on outside information of other media. If the lack of information causes that the game becomes hard to understand then the game is badly designed. I bought the full game. Not half the information. The in-game information should be enough.

But needed for you to understandthe story or game. You not learning about Isabela's past is not going to effect future games. You have to understand that the veiw a person has when playing da is split. You both in a first person and third person veiw. The character you are playing as is the first person and yourself is the third. The fact that from game to game you change main characters means that what one character you played as learn the next will not know.  Your warden does not know about the idols in da2 and yoour Hawke will never know about the dar rutual and that warden is the corner stone for killing the arch demon because they tear it's soul apart in a suicide attack. Everytime you play a new character in a dragon age game they are ignorate of past event except from an outsides view which is limited vastly.
Information from other media and games  will not effect your charcter because they come in ignorante. It will only effect them once the info comes across them in game.

[Ironic Discordia]

esper wrote...

leaguer of one wrote...

esper wrote...

Bleachrude wrote...

This discussion raises another point...

Gamers complain that games talk down to them and that games assume people are idiots, but we clearly here have people that think the game lied to them yet others (myself included) think everything revealed was more than hinted at by the game itself...

So what is a developer to do?

(I am not personally shocked by this revaltion, but I still feel the need to comment on this).

DO NOT MAKE THESE BOOKS/COMICS.

Some information should be in the game or not be at all.

Sorry but I don't get why it's a problem if it's done in a comic. It's not an issue of quality it more of an issue of effert of the fan to read said comic.

I don't even have these things avaiable to me in my country. And I refuse to touch them even if I did because we have been told that these books/comics are:

Non-canon (yes I know they happen anyway, if they can, but not in the same way, and I am not going to make the excerise of how would this comic take place if AListair is dead for example).

We have been told they are not necessary to read.

Because of the two above limitation, everything the writer deems important about and event/character/you name it, needs to be in the game in some form or else it simply should not affect anything the player is asked to make choices about.

The second thing is Isabella in comic is not Isabella in game, she simply cannot be the same character because no matter how good a writer you have the writing style is differnet and you can only 'come close'.

There is a reason that adaptations are hellish to make.

dgaider.tumblr.com/post/60455326879/valerie1972-myrandacousland

According to the lead writer of the series, they are canon. The information presented is factual within the game world, even if the event don't play out the same way. (Much like the Dark Ritual. That's a factual thing that happens in game but will not play out in every playthrough, because it didn't happen in every playthrough.) They aren't required reading, because the creative team can't assume
anyone has read them. Any information they want to bring out of the
novels, comics, or World of Thedas book will have to be reintroduced in
game, but that doesn't change the fact that the information in the
comics is factual within the game world.

That is Isabela in the comic, whether people like that or not. The comics were written by the lead writer of the Dragon Age series, who probably consulted with Isabela's writer but is still the lead writer.

[leaguer of one]

Ironic Discordia wrote...

esper wrote...

leaguer of one wrote...

esper wrote...

Bleachrude wrote...

This discussion raises another point...

Gamers complain that games talk down to them and that games assume people are idiots, but we clearly here have people that think the game lied to them yet others (myself included) think everything revealed was more than hinted at by the game itself...

So what is a developer to do?

(I am not personally shocked by this revaltion, but I still feel the need to comment on this).

DO NOT MAKE THESE BOOKS/COMICS.

Some information should be in the game or not be at all.

Sorry but I don't get why it's a problem if it's done in a comic. It's not an issue of quality it more of an issue of effert of the fan to read said comic.

I don't even have these things avaiable to me in my country. And I refuse to touch them even if I did because we have been told that these books/comics are:

Non-canon (yes I know they happen anyway, if they can, but not in the same way, and I am not going to make the excerise of how would this comic take place if AListair is dead for example).

We have been told they are not necessary to read.

Because of the two above limitation, everything the writer deems important about and event/character/you name it, needs to be in the game in some form or else it simply should not affect anything the player is asked to make choices about.

The second thing is Isabella in comic is not Isabella in game, she simply cannot be the same character because no matter how good a writer you have the writing style is differnet and you can only 'come close'.

There is a reason that adaptations are hellish to make.

dgaider.tumblr.com/post/60455326879/valerie1972-myrandacousland

According to the lead writer of the series, they are canon. The information presented is factual within the game world, even if the event don't play out the same way. (Much like the Dark Ritual. That's a factual thing that happens in game but will not play out in every playthrough, because it didn't happen in every playthrough.) They aren't required reading, because the creative team can't assume
anyone has read them. Any information they want to bring out of the
novels, comics, or World of Thedas book will have to be reintroduced in
game, but that doesn't change the fact that the information in the
comics is factual within the game world.

That is Isabela in the comic, whether people like that or not. The comics were written by the lead writer of the Dragon Age series, who probably consulted with Isabela's writer but is still the lead writer.

Read it again.
"You say “canon” and some people take it as “this will override all the decisions I’ve made in my game” — which is not true. It’d be nice if the comics and novels could adapt to fit the choices the reader made in their game, but they can’t. Because they’re not videogames. This means that one version of the possible timelines must be selected for the given piece of fiction, one which may not match your own.If it doesn’t match your own, does that mean it didn’t happen in “your” world? Possibly. The events of the comics couldn’t have happened, for instance, if Alistair died during the events of DAO. Or they may have happened slightly differently, if Alistair wasn’t King of Ferelden."
Yes it is there stories but they do not undo what you did in your game. It matter not if it's factual or not.  Reguardless, knowing about the info or not does not effect the game.

[esper]

leaguer of one wrote...

esper wrote...

wcholcombe wrote...

To be fair, I think the argument here is that outside media shouldn't have an impact on the games, because not everyone reads the books or comics. The issue with anything set after the games being that events might not happen the same way within a specific player's reality because of choices they made.

I agree with you that this point is a ridiculous one to have.  If you choose not to read the comics/books/source book stuff, then you choose to limit your knowledge of the game world.

However, the writers are under no obligation to not include new material/information in these non game sources.

As long as the offical stance is that 'the books/comics are not required' they actually are. They are of course entitled to change that stance, but they have not.

But there not. You not learning about Isabela's past is not going to effect future games. You have to understand that the veiw a person has when playing da is split. You both in a first person and third person veiw. The character you are playing as is the first person and yourself is the third. The fact that from game to game you change main characters means that what one character you played as learn the next will not know.  Your warden does not know about the idols in da2 and yoour Hawke will never know about the dar rutual and that warden is the corner stone for killing the arch demon because they tear it's soul apart in a suicide attack. Everytime you play a new character in a dragon age game they are ignorate of past event except from an outsides view which is limited vastly.
Information from other media and games  will not effect your charcter because they come in ignorante. It will only effect them once the info comes across them in game.

Learning Isabella's past will affect future games, if a future PC is required to make a choice based on her past. I personally doubt it comes up, but I can understand people who like Isabella's character to be upset.

In a book, sometimes you know more than the main character. It is fine because you can't influence a book an it allows a reader to see the story in a different perspective than the characters and enyou.

In a game you can influence the outcome, espically in an RPG and while meta-knowlegde is not something your character has control over they player does and that can directly affect in which direction they want to push the characters in game. If Isabella's past and stance on slavers is important towards Hawke (it is) then that knowlegde should gleanable from game. Don't get me wrong, Isabella is under no demand to tell the truth and tell everything, the game, however, should make the information avaible to the player in game so that they player can make informed choice. Or else the player should simply not make any choices about anything related to Isabella's past.

[AngryFrozenWater]

@leaguer of one: What is that supposed to mean? You mean I have to buy the merchandise because DA2 also relies on the story of DA:O and that DA:I relies on both? As in you have to buy other products to enjoy the latest? It's obvious to me that previous titles are the building blocks for the next titles. I bought them. And maybe I'll buy DA:I, because it finally includes bow strings (pun intended). I just do not want to buy anything outside of these games. I am gamer, not a stockholder, not a milk cow, and not a comic reader.

[esper]

leaguer of one wrote...

Ironic Discordia wrote...

esper wrote...

leaguer of one wrote...

esper wrote...

Bleachrude wrote...

This discussion raises another point...

Gamers complain that games talk down to them and that games assume people are idiots, but we clearly here have people that think the game lied to them yet others (myself included) think everything revealed was more than hinted at by the game itself...

So what is a developer to do?

(I am not personally shocked by this revaltion, but I still feel the need to comment on this).

DO NOT MAKE THESE BOOKS/COMICS.

Some information should be in the game or not be at all.

Sorry but I don't get why it's a problem if it's done in a comic. It's not an issue of quality it more of an issue of effert of the fan to read said comic.

I don't even have these things avaiable to me in my country. And I refuse to touch them even if I did because we have been told that these books/comics are:

Non-canon (yes I know they happen anyway, if they can, but not in the same way, and I am not going to make the excerise of how would this comic take place if AListair is dead for example).

We have been told they are not necessary to read.

Because of the two above limitation, everything the writer deems important about and event/character/you name it, needs to be in the game in some form or else it simply should not affect anything the player is asked to make choices about.

The second thing is Isabella in comic is not Isabella in game, she simply cannot be the same character because no matter how good a writer you have the writing style is differnet and you can only 'come close'.

There is a reason that adaptations are hellish to make.

dgaider.tumblr.com/post/60455326879/valerie1972-myrandacousland

According to the lead writer of the series, they are canon. The information presented is factual within the game world, even if the event don't play out the same way. (Much like the Dark Ritual. That's a factual thing that happens in game but will not play out in every playthrough, because it didn't happen in every playthrough.) They aren't required reading, because the creative team can't assume
anyone has read them. Any information they want to bring out of the
novels, comics, or World of Thedas book will have to be reintroduced in
game, but that doesn't change the fact that the information in the
comics is factual within the game world.

That is Isabela in the comic, whether people like that or not. The comics were written by the lead writer of the Dragon Age series, who probably consulted with Isabela's writer but is still the lead writer.

Read it again.
"You say “canon” and some people take it as “this will override all the decisions I’ve made in my game” — which is not true. It’d be nice if the comics and novels could adapt to fit the choices the reader made in their game, but they can’t. Because they’re not videogames. This means that one version of the possible timelines must be selected for the given piece of fiction, one which may not match your own.If it doesn’t match your own, does that mean it didn’t happen in “your” world? Possibly. The events of the comics couldn’t have happened, for instance, if Alistair died during the events of DAO. Or they may have happened slightly differently, if Alistair wasn’t King of Ferelden."
Yes it is there stories but they do not undo what you did in your game. It matter not if it's factual or not.  Reguardless, knowing about the info or not does not effect the game.

I have already answered that in the bolded.


The comics are non-canon to the game, because they do not happen the same way in the game world unless the game world fullfill specific requirements.

Similair events happen, yes, but it is not the same. And I am not going to play the game of 'How does Alistair goes to find his father if he is dead' - that is bioware's job.

[leaguer of one]

esper wrote...

leaguer of one wrote...

esper wrote...

wcholcombe wrote...

To be fair, I think the argument here is that outside media shouldn't have an impact on the games, because not everyone reads the books or comics. The issue with anything set after the games being that events might not happen the same way within a specific player's reality because of choices they made.

I agree with you that this point is a ridiculous one to have.  If you choose not to read the comics/books/source book stuff, then you choose to limit your knowledge of the game world.

However, the writers are under no obligation to not include new material/information in these non game sources.

As long as the offical stance is that 'the books/comics are not required' they actually are. They are of course entitled to change that stance, but they have not.

But there not. You not learning about Isabela's past is not going to effect future games. You have to understand that the veiw a person has when playing da is split. You both in a first person and third person veiw. The character you are playing as is the first person and yourself is the third. The fact that from game to game you change main characters means that what one character you played as learn the next will not know.  Your warden does not know about the idols in da2 and yoour Hawke will never know about the dar rutual and that warden is the corner stone for killing the arch demon because they tear it's soul apart in a suicide attack. Everytime you play a new character in a dragon age game they are ignorate of past event except from an outsides view which is limited vastly.
Information from other media and games  will not effect your charcter because they come in ignorante. It will only effect them once the info comes across them in game.

Learning Isabella's past will affect future games, if a future PC is required to make a choice based on her past. I personally doubt it comes up, but I can understand people who like Isabella's character to be upset.

In a book, sometimes you know more than the main character. It is fine because you can't influence a book an it allows a reader to see the story in a different perspective than the characters and enyou.

In a game you can influence the outcome, espically in an RPG and while meta-knowlegde is not something your character has control over they player does and that can directly affect in which direction they want to push the characters in game. If Isabella's past and stance on slavers is important towards Hawke (it is) then that knowlegde should gleanable from game. Don't get me wrong, Isabella is under no demand to tell the truth and tell everything, the game, however, should make the information avaible to the player in game so that they player can make informed choice. Or else the player should simply not make any choices about anything related to Isabella's past.

Do you understand that all pc introduced into the games come in ignorant of past events? So what if you know about what Isabela did, your furture PC will never know unless it's told to them like your Hawke does not know about what your warden did. Even if you know what Isabela did your pc can't know about it because theyare not psychic.
You're not getting this concept. Media has no effect on the quality, The role is the same. Your future pc will not know about what Isabela did no matter if you know about it unless they are told about it in game. That why it will not effect furture games if you know about it or not.

[leaguer of one]

AngryFrozenWater wrote...

@leaguer of one: What is that supposed to mean? You mean I have to buy the merchandise because DA2 also relies on the story of DA:O and that DA:I relies on both? As in you have to buy other products to enjoy the latest? It's obvious to me that previous titles are the building blocks for the next titles. I bought them. And maybe I'll buy DA:I, because it finally includes bow strings (pun intended). I just do not want to buy anything outside of these games. I am gamer, not a stockholder, not a milk cow, and not a comic reader.

No, what I mean is the what ever story is in the comic will be retold to the player in game reguardless. The difference is with the comic you witness it as a 3rd person reading a story. In game it's just told to you  by a 3rd person.
You don't need to buy the comic to know what happens, it will be retold to you later.

Modifié par leaguer of one, 17 septembre 2013 - 07:06 .

[Taleroth]

leaguer of one wrote...

No, what I mean is the what ever story is in the comic will be retold to the player in game reguardless. 

Doubtful. Was the Architect's story from the Calling told to the player? No. Was Loghain's? No.

You won't need to know what happened, more likely than not.

Modifié par Taleroth, 17 septembre 2013 - 07:14 .

[esper]

leaguer of one wrote...

esper wrote...

leaguer of one wrote...

esper wrote...

wcholcombe wrote...

To be fair, I think the argument here is that outside media shouldn't have an impact on the games, because not everyone reads the books or comics. The issue with anything set after the games being that events might not happen the same way within a specific player's reality because of choices they made.

I agree with you that this point is a ridiculous one to have.  If you choose not to read the comics/books/source book stuff, then you choose to limit your knowledge of the game world.

However, the writers are under no obligation to not include new material/information in these non game sources.

As long as the offical stance is that 'the books/comics are not required' they actually are. They are of course entitled to change that stance, but they have not.

But there not. You not learning about Isabela's past is not going to effect future games. You have to understand that the veiw a person has when playing da is split. You both in a first person and third person veiw. The character you are playing as is the first person and yourself is the third. The fact that from game to game you change main characters means that what one character you played as learn the next will not know.  Your warden does not know about the idols in da2 and yoour Hawke will never know about the dar rutual and that warden is the corner stone for killing the arch demon because they tear it's soul apart in a suicide attack. Everytime you play a new character in a dragon age game they are ignorate of past event except from an outsides view which is limited vastly.
Information from other media and games  will not effect your charcter because they come in ignorante. It will only effect them once the info comes across them in game.

Learning Isabella's past will affect future games, if a future PC is required to make a choice based on her past. I personally doubt it comes up, but I can understand people who like Isabella's character to be upset.

In a book, sometimes you know more than the main character. It is fine because you can't influence a book an it allows a reader to see the story in a different perspective than the characters and enyou.

In a game you can influence the outcome, espically in an RPG and while meta-knowlegde is not something your character has control over they player does and that can directly affect in which direction they want to push the characters in game. If Isabella's past and stance on slavers is important towards Hawke (it is) then that knowlegde should gleanable from game. Don't get me wrong, Isabella is under no demand to tell the truth and tell everything, the game, however, should make the information avaible to the player in game so that they player can make informed choice. Or else the player should simply not make any choices about anything related to Isabella's past.

Do you understand that all pc introduced into the games come in ignorant of past events? So what if you know about what Isabela did, your furture PC will never know unless it's told to them like your Hawke does not know about what your warden did. Even if you know what Isabela did your pc can't know about it because theyare not psychic.
You're not getting this concept. Media has no effect on the quality, The role is the same. Your future pc will not know about what Isabela did no matter if you know about it unless they are told about it in game. That why it will not effect furture games if you know about it or not.

Yes, I also understand that it is a game and that not everyone is hard core roleplayers. Some people play self insert, some like to manipulate with their meta knowlegde. RPG games are a genre that support that and as long as each story is self contained every necessary and even important piece of information must somehow be avaiable to players playing the story. We are not talking about the characters in world knowlegde, we are talking about the players enjoyment of the game. If the story is lacking because of lack of information that the player simply don't have, it is not good story telling.

And it is you that is not getting the concept. Media has everything to do with quality. The strengh of one media is not the strenght of another and you have to adapt everything including the characters to the new media. That is why there exist only 1 good adaptation for every 30 out there.

[esper]

Taleroth wrote...

leaguer of one wrote...

No, what I mean is the what ever story is in the comic will be retold to the player in game reguardless. 

Doubtful. Was the Architect's story from the Calling told to the player? No. Was Loghain's? No.

You won't need to know what happened, more likely than not.

Yes, as player we do. In awakening with the way they talked about the Architect I always as a player had a feeling, I should see the architect as more vile than I did. The problem was I couldn't as I had not read the book.

 Not to mention that dwarf he ran around wiht. I was incapable of truely understanding her character.

Modifié par esper, 17 septembre 2013 - 07:20 .

[leaguer of one]

Taleroth wrote...

leaguer of one wrote...

No, what I mean is the what ever story is in the comic will be retold to the player in game reguardless. 

Doubtful. Was the Architect's story from the Calling told to the player? No. Was Loghain's? No.

You won't need to know what happened, more likely than not.

Not 100%. But that is  issue of a 3rd person retelling a story. They have the power to reshape the story how they like. You still have to understand the the character is ignorate to past events reguardless if the player reads the books or not. And Loghin's past was revieled more if you make him a greay warden.

The point still stands.

[leaguer of one]

esper wrote...

leaguer of one wrote...

esper wrote...

leaguer of one wrote...

esper wrote...

wcholcombe wrote...

To be fair, I think the argument here is that outside media shouldn't have an impact on the games, because not everyone reads the books or comics. The issue with anything set after the games being that events might not happen the same way within a specific player's reality because of choices they made.

I agree with you that this point is a ridiculous one to have.  If you choose not to read the comics/books/source book stuff, then you choose to limit your knowledge of the game world.

However, the writers are under no obligation to not include new material/information in these non game sources.

As long as the offical stance is that 'the books/comics are not required' they actually are. They are of course entitled to change that stance, but they have not.

But there not. You not learning about Isabela's past is not going to effect future games. You have to understand that the veiw a person has when playing da is split. You both in a first person and third person veiw. The character you are playing as is the first person and yourself is the third. The fact that from game to game you change main characters means that what one character you played as learn the next will not know.  Your warden does not know about the idols in da2 and yoour Hawke will never know about the dar rutual and that warden is the corner stone for killing the arch demon because they tear it's soul apart in a suicide attack. Everytime you play a new character in a dragon age game they are ignorate of past event except from an outsides view which is limited vastly.
Information from other media and games  will not effect your charcter because they come in ignorante. It will only effect them once the info comes across them in game.

Learning Isabella's past will affect future games, if a future PC is required to make a choice based on her past. I personally doubt it comes up, but I can understand people who like Isabella's character to be upset.

In a book, sometimes you know more than the main character. It is fine because you can't influence a book an it allows a reader to see the story in a different perspective than the characters and enyou.

In a game you can influence the outcome, espically in an RPG and while meta-knowlegde is not something your character has control over they player does and that can directly affect in which direction they want to push the characters in game. If Isabella's past and stance on slavers is important towards Hawke (it is) then that knowlegde should gleanable from game. Don't get me wrong, Isabella is under no demand to tell the truth and tell everything, the game, however, should make the information avaible to the player in game so that they player can make informed choice. Or else the player should simply not make any choices about anything related to Isabella's past.

Do you understand that all pc introduced into the games come in ignorant of past events? So what if you know about what Isabela did, your furture PC will never know unless it's told to them like your Hawke does not know about what your warden did. Even if you know what Isabela did your pc can't know about it because theyare not psychic.
You're not getting this concept. Media has no effect on the quality, The role is the same. Your future pc will not know about what Isabela did no matter if you know about it unless they are told about it in game. That why it will not effect furture games if you know about it or not.

Yes, I also understand that it is a game and that not everyone is hard core roleplayers. Some people play self insert, some like to manipulate with their meta knowlegde. RPG games are a genre that support that and as long as each story is self contained every necessary and even important piece of information must somehow be avaiable to players playing the story. We are not talking about the characters in world knowlegde, we are talking about the players enjoyment of the game. If the story is lacking because of lack of information that the player simply don't have, it is not good story telling.

And it is you that is not getting the concept. Media has everything to do with quality. The strengh of one media is not the strenght of another and you have to adapt everything including the characters to the new media. That is why there exist only 1 good adaptation for every 30 out there.

As much as you like to play as a mete player, understand that the story and game is not built like that.  Nothing is stopping you from playing like that but the game makers and writers are not going to make the games story around your style of play.  That means your going to have issue with the way you play due to how the writers make there story.

And no media has nothing to do with quality. Think that is very ignorante. That would mean a person can call games trash because it's not a book or a play. It's meaning over media, not media over meaning. And being that story teling style did not change much from game to comic, it's clear the quality did not change. The only difference is that comic is not interactive. The differnce is just control and pacing.