401 réponses à ce sujet

[wcholcombe]

Its bonus info for the reader, it doesn't impact or affect the story in anyway. Isabella's past, or the architects, or Loghains, or Coles, or Fiona's past have no impact on your PC, because guess what they don't know that.

Unless the Inquisitor is told, they won't know that Wynne was possessed by a spirit of the fade, that Cole isn't what he appears to be, that Fiona knew Marric and fought against the Architect, or a million other things we know from the books, that aren't in the game because there is no reason for them to be in the game. Whether we know it from the books or the games, the inquisitor won't, this metagaming annoys me. If you want to do it fine, but don't get offended when your pro Mage Quinari Inquisitor isn't taken seriously.

Modifié par wcholcombe, 17 septembre 2013 - 07:30 .

[Ironic Discordia]

esper wrote...

leaguer of one wrote...

Ironic Discordia wrote...

esper wrote...

leaguer of one wrote...

esper wrote...

Bleachrude wrote...

This discussion raises another point...

Gamers complain that games talk down to them and that games assume people are idiots, but we clearly here have people that think the game lied to them yet others (myself included) think everything revealed was more than hinted at by the game itself...

So what is a developer to do?

(I am not personally shocked by this revaltion, but I still feel the need to comment on this).

DO NOT MAKE THESE BOOKS/COMICS.

Some information should be in the game or not be at all.

Sorry but I don't get why it's a problem if it's done in a comic. It's not an issue of quality it more of an issue of effert of the fan to read said comic.

I don't even have these things avaiable to me in my country. And I refuse to touch them even if I did because we have been told that these books/comics are:

Non-canon (yes I know they happen anyway, if they can, but not in the same way, and I am not going to make the excerise of how would this comic take place if AListair is dead for example).

We have been told they are not necessary to read.

Because of the two above limitation, everything the writer deems important about and event/character/you name it, needs to be in the game in some form or else it simply should not affect anything the player is asked to make choices about.

The second thing is Isabella in comic is not Isabella in game, she simply cannot be the same character because no matter how good a writer you have the writing style is differnet and you can only 'come close'.

There is a reason that adaptations are hellish to make.

dgaider.tumblr.com/post/60455326879/valerie1972-myrandacousland

According to the lead writer of the series, they are canon. The information presented is factual within the game world, even if the event don't play out the same way. (Much like the Dark Ritual. That's a factual thing that happens in game but will not play out in every playthrough, because it didn't happen in every playthrough.) They aren't required reading, because the creative team can't assume
anyone has read them. Any information they want to bring out of the
novels, comics, or World of Thedas book will have to be reintroduced in
game, but that doesn't change the fact that the information in the
comics is factual within the game world.

That is Isabela in the comic, whether people like that or not. The comics were written by the lead writer of the Dragon Age series, who probably consulted with Isabela's writer but is still the lead writer.

Read it again.
"You say “canon” and some people take it as “this will override all the decisions I’ve made in my game” — which is not true. It’d be nice if the comics and novels could adapt to fit the choices the reader made in their game, but they can’t. Because they’re not videogames. This means that one version of the possible timelines must be selected for the given piece of fiction, one which may not match your own.If it doesn’t match your own, does that mean it didn’t happen in “your” world? Possibly. The events of the comics couldn’t have happened, for instance, if Alistair died during the events of DAO. Or they may have happened slightly differently, if Alistair wasn’t King of Ferelden."
Yes it is there stories but they do not undo what you did in your game. It matter not if it's factual or not.  Reguardless, knowing about the info or not does not effect the game.

I have already answered that in the bolded.


The comics are non-canon to the game, because they do not happen the same way in the game world unless the game world fullfill specific requirements.

Similair events happen, yes, but it is not the same. And I am not going to play the game of 'How does Alistair goes to find his father if he is dead' - that is bioware's job.

"But is what’s presented in the comics and novels otherwise canonical?
Yes. This means that the characters and information presented is all
factual and true, and could conceivably play into future Dragon Age
titles if we wanted to— particularly the things that don’t
depend on your personal game’s timeline. That really is Bianca. That
really is Isabela’s backstory. Maevaris Tilani really does exist, and
Sten of DAO really is the new Arishok (presuming he’s alive).How can that be? Because it’s not fanfiction. It’s official, and I am
the Lead Writer of the Dragon Age franchise and have a great deal of
sway in determining its narrative direction (as well as the direction of
all its characters).Someone might not like what I’ve done with the comics or novels (and
I’m sorry if that’s the case— I try my best, as does all of my team… who
I always consult, incidentally, when their pieces of the lore intersect
with what I’m working on), but there’s no reason to disregard the
legitimacy of the works insofar as how they add to the existing canon
beyond being an a**hole about it.Which some people like to be, when they don’t like something. Me too, sometimes. In this case, however, it’s simply incorrect."

 

I think you're missing the point. All of the information presented in the comics and books is factual. Everything they present about Maric, the tease about Bianca, Isabela's backstory. That's what canon means here. At this point, I'm pretty sure we're arguing semantics.
Granted, the events that transpire may not happen in the same way. If Alistair's dead, he doesn't find his father. End of story (except for whatever awful things Aurelian Titus gets up to that may cause problems down the line). If Alistair's not king? Things might play out differently. In that sense, there's some leeway. The events themselves are subject to change, but all of the facts behind why those events transpire are still there. That's still Isabela's backstory. The fact that the comics' plots may play out differently or not at all based on the player's world state doesn't change the legimitacy of the other information.

[wcholcombe]

Oh, and while they say that there is no canon story line, I firmly believe that eventually they will have to canonize some events just to keep the story from being a giant tangled mess.

[Taleroth]

esper wrote...

Taleroth wrote...

leaguer of one wrote...

No, what I mean is the what ever story is in the comic will be retold to the player in game reguardless. 

Doubtful. Was the Architect's story from the Calling told to the player? No. Was Loghain's? No.

You won't need to know what happened, more likely than not.

Yes, as player we do. In awakening with the way they talked about the Architect I always as a player had a feeling, I should see the architect as more vile than I did. The problem was I couldn't as I had not read the book.

 Not to mention that dwarf he ran around wiht. I was incapable of truely understanding her character.

Why did you need to know that? You don't need the perspective of god to react to characters.

And Utha revealed enough information that fit within the framework of her role. It was clear she was a Grey Warden. And given the Architect's plans in Awakening, her role made sense.

I've never read the book either. If anything, I feel they would taint the perspective with information I have no reason to know.

[Ryzaki]

Eh? Utha always seemed just there to me. I had little clue why she was there. What warden would think intelligent darkspawn is a good idea baffles me. They're hard enough to deal with stupid.

[leaguer of one]

Ryzaki wrote...

Eh? Utha always seemed just there to me. I had little clue why she was there. What warden would think intelligent darkspawn is a good idea baffles me. They're hard enough to deal with stupid.

Because the smart ones can help stop the dumb ones.
Also, Architect tells you Utha was a warden

Modifié par leaguer of one, 17 septembre 2013 - 07:40 .

[esper]

leaguer of one wrote...

esper wrote...

leaguer of one wrote...

esper wrote...

leaguer of one wrote...

esper wrote...

wcholcombe wrote...

To be fair, I think the argument here is that outside media shouldn't have an impact on the games, because not everyone reads the books or comics. The issue with anything set after the games being that events might not happen the same way within a specific player's reality because of choices they made.

I agree with you that this point is a ridiculous one to have.  If you choose not to read the comics/books/source book stuff, then you choose to limit your knowledge of the game world.

However, the writers are under no obligation to not include new material/information in these non game sources.

As long as the offical stance is that 'the books/comics are not required' they actually are. They are of course entitled to change that stance, but they have not.

But there not. You not learning about Isabela's past is not going to effect future games. You have to understand that the veiw a person has when playing da is split. You both in a first person and third person veiw. The character you are playing as is the first person and yourself is the third. The fact that from game to game you change main characters means that what one character you played as learn the next will not know.  Your warden does not know about the idols in da2 and yoour Hawke will never know about the dar rutual and that warden is the corner stone for killing the arch demon because they tear it's soul apart in a suicide attack. Everytime you play a new character in a dragon age game they are ignorate of past event except from an outsides view which is limited vastly.
Information from other media and games  will not effect your charcter because they come in ignorante. It will only effect them once the info comes across them in game.

Learning Isabella's past will affect future games, if a future PC is required to make a choice based on her past. I personally doubt it comes up, but I can understand people who like Isabella's character to be upset.

In a book, sometimes you know more than the main character. It is fine because you can't influence a book an it allows a reader to see the story in a different perspective than the characters and enyou.

In a game you can influence the outcome, espically in an RPG and while meta-knowlegde is not something your character has control over they player does and that can directly affect in which direction they want to push the characters in game. If Isabella's past and stance on slavers is important towards Hawke (it is) then that knowlegde should gleanable from game. Don't get me wrong, Isabella is under no demand to tell the truth and tell everything, the game, however, should make the information avaible to the player in game so that they player can make informed choice. Or else the player should simply not make any choices about anything related to Isabella's past.

Do you understand that all pc introduced into the games come in ignorant of past events? So what if you know about what Isabela did, your furture PC will never know unless it's told to them like your Hawke does not know about what your warden did. Even if you know what Isabela did your pc can't know about it because theyare not psychic.
You're not getting this concept. Media has no effect on the quality, The role is the same. Your future pc will not know about what Isabela did no matter if you know about it unless they are told about it in game. That why it will not effect furture games if you know about it or not.

Yes, I also understand that it is a game and that not everyone is hard core roleplayers. Some people play self insert, some like to manipulate with their meta knowlegde. RPG games are a genre that support that and as long as each story is self contained every necessary and even important piece of information must somehow be avaiable to players playing the story. We are not talking about the characters in world knowlegde, we are talking about the players enjoyment of the game. If the story is lacking because of lack of information that the player simply don't have, it is not good story telling.

And it is you that is not getting the concept. Media has everything to do with quality. The strengh of one media is not the strenght of another and you have to adapt everything including the characters to the new media. That is why there exist only 1 good adaptation for every 30 out there.

As much as you like to play as a mete player, understand that the story and game is not built like that.  Nothing is stopping you from playing like that but the game makers and writers are not going to make the games story around your style of play.  That means your going to have issue with the way you play due to how the writers make there story.

And no media has nothing to do with quality. Think that is very ignorante. That would mean a person can call games trash because it's not a book or a play. It's meaning over media, not media over meaning. And being that story teling style did not change much from game to comic, it's clear the quality did not change. The only difference is that comic is not interactive. The differnce is just control and pacing.

You keep missing my point. It is not about what the character knows. It is about what the player knows. Player exist on a different level of... abstraction than the characters. That means they experience the story differently, They know more. They get involved differently. This has to do with players enjoyment of the game, not in character knowlegde. And if the extra materials is not required, then everything important from that material has to make it into the game. Else it affects the players ability to play the game in a enjoyable way.

Media has to do with quality. If you translate directly from one media to the next, the adaption will be of bad quality. It is not just control and pacing. It is everything, because nothing works in the same way. A comics visual does not move around, like dragon ages visual does, because they are standing still pictures. You do not write the character in the same way, it is not possible. Bad adaptation are the ones that think they can get away with only control and pacing when translating a game. You cannot.

How do you represent Isabella's tone of voice in a comic for example. With different fonts, types of writings, body gestures - This is important to think about.
What about her thoughts, should they be avaiable in the comics?
How about how she moves? How she fights?
All these things have to be adapted to get a character that comes 'close to' Isabella, but a 1:1 is impossible.

[Ryzaki]

leaguer of one wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

Eh? Utha always seemed just there to me. I had little clue why she was there. What warden would think intelligent darkspawn is a good idea baffles me. They're hard enough to deal with stupid.

Because the smart ones can help stop the dumb ones.
Also, Architect tells you Utha was a warden

The smart ones that still spread the blight? Yeah real helpful. How long before they realize they will only be accepted as long as it takes to kill the dumb ones? Not long I bet. Then you have 2 problems instead of one. GG.

Modifié par Ryzaki, 17 septembre 2013 - 07:45 .

[Taleroth]

Ryzaki wrote...

The smart ones that still spread the blight? Yeah real helpful. How long before they realize they will only be accepted as long as it takes to kill the dumb ones? Not long I bet. Then you have 2 problems instead of one. GG. 

Nobody said anything about "accepted." They could very well establish isolationist colonies as long as left alone. And nobody would care.

[esper]

Ryzaki wrote...

Eh? Utha always seemed just there to me. I had little clue why she was there. What warden would think intelligent darkspawn is a good idea baffles me. They're hard enough to deal with stupid.

A character that is 'only there' is rarely a good character. It was clear I should, think something about her... but she was a you said, just there.

Well, my Warden was sort of lazy and tired of saving people so she went with the easist solution for herself. But that is an in character reason. As a player I was basically head palming and saying 'I had to fight through #### blight because this idiot has no common sense. Are you kidding me?' A person who had read the whole, trying to get everyone infected with the taint story beforehand, would properly have a more nuanced look at the architect. Or at least have felt him a bigger threat. I don't know how he comes of in the book, but I imagine that is is more vile compared to the no common sense at all character of da:a.

[leaguer of one]

esper wrote...



You keep missing my point. It is not about what the character knows. It is about what the player knows. Player exist on a different level of... abstraction than the characters. That means they experience the story differently, They know more. They get involved differently. This has to do with players enjoyment of the game, not in character knowlegde. And if the extra materials is not required, then everything important from that material has to make it into the game. Else it affects the players ability to play the game in a enjoyable way.

Media has to do with quality. If you translate directly from one media to the next, the adaption will be of bad quality. It is not just control and pacing. It is everything, because nothing works in the same way. A comics visual does not move around, like dragon ages visual does, because they are standing still pictures. You do not write the character in the same way, it is not possible. Bad adaptation are the ones that think they can get away with only control and pacing when translating a game. You cannot.

How do you represent Isabella's tone of voice in a comic for example. With different fonts, types of writings, body gestures - This is important to think about.
What about her thoughts, should they be avaiable in the comics?
How about how she moves? How she fights?
All these things have to be adapted to get a character that comes 'close to' Isabella, but a 1:1 is impossible.

And what the player know does not matter. The story is not made or written to take in part with what the player knows. It's written and made in consideration that the pc is ignorante. You not knowing about past event is not going to change the game. The fact that new players can come in any game proves that point.

And no media had nothing to do with quality. How media is made is what effects quality. And yes it is just control and pacing. The only differnce is the view is not interaction with the event in the comic and can't effect them. The only difference with how character is written with a comic and a game is that in a game the character wait around for you to interact with them and you choosing the pace while in a comic they don't. You can easily write the character the same way. The differnece is pacing and control.

"How do you represent Isabella's tone of voice in a comic for example. With different fonts, types of writings, body gestures - This is important to think about."
Voice is not the only way to convye tone. It can be done with pure writing. Body lauguge can also be conveded with writing, even more so with an illustration. The fact that the production is differnet and how something is convey does not make one quality less or make it impossible for the say storytelling style to be used. The diffence in the end is still just pacing and control.

Media does not effect quality. It effect effort and production.

[leaguer of one]

Ryzaki wrote...

leaguer of one wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

Eh? Utha always seemed just there to me. I had little clue why she was there. What warden would think intelligent darkspawn is a good idea baffles me. They're hard enough to deal with stupid.

Because the smart ones can help stop the dumb ones.
Also, Architect tells you Utha was a warden

The smart ones that still spread the blight? Yeah real helpful. How long before they realize they will only be accepted as long as it takes to kill the dumb ones? Not long I bet. Then you have 2 problems instead of one. GG.

Or they can just live way from the other races and the other races can leave them alone. That's easy being that dark spawn can't stand daylight.

[Dutchess]

esper wrote...

If Isabella's past and stance on slavers is important towards Hawke (it is) then that knowlegde should gleanable from game. Don't get me wrong, Isabella is under no demand to tell the truth and tell everything, the game, however, should make the information avaible to the player in game so that they player can make informed choice. Or else the player should simply not make any choices about anything related to Isabella's past.

Agreed. The way Isabela develops over the course of DA2 makes you believe that she becomes more honest and in the end dares to open up to Hawke (mostly when Hawke is romanced). The game does not give any hint whatsoever that Isabela hides such a horrible secret. Yes, we get to learn that Isabela is selfish. But when someone is selfish you don't atuomatically assume that that person is willing to dump hundreds of bound, innocent people in the sea to drown to save their own hide. That is beyond selfish. As far as I'm concerned, that is pure evil. 
And yes, I know she is a pirate and therefore not an innocent sweetheart. But as others have said, the game really does its best to make her likeable and come across as the fun Jack Sparrow kind of pirate, not the monster that leaves slaves to drown. Yes, the Qunari invasion causes the deaths of many (innocent) people. But unlike with the slaves, Isabela is not directly responsible for their deaths. The Qunari are still the ones who killed them, and it is not likely that Isabela could have predicted that the Arishok would go crazy (like basically everyone else in the game). 

This event now really dominates Isabela's character for me, and it stains the sincerity of the relationships she develops with both Hawke and the companions. I truly doubt that Fenris would get close to her and develop such an intimate relationship with her if he knew that she had dumped slaves in the sea. In fact, he would likely have ripped her selfish head off. So in this instance she keeps Fenris in the dark on purpose and makes him believe that she freed slaves when she was confronted with them, just so that she can have sex with him. There are plenty of other men and women available for that. Or she can just go to the Rose if there are no volunteers. 
Again, the way Isabela develops makes you (and thus Hawke) believe she becomes more sincere. In the end she confesses to Hawke that she loves him/her. If I believe what the game is telling me, then I assume that Isabela respects Hawke and wants to be honest with him/her, and NOT build their relationship on more lies and secrets. Isabela stresses to Aveline that the most important thing is that she knows herself, and that she can be okay with that. And yet she would only present a fake, incomplete version of herself to Hawke? Maybe in the beginning, yes, but not in the end when she has really fallen for Hawke. At that point the game is not offering me any information that would make me believe that there is still a huge, ugly secret in her past that would completely change my (and my character's) view on her. 

When you romance Morrigan, the game does create this vague feeling of not knowing everything about her and that you can't be completely sure how much you can trust her, especially when she comes with the offer of the Ritual. In this case the game gives enough information for me to know that my Warden has fallen for someone who might not be honest and who keeps secrets. DA2 does not do that. It tries and tries to make Isabela a nice pirate, someone with some morals, despite what she believes and wants you to believe. A pirate who finds slaves on her ship and frees them.

[Ironic Discordia]

esper wrote...
You keep missing my point. It is not about what the character knows. It is about what the player knows. Player exist on a different level of... abstraction than the characters. That means they experience the story differently, They know more. They get involved differently. This has to do with players enjoyment of the game, not in character knowlegde. And if the extra materials is not required, then everything important from that material has to make it into the game. Else it affects the players ability to play the game in a enjoyable way.

Media has to do with quality. If you translate directly from one media to the next, the adaption will be of bad quality. It is not just control and pacing. It is everything, because nothing works in the same way. A comics visual does not move around, like dragon ages visual does, because they are standing still pictures. You do not write the character in the same way, it is not possible. Bad adaptation are the ones that think they can get away with only control and pacing when translating a game. You cannot.

How do you represent Isabella's tone of voice in a comic for example. With different fonts, types of writings, body gestures - This is important to think about.
What about her thoughts, should they be avaiable in the comics?
How about how she moves? How she fights?
All these things have to be adapted to get a character that comes 'close to' Isabella, but a 1:1 is impossible.

1. It might affect your enjoyment of the story, but you don't speak for everyone. I enjoy the books, games, and comics. Separately and together. I'm especially baffled by the concept that you could experience less enjoyment of a story based on information you don't know about. Or that learning something after the fact might somehow retroactively lessen the enjoyment you felt at the time. Doesn't make sense to me. Everything important is in the games. Hence why it's there.

2. I'm sorry, but I disagree. A writer can totally take a character and portray them in different types of media and have it be the same character. Just because you have to change how you present information doesn't change the character. I will grant you that experience of media is a subjective experience, however, so you're more than entitled to feel like that's not Isabela or that trying to use different media is somehow always bad. I personally don't feel that way.

[leaguer of one]

renjility wrote...

esper wrote...

If Isabella's past and stance on slavers is important towards Hawke (it is) then that knowlegde should gleanable from game. Don't get me wrong, Isabella is under no demand to tell the truth and tell everything, the game, however, should make the information avaible to the player in game so that they player can make informed choice. Or else the player should simply not make any choices about anything related to Isabella's past.

Agreed. The way Isabela develops over the course of DA2 makes you believe that she becomes more honest and in the end dares to open up to Hawke (mostly when Hawke is romanced). The game does not give any hint whatsoever that Isabela hides such a horrible secret. Yes, we get to learn that Isabela is selfish. But when someone is selfish you don't atuomatically assume that that person is willing to dump hundreds of bound, innocent people in the sea to drown to save their own hide. That is beyond selfish. As far as I'm concerned, that is pure evil. 
And yes, I know she is a pirate and therefore not an innocent sweetheart. But as others have said, the game really does its best to make her likeable and come across as the fun Jack Sparrow kind of pirate, not the monster that leaves slaves to drown. Yes, the Qunari invasion causes the deaths of many (innocent) people. But unlike with the slaves, Isabela is not directly responsible for their deaths. The Qunari are still the ones who killed them, and it is not likely that Isabela could have predicted that the Arishok would go crazy (like basically everyone else in the game). 

This event now really dominates Isabela's character for me, and it stains the sincerity of the relationships she develops with both Hawke and the companions. I truly doubt that Fenris would get close to her and develop such an intimate relationship with her if he knew that she had dumped slaves in the sea. In fact, he would likely have ripped her selfish head off. So in this instance she keeps Fenris in the dark on purpose and makes him believe that she freed slaves when she was confronted with them, just so that she can have sex with him. There are plenty of other men and women available for that. Or she can just go to the Rose if there are no volunteers. 
Again, the way Isabela develops makes you (and thus Hawke) believe she becomes more sincere. In the end she confesses to Hawke that she loves him/her. If I believe what the game is telling me, then I assume that Isabela respects Hawke and wants to be honest with him/her, and NOT build their relationship on more lies and secrets. Isabela stresses to Aveline that the most important thing is that she knows herself, and that she can be okay with that. And yet she would only present a fake, incomplete version of herself to Hawke? Maybe in the beginning, yes, but not in the end when she has really fallen for Hawke. At that point the game is not offering me any information that would make me believe that there is still a huge, ugly secret in her past that would completely change my (and my character's) view on her. 

When you romance Morrigan, the game does create this vague feeling of not knowing everything about her and that you can't be completely sure how much you can trust her, especially when she comes with the offer of the Ritual. In this case the game gives enough information for me to know that my Warden has fallen for someone who might not be honest and who keeps secrets. DA2 does not do that. It tries and tries to make Isabela a nice pirate, someone with some morals, despite what she believes and wants you to believe. A pirate who finds slaves on her ship and frees them.

You do understand that knowing about what Isabela did in the past does not effect who she is now?

[Jedi Master of Orion]

Of course it does. Everything in her past affects how she is now. She herself even admits that "our mistakes make us what we are."

How are we supposed to understand her without perhaps the mistake she feels most guilty about?

[esper]

leaguer of one wrote...

esper wrote...



You keep missing my point. It is not about what the character knows. It is about what the player knows. Player exist on a different level of... abstraction than the characters. That means they experience the story differently, They know more. They get involved differently. This has to do with players enjoyment of the game, not in character knowlegde. And if the extra materials is not required, then everything important from that material has to make it into the game. Else it affects the players ability to play the game in a enjoyable way.

Media has to do with quality. If you translate directly from one media to the next, the adaption will be of bad quality. It is not just control and pacing. It is everything, because nothing works in the same way. A comics visual does not move around, like dragon ages visual does, because they are standing still pictures. You do not write the character in the same way, it is not possible. Bad adaptation are the ones that think they can get away with only control and pacing when translating a game. You cannot.

How do you represent Isabella's tone of voice in a comic for example. With different fonts, types of writings, body gestures - This is important to think about.
What about her thoughts, should they be avaiable in the comics?
How about how she moves? How she fights?
All these things have to be adapted to get a character that comes 'close to' Isabella, but a 1:1 is impossible.

And what the player know does not matter. The story is not made or written to take in part with what the player knows. It's written and made in consideration that the pc is ignorante. You not knowing about past event is not going to change the game. The fact that new players can come in any game proves that point.

And no media had nothing to do with quality. How media is made is what effects quality. And yes it is just control and pacing. The only differnce is the view is not interaction with the event in the comic and can't effect them. The only difference with how character is written with a comic and a game is that in a game the character wait around for you to interact with them and you choosing the pace while in a comic they don't. You can easily write the character the same way. The differnece is pacing and control.

"How do you represent Isabella's tone of voice in a comic for example. With different fonts, types of writings, body gestures - This is important to think about."
Voice is not the only way to convye tone. It can be done with pure writing. Body lauguge can also be conveded with writing, even more so with an illustration. The fact that the production is differnet and how something is convey does not make one quality less or make it impossible for the say storytelling style to be used. The diffence in the end is still just pacing and control.

Media does not effect quality. It effect effort and production.

Yes, it can be done with pure writing (Which btw is not a good idea in a comic). But it will never be the same as in game and a good change it will not be as effective. You have to understand: A book and a comic can for exmaple describe her voice. It can say thing like: 'Said Isabella flirtaously' But reading that is not the same as hearing. So when adapting you have to ask: 
How do I get flirtaous across best: Should I draw Isabella's speech bubble in a differnet shape/colours/text types - perhaps a heart form. Should I hope that  Isabella's body langue is powerfull enough on its own to get flirtatous across. How about those moment where she fight and flirts... how do I get that across? Ect, ect...

And what about non-Isabella character where body langue and tone does not match? What do I do with them?

Comics don't use the same 'langue' as games when giving information to
the consumer, so they have to translate the whole character not just
tidbit.

It does make the quality less if you go for the 1:1 translation. That is my point. You have to adapt everything to keep the quality consistent and then if you afterwards have to adapt back again into a game... Well, let's just say it is a lot of work. And since I don't think you are understanding what i am trying to say here. (That might just as well be my less than perfect english). I am not saying that a certain media have inherit quality in themselves, but certain types of narratives does make for a better quality story in certain media and if an adaptation is tried 1:1 it will drop the quality of the narrative.

[Dutchess]

leaguer of one wrote...

You do understand that knowing about what Isabela did in the past does not effect who she is now?

No, I do not. Or at least I disagree. To throw in another of Isabela's quote: "our mistakes make us who we are." That part of her past is important. It shaped her motivation to free the slaves she does talk about. Many of the characters are defined by events in their past. Most of the time it is crucial to learn of this past to get to understand them better. What Isabela did is huge, and should have been used in the game, just like Zevran's past of killing the woman he loved for believing she had betrayed the Crows. Just like Leliana's past with Marjoleine, like Fenris' past as Danarius'slave. It matters, it defined the persons who they are now and who they used to be.

[Fredward]

Just because you don't know a character's full background doesn't make that character inconsistent. You work with what you know. In real life people will always keep some secrets from you, it's the same here. That doesn't make their feelings for you less, nor their guilt (if applicable). It's just silly to want to know everything about a character, their lives don't revolve around you. Isabela's less so than most.

[esper]

Ironic Discordia wrote...

esper wrote...
You keep missing my point. It is not about what the character knows. It is about what the player knows. Player exist on a different level of... abstraction than the characters. That means they experience the story differently, They know more. They get involved differently. This has to do with players enjoyment of the game, not in character knowlegde. And if the extra materials is not required, then everything important from that material has to make it into the game. Else it affects the players ability to play the game in a enjoyable way.

Media has to do with quality. If you translate directly from one media to the next, the adaption will be of bad quality. It is not just control and pacing. It is everything, because nothing works in the same way. A comics visual does not move around, like dragon ages visual does, because they are standing still pictures. You do not write the character in the same way, it is not possible. Bad adaptation are the ones that think they can get away with only control and pacing when translating a game. You cannot.

How do you represent Isabella's tone of voice in a comic for example. With different fonts, types of writings, body gestures - This is important to think about.
What about her thoughts, should they be avaiable in the comics?
How about how she moves? How she fights?
All these things have to be adapted to get a character that comes 'close to' Isabella, but a 1:1 is impossible.

1. It might affect your enjoyment of the story, but you don't speak for everyone. I enjoy the books, games, and comics. Separately and together. I'm especially baffled by the concept that you could experience less enjoyment of a story based on information you don't know about. Or that learning something after the fact might somehow retroactively lessen the enjoyment you felt at the time. Doesn't make sense to me. Everything important is in the games. Hence why it's there.

2. I'm sorry, but I disagree. A writer can totally take a character and portray them in different types of media and have it be the same character. Just because you have to change how you present information doesn't change the character. I will grant you that experience of media is a subjective experience, however, so you're more than entitled to feel like that's not Isabela or that trying to use different media is somehow always bad. I personally don't feel that way.

I am not saying the comics and books/comics aren't good. Gaider is a good writer. I am certain that as stand alone narratives they are excellent and very enjoyable.

2. No they can have them be alike. But you can simply not convey the same 'cues' to the consumer. Granted if you do a good adaptation, the consumer will say 'Ahh... I can't tell the difference' and not notice that somethings is lacking and somethings is added and some a slightly changed. If the adaptation is good the consumer basically does the last work themselves and hopefully merge the two character into one while enjoying the book. But it not the exact same character because if it was... you would not enjoy the character and actually properly feel that they were not good adapted. (Also have in mind that I include everything in the description of character, from their looks, to their personality, to their back story, to how their character model walks in game').

[leaguer of one]

esper wrote...

leaguer of one wrote...

esper wrote...



You keep missing my point. It is not about what the character knows. It is about what the player knows. Player exist on a different level of... abstraction than the characters. That means they experience the story differently, They know more. They get involved differently. This has to do with players enjoyment of the game, not in character knowlegde. And if the extra materials is not required, then everything important from that material has to make it into the game. Else it affects the players ability to play the game in a enjoyable way.

Media has to do with quality. If you translate directly from one media to the next, the adaption will be of bad quality. It is not just control and pacing. It is everything, because nothing works in the same way. A comics visual does not move around, like dragon ages visual does, because they are standing still pictures. You do not write the character in the same way, it is not possible. Bad adaptation are the ones that think they can get away with only control and pacing when translating a game. You cannot.

How do you represent Isabella's tone of voice in a comic for example. With different fonts, types of writings, body gestures - This is important to think about.
What about her thoughts, should they be avaiable in the comics?
How about how she moves? How she fights?
All these things have to be adapted to get a character that comes 'close to' Isabella, but a 1:1 is impossible.

And what the player know does not matter. The story is not made or written to take in part with what the player knows. It's written and made in consideration that the pc is ignorante. You not knowing about past event is not going to change the game. The fact that new players can come in any game proves that point.

And no media had nothing to do with quality. How media is made is what effects quality. And yes it is just control and pacing. The only differnce is the view is not interaction with the event in the comic and can't effect them. The only difference with how character is written with a comic and a game is that in a game the character wait around for you to interact with them and you choosing the pace while in a comic they don't. You can easily write the character the same way. The differnece is pacing and control.

"How do you represent Isabella's tone of voice in a comic for example. With different fonts, types of writings, body gestures - This is important to think about."
Voice is not the only way to convye tone. It can be done with pure writing. Body lauguge can also be conveded with writing, even more so with an illustration. The fact that the production is differnet and how something is convey does not make one quality less or make it impossible for the say storytelling style to be used. The diffence in the end is still just pacing and control.

Media does not effect quality. It effect effort and production.

Yes, it can be done with pure writing (Which btw is not a good idea in a comic). But it will never be the same as in game and a good change it will not be as effective. You have to understand: A book and a comic can for exmaple describe her voice. It can say thing like: 'Said Isabella flirtaously' But reading that is not the same as hearing. So when adapting you have to ask: 
How do I get flirtaous across best: Should I draw Isabella's speech bubble in a differnet shape/colours/text types - perhaps a heart form. Should I hope that  Isabella's body langue is powerfull enough on its own to get flirtatous across. How about those moment where she fight and flirts... how do I get that across? Ect, ect...

And what about non-Isabella character where body langue and tone does not match? What do I do with them?

Comics don't use the same 'langue' as games when giving information to
the consumer, so they have to translate the whole character not just
tidbit.

It does make the quality less if you go for the 1:1 translation. That is my point. You have to adapt everything to keep the quality consistent and then if you afterwards have to adapt back again into a game... Well, let's just say it is a lot of work. And since I don't think you are understanding what i am trying to say here. (That might just as well be my less than perfect english). I am not saying that a certain media have inherit quality in themselves, but certain types of narratives does make for a better quality story in certain media and if an adaptation is tried 1:1 it will drop the quality of the narrative.

A comic does not do it with pure writing. My point is there is more then one way to do the character tone and felling. One media is not better then another in doing that. The difference is how it's translated and the is up to the veiwers comperihention. Even animated media can do that badly. And translation is never 1:1, it's based on the understanding of the view and that is relative. Hearing her voice and imagining her voice is not a drop of quality. It's a form of translation.
And getting that across in a comic is easy being that word bubble is not the only tool the comic can use. Flirting is not just done with voice.

Media does not effect quality. It effect effort and production.

[esper]

Foopydoopydoo wrote...

Just because you don't know a character's full background doesn't make that character inconsistent. You work with what you know. In real life people will always keep some secrets from you, it's the same here. That doesn't make their feelings for you less, nor their guilt (if applicable). It's just silly to want to know everything about a character, their lives don't revolve around you. Isabela's less so than most.

It is not about their lives revolving around the player character. It is about the player enjoying the story.

[Ironic Discordia]

esper wrote...

Ironic Discordia wrote...

esper wrote...
You keep missing my point. It is not about what the character knows. It is about what the player knows. Player exist on a different level of... abstraction than the characters. That means they experience the story differently, They know more. They get involved differently. This has to do with players enjoyment of the game, not in character knowlegde. And if the extra materials is not required, then everything important from that material has to make it into the game. Else it affects the players ability to play the game in a enjoyable way.

Media has to do with quality. If you translate directly from one media to the next, the adaption will be of bad quality. It is not just control and pacing. It is everything, because nothing works in the same way. A comics visual does not move around, like dragon ages visual does, because they are standing still pictures. You do not write the character in the same way, it is not possible. Bad adaptation are the ones that think they can get away with only control and pacing when translating a game. You cannot.

How do you represent Isabella's tone of voice in a comic for example. With different fonts, types of writings, body gestures - This is important to think about.
What about her thoughts, should they be avaiable in the comics?
How about how she moves? How she fights?
All these things have to be adapted to get a character that comes 'close to' Isabella, but a 1:1 is impossible.

1. It might affect your enjoyment of the story, but you don't speak for everyone. I enjoy the books, games, and comics. Separately and together. I'm especially baffled by the concept that you could experience less enjoyment of a story based on information you don't know about. Or that learning something after the fact might somehow retroactively lessen the enjoyment you felt at the time. Doesn't make sense to me. Everything important is in the games. Hence why it's there.

2. I'm sorry, but I disagree. A writer can totally take a character and portray them in different types of media and have it be the same character. Just because you have to change how you present information doesn't change the character. I will grant you that experience of media is a subjective experience, however, so you're more than entitled to feel like that's not Isabela or that trying to use different media is somehow always bad. I personally don't feel that way.

I am not saying the comics and books/comics aren't good. Gaider is a good writer. I am certain that as stand alone narratives they are excellent and very enjoyable.

2. No they can have them be alike. But you can simply not convey the same 'cues' to the consumer. Granted if you do a good adaptation, the consumer will say 'Ahh... I can't tell the difference' and not notice that somethings is lacking and somethings is added and some a slightly changed. If the adaptation is good the consumer basically does the last work themselves and hopefully merge the two character into one while enjoying the book. But it not the exact same character because if it was... you would not enjoy the character and actually properly feel that they were not good adapted. (Also have in mind that I include everything in the description of character, from their looks, to their personality, to their back story, to how their character model walks in game').

Sorry, that still doesn't make sense to me. That's like saying I'm a different person if I have a blind friend, a deaf friend, and a friend with the ability to see and hear. They each perceive me in different ways, but I'm still the same person.

[leaguer of one]

renjility wrote...

leaguer of one wrote...

You do understand that knowing about what Isabela did in the past does not effect who she is now?

No, I do not. Or at least I disagree. To throw in another of Isabela's quote: "our mistakes make us who we are." That part of her past is important. It shaped her motivation to free the slaves she does talk about. Many of the characters are defined by events in their past. Most of the time it is crucial to learn of this past to get to understand them better. What Isabela did is huge, and should have been used in the game, just like Zevran's past of killing the woman he loved for believing she had betrayed the Crows. Just like Leliana's past with Marjoleine, like Fenris' past as Danarius'slave. It matters, it defined the persons who they are now and who they used to be.

TheIr mistakes does make them what they are but you knowing about theIr mistakes does not. That's my point. The issue is not what she has done, it about you knwing about them. You knowing about them does not effect her character, it effect how you react to the character. Isabela of now will stay the same reguardless of if you know about her past or not. It does not define the person, it effect how you feel about that person.

Modifié par leaguer of one, 17 septembre 2013 - 08:21 .

[leaguer of one]

esper wrote...

Foopydoopydoo wrote...

Just because you don't know a character's full background doesn't make that character inconsistent. You work with what you know. In real life people will always keep some secrets from you, it's the same here. That doesn't make their feelings for you less, nor their guilt (if applicable). It's just silly to want to know everything about a character, their lives don't revolve around you. Isabela's less so than most.

It is not about their lives revolving around the player character. It is about the player enjoying the story.

And the player does not need to know every detail going on to enjoy the story. A person can enjoy da:o with out reading stone throne and enjoy DA:A with out reading DA: THE CALLING. They can enjoy DA2 with out playing DAO.