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[Xilizhra]

Ryzaki wrote...

Thus my usage of the word SNAPING. No it's not completely justified. It is to me however understandable after years in the cesspool that is Kirkwall he got damn tired of it and wanted it burned to the ground.

Dumar is the vicount right? The one who incompetently let the Qunari delegate be kidnapped right from his doorstep (thanks to him having their sword tied into their sheathes) allowing them to be burned to death by Peatrice?

Ironically, the Arishok fell victim to Kirkwall's madness like everyone else. Hawke was the only one who could stay out of it.

To be honest, I think that Kirkwall itself is the villain of DA2, similar to the cathedral being the protagonist of Notre Dame du Paris, and that Hawke being its "Champion" is really a sign of Hawke having mastered the place... which it clearly doesn't like, hence it constantly trying to kill her, culminating with Meredith, its ultimate minion.

[MerinTB]

Ironic Discordia wrote...

MerinTB wrote...
Or you could just deal with the fact that games != comics != novels != TV series != movies.

I find this statement ironic given your icon of Xander from the Season 8 or 9 comics. But that's really not on topic.

Ironic?  How am I doing the opposite of what I am saying?

I've read Buffy books and comics as well as watched the original movie and the entire TV series.  I had no problem with the pre-canonical Season 8 (Season 5 of Angel) comics being "not TV canonical" just like I'm fine with the movie being "not TV canonical."

I fail to see irony in having a picture of a character from a comic book and stating that I have no problem with different continuities...

unless you have a DIFFERENT meaning of the word "irony", as in you actually mean the oft-misused "coincidence" as a synonym for irony.

Modifié par MerinTB, 18 septembre 2013 - 03:12 .

[Ryzaki]

Steelcan wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

Thus my usage of the word SNAPING.

Dumar is the vicount right? The one who incompetently let his soldiers be kidnapped right from his doorstep allowing them to be burned to death by Peatrice?

Don't be ridiculous, they were tortured to death.

Oh well that's clearly MUCH better.

Steelcan wrote...

I'd have liked an option to have Isabella sell the tome to Tevinter and you work with them to remove the Qunari.....

I'm still wishing for that "screw you guys I'm outta here" option for act 3.

[d4eaming]

Xilizhra wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

Thus my usage of the word SNAPING. No it's not completely justified. It is to me however understandable after years in the cesspool that is Kirkwall he got damn tired of it and wanted it burned to the ground.

Dumar is the vicount right? The one who incompetently let the Qunari delegate be kidnapped right from his doorstep (thanks to him having their sword tied into their sheathes) allowing them to be burned to death by Peatrice?

Ironically, the Arishok fell victim to Kirkwall's madness like everyone else. Hawke was the only one who could stay out of it.

To be honest, I think that Kirkwall itself is the villain of DA2, similar to the cathedral being the protagonist of Notre Dame du Paris, and that Hawke being its "Champion" is really a sign of Hawke having mastered the place... which it clearly doesn't like, hence it constantly trying to kill her, culminating with Meredith, its ultimate minion.

I just wanna say this is a BRILLIANT take away and I'm angry I never thought about it. Malevolent architecture, indeed!

[MerinTB]

Ryzaki wrote...
I'm still wishing for that "screw you guys I'm outta here" option for act 3.

Seconded for the "Pox on both your houses" option.

[addiction21]

MerinTB wrote...

Ironic Discordia wrote...

MerinTB wrote...
Or you could just deal with the fact that games != comics != novels != TV series != movies.

I find this statement ironic given your icon of Xander from the Season 8 or 9 comics. But that's really not on topic.

Ironic?  How am I doing the opposite of what I am saying?

I've read Buffy books and comics as well as watched the original movie and the entire TV series.  I had no problem with the pre-canonical Season 8 (Season 5 of Angel) comics being "not TV canonical" just like I'm fine with the movie being "not TV canonical."

I fail to see irony in having a picture of a character from a comic book and stating that I have no problem with different continuities...

unless you have a DIFFERENT meaning of the word "irony", as in you actually mean the oft-misused "coincidence" as a synonym for irony.

Really? I always thought it was a young Nick Fury.

[MerinTB]

addiction21 wrote...
Really? I always thought it was a young Nick Fury.

That's funny.  He thinks he IS a young Nick Fury in those stories.

[Xilizhra]

d4eaming wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

Thus my usage of the word SNAPING. No it's not completely justified. It is to me however understandable after years in the cesspool that is Kirkwall he got damn tired of it and wanted it burned to the ground.

Dumar is the vicount right? The one who incompetently let the Qunari delegate be kidnapped right from his doorstep (thanks to him having their sword tied into their sheathes) allowing them to be burned to death by Peatrice?

Ironically, the Arishok fell victim to Kirkwall's madness like everyone else. Hawke was the only one who could stay out of it.

To be honest, I think that Kirkwall itself is the villain of DA2, similar to the cathedral being the protagonist of Notre Dame du Paris, and that Hawke being its "Champion" is really a sign of Hawke having mastered the place... which it clearly doesn't like, hence it constantly trying to kill her, culminating with Meredith, its ultimate minion.

I just wanna say this is a BRILLIANT take away and I'm angry I never thought about it. Malevolent architecture, indeed!

Ah, thank you.

Other artistic musings on the game I've had are around the constant themes of madness and confinement/entrapment, the principles that Kirkwall most embodies in the game (City of Chains), and it's interesting to see how they conflict with and yet reinforce each other. The mages are confined, and many respond by going mad, for the most obvious one... but the templars do the same, as the holder of one set of chains while being leashed by another. The qunari are clearly bound, but resist the madness for some time until succumbing disastrously, whereas Petrice was an avatar of madness from the beginning. The profane in the Deep Roads are bound to the lyrium, in the tomb surrounding the idol of madness. All of your companions are bound in some way or another, and through the companion quests, you generally involve releasing them... with some exceptions. Your sibling, like you, is free at first but becomes bound; Varric's chains are solely to Kirkwall itself (although these may finally be broken in the end); and Anders is specifically bound to a mad spirit, being the one who gets the worst dose of Kirkwall's toxins, and finally lashes out in the greatest way possible.
And the end, I believe, involves a choice between fighting Kirkwall or accepting it, between mages and templars. In the templar ending, the city finally chains you into the position of viscount, but in the mage ending, you and your companions all finally escape its wrath forever.

[Ironic Discordia]

MerinTB wrote...

Ironic Discordia wrote...

MerinTB wrote...
Or you could just deal with the fact that games != comics != novels != TV series != movies.

I find this statement ironic given your icon of Xander from the Season 8 or 9 comics. But that's really not on topic.

Ironic?  How am I doing the opposite of what I am saying?

I've read Buffy books and comics as well as watched the original movie and the entire TV series.  I had no problem with the pre-canonical Season 8 (Season 5 of Angel) comics being "not TV canonical" just like I'm fine with the movie being "not TV canonical."

I fail to see irony in having a picture of a character from a comic book and stating that I have no problem with different continuities...

unless you have a DIFFERENT meaning of the word "irony", as in you actually mean the oft-misused "coincidence" as a synonym for irony.

It would probably be a bit derailing to argue over Buffy canon. At any rate, I interpreted that last bit as a suggestion that using different media would make something non-canon. My understanding of the Buffy comics is that they're the same canon as the TV series, just different media. (The movie exists within a separate continuity, since the TV/comics assume Buffy burned down the gym. Thus, it's not canon.) I may have simply misinterpreted what you meant by the last statement, and if that's the case, I apologize.

Or we're working under different definitions, which does seem to be a common problem in this thread. I'm working under the thought that all forms of media sharing the same continuity and approved by the author/creator are the defined canon.

[Ironic Discordia]

Jedi Master of Orion wrote...

No, actually she implies the opposite with Zevran in the Pearl in DAO.

Ah, so she does. It's been too long since I've played that part in Origins. Sorry. I think I got her husband's death confused with someone else she actually killed.

[Ryzaki]

MerinTB wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...
I'm still wishing for that "screw you guys I'm outta here" option for act 3.

Seconded for the "Pox on both your houses" option.

XD

It would've been nice to see the look on Cassandra's face when Varric told her

"And then Hawke got onto the nearest boat and got the hell out of Kirkwall. The end." 

[Xilizhra]

Ryzaki wrote...

MerinTB wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...
I'm still wishing for that "screw you guys I'm outta here" option for act 3.

Seconded for the "Pox on both your houses" option.

XD

It would've been nice to see the look on Cassandra's face when Varric told her

"And then Hawke got onto the nearest boat and got the hell out of Kirkwall. The end." 

This is approximately like leaving Ferelden in DAO.

[Gwydden]

Xilizhra wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

MerinTB wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...
I'm still wishing for that "screw you guys I'm outta here" option for act 3.

Seconded for the "Pox on both your houses" option.

XD

It would've been nice to see the look on Cassandra's face when Varric told her

"And then Hawke got onto the nearest boat and got the hell out of Kirkwall. The end." 

This is approximately like leaving Ferelden in DAO.

Err... not exactly. Saving an entire kingdom from a Blight, for one reason or another, seems more feasible for a wide variety of personalities than sticking in a cursed city, even when none of your family remains there.

[Xilizhra]

Gwydden wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

MerinTB wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...
I'm still wishing for that "screw you guys I'm outta here" option for act 3.

Seconded for the "Pox on both your houses" option.

XD

It would've been nice to see the look on Cassandra's face when Varric told her

"And then Hawke got onto the nearest boat and got the hell out of Kirkwall. The end." 

This is approximately like leaving Ferelden in DAO.

Err... not exactly. Saving an entire kingdom from a Blight, for one reason or another, seems more feasible for a wide variety of personalities than sticking in a cursed city, even when none of your family remains there.

It amounts to the same thing: "Everyone here is a jerk and I don't care whether they live or die. I'm leaving now."

[d4eaming]

Xilizhra wrote...

d4eaming wrote...

I just wanna say this is a BRILLIANT take away and I'm angry I never thought about it. Malevolent architecture, indeed!

Ah, thank you.

Other artistic musings on the game I've had are around the constant themes of madness and confinement/entrapment, the principles that Kirkwall most embodies in the game (City of Chains), and it's interesting to see how they conflict with and yet reinforce each other. The mages are confined, and many respond by going mad, for the most obvious one... but the templars do the same, as the holder of one set of chains while being leashed by another. The qunari are clearly bound, but resist the madness for some time until succumbing disastrously, whereas Petrice was an avatar of madness from the beginning. The profane in the Deep Roads are bound to the lyrium, in the tomb surrounding the idol of madness. All of your companions are bound in some way or another, and through the companion quests, you generally involve releasing them... with some exceptions. Your sibling, like you, is free at first but becomes bound; Varric's chains are solely to Kirkwall itself (although these may finally be broken in the end); and Anders is specifically bound to a mad spirit, being the one who gets the worst dose of Kirkwall's toxins, and finally lashes out in the greatest way possible.
And the end, I believe, involves a choice between fighting Kirkwall or accepting it, between mages and templars. In the templar ending, the city finally chains you into the position of viscount, but in the mage ending, you and your companions all finally escape its wrath forever.

I like this whole quote, and it makes total sense to me. I found the "Enigma of Kirkwall" stuff intriguing, even if I didn't find all the pieces of it (I don't remember if I got all of them, but I certainly got enough to understand the madness going on). Once I did Legacy, I think I assumed it was directly related to that somehow, but this makes more sense to me. They did royally screw up Kirkwall and the veil is thin, that was made clear. Maybe Kirkwall itself houses a demon of some kind. Rage perhaps? Rage isn't that far from madness in certain circumstances.

That really gives me a whole new perspective on the game though. Evil city. Hot damn.

[Xilizhra]

d4eaming wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

d4eaming wrote...

I just wanna say this is a BRILLIANT take away and I'm angry I never thought about it. Malevolent architecture, indeed!

Ah, thank you.

Other artistic musings on the game I've had are around the constant themes of madness and confinement/entrapment, the principles that Kirkwall most embodies in the game (City of Chains), and it's interesting to see how they conflict with and yet reinforce each other. The mages are confined, and many respond by going mad, for the most obvious one... but the templars do the same, as the holder of one set of chains while being leashed by another. The qunari are clearly bound, but resist the madness for some time until succumbing disastrously, whereas Petrice was an avatar of madness from the beginning. The profane in the Deep Roads are bound to the lyrium, in the tomb surrounding the idol of madness. All of your companions are bound in some way or another, and through the companion quests, you generally involve releasing them... with some exceptions. Your sibling, like you, is free at first but becomes bound; Varric's chains are solely to Kirkwall itself (although these may finally be broken in the end); and Anders is specifically bound to a mad spirit, being the one who gets the worst dose of Kirkwall's toxins, and finally lashes out in the greatest way possible.
And the end, I believe, involves a choice between fighting Kirkwall or accepting it, between mages and templars. In the templar ending, the city finally chains you into the position of viscount, but in the mage ending, you and your companions all finally escape its wrath forever.

I like this whole quote, and it makes total sense to me. I found the "Enigma of Kirkwall" stuff intriguing, even if I didn't find all the pieces of it (I don't remember if I got all of them, but I certainly got enough to understand the madness going on). Once I did Legacy, I think I assumed it was directly related to that somehow, but this makes more sense to me. They did royally screw up Kirkwall and the veil is thin, that was made clear. Maybe Kirkwall itself houses a demon of some kind. Rage perhaps? Rage isn't that far from madness in certain circumstances.

That really gives me a whole new perspective on the game though. Evil city. Hot damn.

Kirkwall just seems to have a lot of various demons peeking through, not a single bound guardian demon. Unless you count Hybris... which certainly counts for something (not Xebenceck, who was summoned by Tahrone).

[Ryzaki]

Gwydden wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

MerinTB wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...
I'm still wishing for that "screw you guys I'm outta here" option for act 3.

Seconded for the "Pox on both your houses" option.

XD

It would've been nice to see the look on Cassandra's face when Varric told her

"And then Hawke got onto the nearest boat and got the hell out of Kirkwall. The end." 

This is approximately like leaving Ferelden in DAO.

Err... not exactly. Saving an entire kingdom from a Blight, for one reason or another, seems more feasible for a wide variety of personalities than sticking in a cursed city, even when none of your family remains there.

This.

My Rogue Hawke actually had jack reason to stay in Kirkwall after act 2. He wasn't a mage, all of his family save Gamlen were dead, his LI was Fenris. So yeah. What exactly was he staying in Kirkwall for? To fight yet even MORE bloodmages? 

At least with the blight you could always justify it as a world wide threat or wanting the fame and glory from it.

But my Hawke who's rich and can move to another safer country without a bunch of psychotic templars and mages fighting in it doesn't move...for reasons. NVM that his mother and sister died in that cesspool.

Modifié par Ryzaki, 18 septembre 2013 - 04:15 .

[Ryzaki]

Xilizhra wrote...
It amounts to the same thing: "Everyone here is a jerk and I don't care whether they live or die. I'm leaving now."

Yeah it's called "I don't care what happens to these people"

It's not a good thing.

A comet could've come out of nowhere and blown Kirkwall off the map and my reaction would've been "Oh."

Modifié par Ryzaki, 18 septembre 2013 - 04:22 .

[Gwydden]

Ryzaki wrote...

Gwydden wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

MerinTB wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...
I'm still wishing for that "screw you guys I'm outta here" option for act 3.

Seconded for the "Pox on both your houses" option.

XD

It would've been nice to see the look on Cassandra's face when Varric told her

"And then Hawke got onto the nearest boat and got the hell out of Kirkwall. The end." 

This is approximately like leaving Ferelden in DAO.

Err... not exactly. Saving an entire kingdom from a Blight, for one reason or another, seems more feasible for a wide variety of personalities than sticking in a cursed city, even when none of your family remains there.

This.

My Rogue Hawke actually had jack reason to stay in Kirkwall after act 2. He wasn't a mage, all of his family save Gamlen were dead, his LI was Fenris. So yeah. What exactly was he staying in Kirkwall for? To fight yet even MORE bloodmages? 

At least with the blight you could always justify it as a world wide threat or wanting the fame and glory from it.

But my Hawke who's rich and can move to another safer country without a bunch of psychotic templars and mages fighting in it doesn't move...for reasons. NVM that his mother and sister died in that cesspool.

I wonder how do they plan to pull this off in DAI. Why will the PC (possibly from a very foreign environment) become the leader of the Inquisition? The players must have the character match the story (the Warden can't be the sort of person who would rather seek the help of others in Orlais and leave Ferelden to its fate) but it sucks when you are forced into an absolutely ilogical situation.

[Ryzaki]

Gwydden wrote...
I wonder how do they plan to pull this off in DAI. Why will the PC (possibly from a very foreign environment) become the leader of the Inquisition? The players must have the character match the story (the Warden can't be the sort of person who would rather seek the help of others in Orlais and leave Ferelden to its fate) but it sucks when you are forced into an absolutely ilogical situation.

They really shouldn't have killed off Leandra. That alone would've been reason enough for my Hawke not to leave. To keep his mother safe. But nope. Let's make it possible (and easy) for Hawke to kill off his/her entire family save Gamlen (who...is GAMLEN).

Yeah and while it was really easy for me to make a Warden where staying in Fereldan was the best solution (CE wanted her family safe becasue the CEs would be the last people evacuated), HN wanted Howe and Loghain's head on silver platters, Mage wanted Loghain to answer for the Uldred incident. I can't help but make Hawkes that just wanna leave Kirkwall.

There's nothing compelling in Kirkwall save the companions. And even they aren't worth the headache of the plot.

[Gwydden]

Ryzaki wrote...

Gwydden wrote...
I wonder how do they plan to pull this off in DAI. Why will the PC (possibly from a very foreign environment) become the leader of the Inquisition? The players must have the character match the story (the Warden can't be the sort of person who would rather seek the help of others in Orlais and leave Ferelden to its fate) but it sucks when you are forced into an absolutely ilogical situation.

They really shouldn't have killed off Leandra. That alone would've been reason enough for my Hawke not to leave. To keep his mother safe. But nope. Let's make it possible (and easy) for Hawke to kill off his/her entire family save Gamlen (who...is GAMLEN).

Yeah and while it was really easy for me to make a Warden where staying in Fereldan was the best solution (CE wanted her family safe becasue the CEs would be the last people evacuated), HN wanted Howe and Loghain's head on silver platters, Mage wanted Loghain to answer for the Uldred incident. I can't help but make Hawkes that just wanna leave Kirkwall.

There's nothing compelling in Kirkwall save the companions. And even they aren't worth the headache of the plot.

And there we have yet another question: why do the companions stay?

[Xilizhra]

Gwydden wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

Gwydden wrote...
I wonder how do they plan to pull this off in DAI. Why will the PC (possibly from a very foreign environment) become the leader of the Inquisition? The players must have the character match the story (the Warden can't be the sort of person who would rather seek the help of others in Orlais and leave Ferelden to its fate) but it sucks when you are forced into an absolutely ilogical situation.

They really shouldn't have killed off Leandra. That alone would've been reason enough for my Hawke not to leave. To keep his mother safe. But nope. Let's make it possible (and easy) for Hawke to kill off his/her entire family save Gamlen (who...is GAMLEN).

Yeah and while it was really easy for me to make a Warden where staying in Fereldan was the best solution (CE wanted her family safe becasue the CEs would be the last people evacuated), HN wanted Howe and Loghain's head on silver platters, Mage wanted Loghain to answer for the Uldred incident. I can't help but make Hawkes that just wanna leave Kirkwall.

There's nothing compelling in Kirkwall save the companions. And even they aren't worth the headache of the plot.

And there we have yet another question: why do the companions stay?

Varric likes it. Aveline's captain. Merrill can't really move the Eluvian. Anders has his plans there. Isabela's trying to find the Tome of Koslun. Fenris is hiding out. Sebastian's kind of hanging around the Chantry.

[Gwydden]

Xilizhra wrote...

Gwydden wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

Gwydden wrote...
I wonder how do they plan to pull this off in DAI. Why will the PC (possibly from a very foreign environment) become the leader of the Inquisition? The players must have the character match the story (the Warden can't be the sort of person who would rather seek the help of others in Orlais and leave Ferelden to its fate) but it sucks when you are forced into an absolutely ilogical situation.

They really shouldn't have killed off Leandra. That alone would've been reason enough for my Hawke not to leave. To keep his mother safe. But nope. Let's make it possible (and easy) for Hawke to kill off his/her entire family save Gamlen (who...is GAMLEN).

Yeah and while it was really easy for me to make a Warden where staying in Fereldan was the best solution (CE wanted her family safe becasue the CEs would be the last people evacuated), HN wanted Howe and Loghain's head on silver platters, Mage wanted Loghain to answer for the Uldred incident. I can't help but make Hawkes that just wanna leave Kirkwall.

There's nothing compelling in Kirkwall save the companions. And even they aren't worth the headache of the plot.

And there we have yet another question: why do the companions stay?

Varric likes it. Aveline's captain. Merrill can't really move the Eluvian. Anders has his plans there. Isabela's trying to find the Tome of Koslun. Fenris is hiding out. Sebastian's kind of hanging around the Chantry.

I know, but most of them still seem extremely poor reasons to stay, and ALL of them do. It's not like some of those things couldn't be done elsewhere.

[Ryzaki]

Gwydden wrote...
I know, but most of them still seem extremely poor reasons to stay, and ALL of them do. It's not like some of those things couldn't be done elsewhere.

I guess if Aveline's married to Donnic she has a reason to stay but she's not always with Donnic. Fenris can hide out anywhere, Seb's staying for the Grand Cleric. and the rest I agree with they do need to stay in Kirk.

But since the only companion my Hawke tends to stay for is Fenris or Varric I'm pretty sure he wouldn't have that much difficulty convincing Fenris to come with him.

And honestly worse comes to worse that city was clearly going to hell in a handbasket. Why couldn't my Hawke just abort the mission. It's not like Hawke didn't realize it was a quickly lighting powderkeg. He clearly can't stop the crashing train why is he staying aboard.

Modifié par Ryzaki, 18 septembre 2013 - 04:40 .

[Xilizhra]

Ryzaki wrote...

Gwydden wrote...
I know, but most of them still seem extremely poor reasons to stay, and ALL of them do. It's not like some of those things couldn't be done elsewhere.

I guess if Aveline's married to Donnic she has a reason to stay but she's not always with Donnic. Fenris can hide out anywhere, Seb's staying for the Grand Cleric. and the rest I agree with they do need to stay in Kirk.

But since the only companion my Hawke tends to stay for is Fenris or Varric I'm pretty sure he wouldn't have that much difficulty convincing Fenris to come with him.

And honestly worse comes to worse that city was clearly going to hell in a handbasket. Why couldn't my Hawke just abort the mission. It's not like Hawke didn't realize it was a quickly lighting powderkeg. He clearly can't stop the crashing train why is he staying aboard.

City of Chains. You can't leave until you defeat everything it can throw at you.