401 réponses à ce sujet

[In Exile]

Ryzaki wrote...
Doesn't matter much to me because I always figured her for the type. I do wish it had been in game though. I hate when they add information in EU that isn't even eluded to in the MC.

People make this about being a bad person, but I don't think Isabella sees it that way. She puts herself above others. It's one thing to object to how slaves are treated. It's quite another to die for them. 

[Ryzaki]

In Exile wrote...
People make this about being a bad person, but I don't think Isabella sees it that way. She puts herself above others. It's one thing to object to how slaves are treated. It's quite another to die for them. 

You don't think being a slaver to begin with and then throwing them in the sea when you almost get caught (for enslaving and trafficikng people) makes a bad person? What exactly are they then?

Unless you're saying she didn't know she had slaves the first time.

I suppose people who mass traffic people today are what? Misunderstood? Also why would I care how Isabela sees herself? I doubt Ariel Castro saw himself as a terrible human being doesn't mean he wasn't. Not to mention I'm pretty sure Isabela is aware she's not a good human being. Now CARING about that is a totally different matter.

Her killing them is the cherry on top. But not the only questionable action.

That said DA series as a whole is filled with pretty terrible people so it's not like she's alone. She's in some great company.  (Including my manipulative bastard warden Amell )

Modifié par Ryzaki, 15 septembre 2013 - 08:01 .

[Jedi Master of Orion]

In Exile wrote...

Jedi Master of Orion wrote...

Hawke believes in her, so she starts to believe in herself too. But how can she when she knows Hawke doesn't know the real her?

Because she's a selfish liar? Her rivalry path in DA2 is about being less selfish and helping others, but her bing "eureka" moment is not letting a slaver go free. She'd have been happy to do it if it meant getting her ship despite all the harm she'd have caused (on the friendship path). She doesn't care about the consequences. She comes back to pull Hawke out of the fire because she cares about Hawke, not because she cares about Kirkwall burning.

The rivalry path involves her more clearly being heroic and wanting to help others but even on the friendship path her selfish tendacies are mitigated by the end of act 3. In both cases she starts to look beyond just herself, even if it's just so she can be the person that Hawke thinks she can be for his or her sake.

In Exile wrote...

Sten's guilt is losing control of himself contra the teaching of the Qun, not necesarily murdering those people.

He seems pretty clearly to be guilt ridden about killing those people, but even assuming that is true, you still can't remove refrences to that event from the game and understand his character properly.

Modifié par Jedi Master of Orion, 15 septembre 2013 - 07:59 .

[Master Warder Z_]

Most of Thedas has a decidedly Anti Slavery Viewpoint it does make me question where Isabella got her moral scruples as far as that went, Even Criminals in most parts of Thedas don't traffic in flesh.

That said i don't judge her for this action anymore then leading to the Qunari assault in Kirkwall, Compared to that this is barely a footnote in how many lives she ruined.

[Ryzaki]

Master Warder Z wrote...

Most of Thedas has a decidedly Anti Slavery Viewpoint it does make me question where Isabella got her moral scruples as far as that went, Even Criminals in most parts of Thedas don't traffic in flesh.

That said i don't judge her for this action anymore then leading to the Qunari assault in Kirkwall, Compared to that this is barely a footnote in how many lives she ruined.

I lol'd hard at the bolded. But seeing as she's a renowed pirate that's almost certainly the truth.

[Master Warder Z_]

Ryzaki wrote...

Master Warder Z wrote...

Most of Thedas has a decidedly Anti Slavery Viewpoint it does make me question where Isabella got her moral scruples as far as that went, Even Criminals in most parts of Thedas don't traffic in flesh.

That said i don't judge her for this action anymore then leading to the Qunari assault in Kirkwall, Compared to that this is barely a footnote in how many lives she ruined.

I lol'd hard at the bolded. But seeing as she's a renowed pirate that's almost certainly the truth.

You think leading to the first Qunari attack on non imperium thedas in centuries is a joke?

She caused an incident that led to invasion that killed dozens if not hundreds of innocent people and caused the deposing of the Viscount. The Arishok could have left years ago if she hadn't stolen the stupid book or had returned it.

But no she had to be her usual self and run.

She is as nearly responsible for what followed afterwards then the other three major players involved.

Just how i view it.

I strongly doubt however horrorific crimes elsewhere compare to what happened in Kirkwall.

[Ryzaki]

That wasn't only her handiwork though. Which is exactly why I figured Kirkwall would be a minor incident compared to her seafaring days.

Peatrice is far more to blame for the Arishok snaping than Isabela was.

[Jedi Master of Orion]

For me it's not just that, it also the fact that when it comes to all the people the Qunari killed, that's still more their fault than hers. Her selfishness when it comes to the Tome of Koslun leading to the Qunari Attack was pretty awful and I think she is certainly responsible, but you I still don't think she bears the greater share of responsibility (depending on how you look at it anyway). Executing all the slaves that she decided to transport herself is not something I feel like can be blamed on anyone but her.

Modifié par Jedi Master of Orion, 15 septembre 2013 - 08:22 .

[leaguer of one]

Jedi Master of Orion wrote...

For me it's not just that, it also the fact that when it comes to all the people the Qunari killed, that's still more their fault than hers. Her selfishness when it comes to the Tome of Koslun leading to the Qunari Attack was pretty awful and I think she is certainly responsible, but you I still don't think she bears the greater share of responsibility (depending on how you look at it anyway). Executing all the slaves that she decided to transport herself is not something I feel like can be blamed on anyone but her.

She did not execute them. Not willingly. They were put on her ship ageint her will and she then had to dump them.

[Karlone123]

I just look at it that she lied the whole time to Hawke regarding the slaves or at least held back some of the truth that she did release one batch of slaves but drowned the others. She has already lied about a lot of other stuff.

[Iosev]

In general, I do not think that characters have to be consistent all the time, because many people are inconsistent from time to time, including myself. Whether it's from a change of perspective, mitigating circumstances, or some other reason, people don't always speak or act the same way in all situations, and I personally think inconsistencies in fictional characters makes them seem more realistic.

[Jedi Master of Orion]

leaguer of one wrote...

Jedi Master of Orion wrote...

For me it's not just that, it also the fact that when it comes to all the people the Qunari killed, that's still more their fault than hers. Her selfishness when it comes to the Tome of Koslun leading to the Qunari Attack was pretty awful and I think she is certainly responsible, but you I still don't think she bears the greater share of responsibility (depending on how you look at it anyway). Executing all the slaves that she decided to transport herself is not something I feel like can be blamed on anyone but her.

She did not execute them. Not willingly. They were put on her ship ageint her will and she then had to dump them.

If she ordered them all killed by dumping them into the ocrean where they would certainly all die that's still the same as executing them.

[TheKomandorShepard]

she is selfish and liar she don't care about anyone what you expected she could lie to look better.

[In Exile]

Ryzaki wrote...
You don't think being a slaver to begin with and then throwing them in the sea when you almost get caught (for enslaving and trafficikng people) makes a bad person? What exactly are they then?

No, what I mean is that people aren't considering the possibility that Isabella is a bit of a sociopath. 

Jedi Master of Orion wrote...
The rivalry path involves her more clearly being heroic and wanting to help others but even on the friendship path her selfish tendacies are mitigated by the end of act 3. In both cases she starts to look beyond just herself, even if it's just so she can be the person that Hawke thinks she can be for his or her sake. 

In Act III. But the slave drowning is quite a great deal before that. I don't see how any of what you said would make her suddenly tell you about the time she had to drown slaves to get away. 

I mean, she full on lies about the tome of Koslun for 4 years. Even when she bursts into your house asking for your help. 

He seems pretty clearly to be guilt ridden about killing those people, but even assuming that is true, you still can't remove refrences to that event from the game and understand his character properly.

Alistair points it out too: what guilt might mean to him is not what it might mean to you or me. Sten is very much regrets what he did. But that's not the same as feeling guilty over it and not the same as caring about the people he killed as people. 

Modifié par In Exile, 15 septembre 2013 - 08:48 .

[Jedi Master of Orion]

In Exile wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...
You don't think being a slaver to begin with and then throwing them in the sea when you almost get caught (for enslaving and trafficikng people) makes a bad person? What exactly are they then?

No, what I mean is that people aren't considering the possibility that Isabella is a bit of a sociopath. 

I might be wrong on the psychology here but aren't sociopaths incapable of feeling remorse or empathy or something to that effect? That's definately not the case with Isabella as she's demontrasted both on occasion.

In Exile wrote...
In Act III. But the slave drowning is quite a great deal before that. I don't see how any of what you said would make her suddenly tell you about the time she had to drown slaves to get away. 

My point is that such an event would be relevant to her evolution as a character and relationship with Hawke, even on the friendship path it does not make sense to me that it would never come up before the end.

In Exile wrote...
Alistair points it out too: what guilt might mean to him is not what it might mean to you or me. Sten is very much regrets what he did. But that's not the same as feeling guilty over it and not the same as caring about the people he killed as people. 

I believe one of the devs mentioned that a Qunari would still feel bad about the deaths of those families because even though they wre bas, they still had the potential to be more. But as I said, it doesn't matter, whether he's feeling guilty for killing all those children or losing control, the guilt he feels is important to understanding his character. You couldn't just remove refrences to that event in the game itself and still have the same portrayal.

Modifié par Jedi Master of Orion, 15 septembre 2013 - 08:57 .

[Ryzaki]

In Exile wrote...
No, what I mean is that people aren't considering the possibility that Isabella is a bit of a sociopath.

I'm not calling her a sociopath I'm calling her a jerkass. Sten's a jerkass too.

She does express empathy and remorse on several occasions.

Bad person doesn't only mean psycho/sociopath.

Modifié par Ryzaki, 15 septembre 2013 - 08:56 .

[In Exile]

Jedi Master of Orion wrote...
I might be wrong on the psychology here but aren't sociopaths incapable of feeling remorse or empathy or something to that effect? That's definately not the case with Isabella as she's demontrasted both on occasion.

Empathy. But emphathy has a very narrow meaning, and it's not the same as, say, sympathy. Think of it this way: an emphathetic person would "understand what you're going through". 

It's that feeling when you look at someone who is sad and also feel sad. 

My point is that such an event would be relevant to her evolution as a character and relationship with Hawke, even on the friendship path it does not make sense to me that it would never come up before the end.

Why? She's a liar. She lies to you on multiple occassions to suit her own needs. Why would she talked about the time she drowned some slaves?

I believe one of the devs mentioned that a Qunari would still feel bad about the deaths of those families because even though they wre bas, they still had the potential to be more. 

Feeling bad that their deaths happened is not the same as feeling guilty over killing them. I might feel bad if I accidentaly broke my computer, but that's different than guit over hurting someone. 

[leaguer of one]

Jedi Master of Orion wrote...

leaguer of one wrote...

Jedi Master of Orion wrote...

For me it's not just that, it also the fact that when it comes to all the people the Qunari killed, that's still more their fault than hers. Her selfishness when it comes to the Tome of Koslun leading to the Qunari Attack was pretty awful and I think she is certainly responsible, but you I still don't think she bears the greater share of responsibility (depending on how you look at it anyway). Executing all the slaves that she decided to transport herself is not something I feel like can be blamed on anyone but her.

She did not execute them. Not willingly. They were put on her ship ageint her will and she then had to dump them.

If she ordered them all killed by dumping them into the ocrean where they would certainly all die that's still the same as executing them.

But she was not the one that ordered it.

[In Exile]

Ryzaki wrote...
I'm not calling her a sociopath I'm calling her a jerkass. Sten's a jerkass too.

She does express empathy and remorse on several occasions.

Bad person doesn't only mean psycho/sociopath.

She expresses sympathy. You can't express empathy. And I agree that bad doesn't equal socipoath (or psychopath). That was my point. Isabella doesn't care.

[Jedi Master of Orion]

The Dragon Age wiki says she did order the slaves drowned. Besides, wasn't she the captain of her ship at the time? Why wouldn't it have been up to her?

[Ryzaki]

In Exile wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...
I'm not calling her a sociopath I'm calling her a jerkass. Sten's a jerkass too.

She does express empathy and remorse on several occasions.

Bad person doesn't only mean psycho/sociopath.

She expresses sympathy. You can't express empathy. And I agree that bad doesn't equal socipoath (or psychopath). That was my point. Isabella doesn't care.

Fine Sympathy regardless I'm not seeing how you "she doesn't care" arguement refute my bad person one. So what exactly are you trying to say?

And as I said before Ariel Castro probably doesn't see himself as a bad person. That means diddly squat.

All I said was Isabela seems the type to drown slaves to get away after knowing enslaving said people and trafficking them. So...what exactly about that do you have a problem with?

Modifié par Ryzaki, 15 septembre 2013 - 09:04 .

[Jedi Master of Orion]

In Exile wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...
I'm not calling her a sociopath I'm calling her a jerkass. Sten's a jerkass too.

She does express empathy and remorse on several occasions.

Bad person doesn't only mean psycho/sociopath.

She expresses sympathy. You can't express empathy. And I agree that bad doesn't equal socipoath (or psychopath). That was my point. Isabella doesn't care.

I think she demonstrates a fair amount of empathy with the younger women in the party and to a certain degree with FemHawke herself. It's why she sort of positions herself as a sort of surrogate older sibling to Merrill and Bethany.

[Jaison1986]

In the end, I think the worst of it all it leaves an taint in her character. In the game, we are led to believe she is an pirate that does criminal activities but at least draws an line when it comes to people lives. And this allows us to get along with her. But now with these comics, she is actually shown as an horrible person that kills dozens of innocents just out of convenience. It feels like I was tricked. If I knew of what she truly did in the game, and not the comics, my opinion of her would be drastically different.

[Jedi Master of Orion]

That's my position in simple terms, too.

Modifié par Jedi Master of Orion, 15 septembre 2013 - 09:06 .

[BouncyFrag]

Hawke not being able to confront her about making childish excuses and then fleeing from the Qunari compound was lame. Not as lame as loosing family members in cut-scenes, but pretty close.