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[Wulfram]

Would Castillon's lot know about this incident?  Because you'd think they'd throw it in her face if they did.

edit:  @Sylvius It's confirmed by Hayder.  And probably Castillon too.

Modifié par Wulfram, 16 septembre 2013 - 10:28 .

[The Elder King]

leaguer of one wrote...

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

Jaison1986 wrote...

So here is the thing. When you meet Isabela, she says when she worked with Castillon she discovered that he was smuggling slaves, and she decided to free them because even as an pirate she had her limits.

And you believe her why?

Dude. It was to different events. The slave killing event happened before the slave freeing event.

Sylvius is probably referring to Isabela saying that she has limits.

[The Elder King]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

The question still stands. That Isabela said she did something is no reason to believe that she actually did it.

We can believe it because Hayder (Castillon's henchmen) said that Isabela screwed the job.

Modifié par hhh89, 16 septembre 2013 - 10:29 .

[leaguer of one]

hhh89 wrote...

leaguer of one wrote...

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

Jaison1986 wrote...

So here is the thing. When you meet Isabela, she says when she worked with Castillon she discovered that he was smuggling slaves, and she decided to free them because even as an pirate she had her limits.

And you believe her why?

Dude. It was to different events. The slave killing event happened before the slave freeing event.

Sylvius is probably referring to Isabela saying that she has limits.

But she does. She did later free slaves. The comic just show why she has those limits.

[Face of Evil]

My feeling is that, yes, Isabela did a terrible thing. In fact, she did probably lots of terrible things as a pirate. But she tried to make up for it, and she shows the capacity for redemption. That is reason enough to support her in turn, though it also gives me the opportunity to take down a far greater villain (namely, Castillon).

Modifié par Face of Evil, 16 septembre 2013 - 10:44 .

[In Exile]

Wulfram wrote...

Would Castillon's lot know about this incident?  Because you'd think they'd throw it in her face if they did.

edit:  @Sylvius It's confirmed by Hayder.  And probably Castillon too.

What was confirmed was that Isabella freed the slaves. Her reasons aren't confirmed, and really couldn't be. 

[Sylvius the Mad]

In Exile wrote...

What was confirmed was that Isabella freed the slaves. Her reasons aren't confirmed, and really couldn't be.

She's charismatic, and of questionable moral fibre.  Lying would suit her.

[In Exile]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...
She's charismatic, and of questionable moral fibre.  Lying would suit her.

Not to mention that, speaking from our perspective as players, we know she does precisely this when she needs your help with the Tome of Koslun. 

I freed them because I have standards is quite a lot better than I freed them on a whim. 

For all we know she met one slave she somewhat related to and it all went from there. 

[leaguer of one]

In Exile wrote...

Sylvius the Mad wrote...
She's charismatic, and of questionable moral fibre.  Lying would suit her.

Not to mention that, speaking from our perspective as players, we know she does precisely this when she needs your help with the Tome of Koslun. 

I freed them because I have standards is quite a lot better than I freed them on a whim. 

For all we know she met one slave she somewhat related to and it all went from there. 

But the story about how she helped kill slaves to save her self and her feeling bad of it connects to why she freed slaves later on.

[Bleachrude]

This discussion raises another point...

Gamers complain that games talk down to them and that games assume people are idiots, but we clearly here have people that think the game lied to them yet others (myself included) think everything revealed was more than hinted at by the game itself...

So what is a developer to do?

[crimzontearz]

Bleachrude wrote...

This discussion raises another point...

Gamers complain that games talk down to them and that games assume people are idiots, but we clearly here have people that think the game lied to them yet others (myself included) think everything revealed was more than hinted at by the game itself...

So what is a developer to do?

if so many people are confused about it then maybe the game could have been clearer?

[Jedi Master of Orion]

I could go on about how I don't think not saving civilians from other peoples' attacks is the quite same as slaughtering innocents yourself, or how having regrets doesn't directly imply being a mass murderer but neither are really the heart of the issue.

Captain Jack Sparrow is a good example of the "sort of heroic pirate" trope but it's not a new concept, so the idea that Isabella might not be a monster while still being a pirate is not that unreasonable.

My real issue is this: the comic reveals new information about her that paints the experience of knowing her in the game in a different and more uncomfortable light. One which wasn't implied in the Dragon Age 2 itself.

Doesn't the very reason she didn't tell Hawke or anyone else about it mean that it does paint her character in a very different much more negative light than the game does?

If someone tells you they have limits, then doesn't that imply there is a line they'd never cross? I don't think the first assumption when you hear that, is that the reason is they must have done it before.

If some character says they'd never go as far as to kill someone, then hearing that the reason they don't is they killed someone make them seem very different than you otherwise thought.

What if we later discovered Allistair was not Maric's bastard after all or Shale was a man? Or if Finn was a secret sadistic blood mage.

Modifié par Jedi Master of Orion, 17 septembre 2013 - 12:11 .

[leaguer of one]

crimzontearz wrote...

Bleachrude wrote...

This discussion raises another point...

Gamers complain that games talk down to them and that games assume people are idiots, but we clearly here have people that think the game lied to them yet others (myself included) think everything revealed was more than hinted at by the game itself...

So what is a developer to do?

if so many people are confused about it then maybe the game could have been clearer?

How much clear can it be? She left us at the worst time to save herself but came back because of her Conscience.

Then there's lines like this...
Merrill[/b]: (Sighs) Why do you even like me? I must seem so dull.
Isabela[/b]: What brought this on?
Merrill[/b]: Your life has been... so exciting. The adventures, the duels, the passionate love affairs.
Merrill[/b]: Compared to that, my life is a stale, dry biscuit. (Sighs) I wish I had your life.
Isabela[/b]: No. You don't want my life.
Merrill[/b]: Why?
Isabela[/b]: Because you have a good heart, and you deserve better.

Modifié par leaguer of one, 17 septembre 2013 - 12:21 .

[leaguer of one]

Jedi Master of Orion wrote...



Doesn't the very reason she didn't tell Hawke or anyone else about it mean that it does paint her character in a very different much more negative light than the game does?

If someone tells you they have limits, then doesn't that imply there is a line they'd never cross? I don't think the first assumption when you hear that, is that the reason is they must have done it before.

If some character says they'd never go as far as to kill someone, then hearing that the reason they don't is they killed someone make them seem very different than you otherwise thought.

What if we later discovered Allistair was not Maric's bastard after all or Shale was a man? Or if Finn was a secret sadistic blood mage.

It's not that case at all. The comic shows why Isabela has that limit. This changes nothing about her charactater. She has always been show as a character with someregrets of her past. Her killing slaves in the past changes nothing about her now. It just explains why she no longer wants to be part of the slaver bisness.

[Jedi Master of Orion]

leaguer of one wrote...

crimzontearz wrote...

Bleachrude wrote...

This discussion raises another point...

Gamers complain that games talk down to them and that games assume people are idiots, but we clearly here have people that think the game lied to them yet others (myself included) think everything revealed was more than hinted at by the game itself...

So what is a developer to do?

if so many people are confused about it then maybe the game could have been clearer?

How much clear can it be? She left us at the worst time to save herself but came back because of her Conscience.

Then there's lines like this...
Merrill[/b]: (Sighs) Why do you even like me? I must seem so dull.
Isabela[/b]: What brought this on?
Merrill[/b]: Your life has been... so exciting. The adventures, the duels, the passionate love affairs.
Merrill[/b]: Compared to that, my life is a stale, dry biscuit. (Sighs) I wish I had your life.
Isabela[/b]: No. You don't want my life.
Merrill[/b]: Why?
Isabela[/b]: Because you have a good heart, and you deserve better.

All this says is that she has regrets. They could be any number of things. Nothing about this implies specifically that she was decieving Hawke and everyone else about her past.

If they wanted to work it into the game clearly they should have mentioned it when Fenris asked her why she freeed those slaves or when Hawke tried to tell her she was afraid of being anything but selfish. As it stands it just shows that she crossed a line she said she didn't cross and then hid it from her closest friends.

Yes Isabella's dishonest, but she doesn't always stay that way. And even if a character is dishonest, I don't think it's fair for a game to be as well since we never find out about it.

Modifié par Jedi Master of Orion, 17 septembre 2013 - 01:07 .

[crimzontearz]

leaguer of one wrote...

crimzontearz wrote...

Bleachrude wrote...

This discussion raises another point...

Gamers complain that games talk down to them and that games assume people are idiots, but we clearly here have people that think the game lied to them yet others (myself included) think everything revealed was more than hinted at by the game itself...

So what is a developer to do?

if so many people are confused about it then maybe the game could have been clearer?

How much clear can it be? She left us at the worst time to save herself but came back because of her Conscience.

Then there's lines like this...
Merrill[/b]: (Sighs) Why do you even like me? I must seem so dull.
Isabela[/b]: What brought this on?
Merrill[/b]: Your life has been... so exciting. The adventures, the duels, the passionate love affairs.
Merrill[/b]: Compared to that, my life is a stale, dry biscuit. (Sighs) I wish I had your life.
Isabela[/b]: No. You don't want my life.
Merrill[/b]: Why?
Isabela[/b]: Because you have a good heart, and you deserve better.

what orion said

[d4eaming]

I find the fact she threw slaves to drown (or at the very least, allowed it to happen on her watch) quite disturbing. It's also kind of disturbing how many people try to make excuses for it, too If she was a real person, would people be clamoring so hard to justify her letting dozens or hundreds of people die? I always found her a little "icky" but couldn't put my finger on it. Everyone else I could identify with in some way, but nothing about Isabela resonates with me. I've tried so many times to get her through Act 2 so she'd come back during the battle with the Arishok, and I've only managed it once. But there was just something about her niggling at the back of my mind.

I wouldn't say this information is shocking or necessarily out of character for her, but it does really sour her further for me, and makes it even more difficult for me to try keeping her through to the end of the game. It also makes her relationship with unromanced Fenris even more... gross to me, in a way. If he knew she murdered a bunch of slaves before, would he still start seeing her?

I won't assume the devs were being deliberately obfuscatory about her past in DA2, but it definitely puts her in a different light for me that stains my perception of her. I won't lie, it means I end up metagaming with her character once it's time to recruit her, and I never really enjoy dealing with her in game.

Modifié par d4eaming, 17 septembre 2013 - 01:22 .

[Bleachrude]

That still raises the question.

In DA2, she CLEARLY has regrets about something...what exactly could that be for a character that didn't have any problems abouty what she did with the Tome OR a character who had no regrets about freeing the slaves in her 2nd encounter...

So what would make such a character have regrets?

[crimzontearz]

Bleachrude wrote...

That still raises the question.

In DA2, she CLEARLY has regrets about something...what exactly could that be for a character that didn't have any problems abouty what she did with the Tome OR a character who had no regrets about freeing the slaves in her 2nd encounter...

So what would make such a character have regrets?

if the devs wanted us to know should they not have had that info in the main game as opposed to the expanded material?

[leaguer of one]

Jedi Master of Orion wrote...

leaguer of one wrote...

crimzontearz wrote...

Bleachrude wrote...

This discussion raises another point...

Gamers complain that games talk down to them and that games assume people are idiots, but we clearly here have people that think the game lied to them yet others (myself included) think everything revealed was more than hinted at by the game itself...

So what is a developer to do?

if so many people are confused about it then maybe the game could have been clearer?

How much clear can it be? She left us at the worst time to save herself but came back because of her Conscience.

Then there's lines like this...
Merrill[/b]: (Sighs) Why do you even like me? I must seem so dull.
Isabela[/b]: What brought this on?
Merrill[/b]: Your life has been... so exciting. The adventures, the duels, the passionate love affairs.
Merrill[/b]: Compared to that, my life is a stale, dry biscuit. (Sighs) I wish I had your life.
Isabela[/b]: No. You don't want my life.
Merrill[/b]: Why?
Isabela[/b]: Because you have a good heart, and you deserve better.

All this says is that she has regrets. They could be any number of things. Nothing about this implies specifically that she was decieving Hawke and everyone else about her past.

If they wanted to work it into the game clearly they should have mentioned it when Fenris asked her why she freeed those slaves or when Hawke tried to tell her she was afraid of being anything but selfish. As it stands it just shows that she crossed a line she said she didn't cross and then hid it from her closest friends.

Yes Isabella's dishonest, but she doesn't always stay that way. And even if a character is dishonest, I don't think it's fair for a game to be as well since we never find out about it.

Sure it can be any number of things...And it is. But the point is not what it was, it' s just that she regrets it. Finding out what it is does not change that fact. It could of been anything and the results of her character would stay the same. Because of that it's not an inconsistancy. Add for her to say the turth about anything that she regrets or bothers her she has to be put into a corner, examle: how she told you about the book. With the same case with the slave in the comic she was also forced into a corner to talk about it.
Isabela is a type of character that does not like to talk about thing she does not like, the faults of her past is one of them.
Her bringing up the event where she was forced to kill slave only happened because she was forced into a corner.

[leaguer of one]

crimzontearz wrote...

Bleachrude wrote...

That still raises the question.

In DA2, she CLEARLY has regrets about something...what exactly could that be for a character that didn't have any problems abouty what she did with the Tome OR a character who had no regrets about freeing the slaves in her 2nd encounter...

So what would make such a character have regrets?

if the devs wanted us to know should they not have had that info in the main game as opposed to the expanded material?

You do understand that the character don't have to tell us everything about themselves in game or out.
Charcter growth should not count in game only.

Modifié par leaguer of one, 17 septembre 2013 - 01:43 .

[crimzontearz]

leaguer of one wrote...

crimzontearz wrote...

Bleachrude wrote...

That still raises the question.

In DA2, she CLEARLY has regrets about something...what exactly could that be for a character that didn't have any problems abouty what she did with the Tome OR a character who had no regrets about freeing the slaves in her 2nd encounter...

So what would make such a character have regrets?

if the devs wanted us to know should they not have had that info in the main game as opposed to the expanded material?

You do understand that the character don't have to tell us everything about themselves in game or out.
Charcter growth should not count in game only.

if I lack a piece of info about her growth that can change my entire perspective on the character/contradicts what she directly states in the game because it is locked away in the extended material I call that bad story telling.

[leaguer of one]

crimzontearz wrote...

leaguer of one wrote...

crimzontearz wrote...

Bleachrude wrote...

That still raises the question.

In DA2, she CLEARLY has regrets about something...what exactly could that be for a character that didn't have any problems abouty what she did with the Tome OR a character who had no regrets about freeing the slaves in her 2nd encounter...

So what would make such a character have regrets?

if the devs wanted us to know should they not have had that info in the main game as opposed to the expanded material?

You do understand that the character don't have to tell us everything about themselves in game or out.
Charcter growth should not count in game only.

if I lack a piece of info about her growth that can change my entire perspective on the character/contradicts what she directly states in the game because it is locked away in the extended material I call that bad story telling.

But it does not change anything about her character. Her character is the same, it just gives a reason why she acts the way she does.

[Jedi Master of Orion]

Yes it does. It's a reason that paints her character in a different light because it says she crossed a line that the game otherwise implied she wouldn't cross. Yes it explains why she freed the ship full of slaves, but does so in a way makes the dynamic different from what her comments initally implied.

Before it was "Isabella sees a terrible thing and puts a stop to it because it crosses a moral line even for her."

Now it's "Isabella sees a terrible thing she'd been doing all along and stops because she can't stand it anymore."

Modifié par Jedi Master of Orion, 17 septembre 2013 - 02:18 .