176 réponses à ce sujet

[Kalas Magnus]

this is an rpg

the protagonist is godlike by the end. '

survival horror is the type of game you would like

[Seival]

PinkShoes wrote...

Why would you get anything for running away?

For example: by fighting the invincible boss you distracted it from killing some NPC. That NPC managed to escape too, but he used different route for his escape. Later in the game you meet that NPC, and he rewards you for saving his life.

[mupp3tz]

Seival wrote...

PinkShoes wrote...

Why would you get anything for running away?

For example: by fighting the invincible boss you distracted it from killing some NPC. That NPC managed to escape too, but he used different route for his escape. Later in the game you meet that NPC, and he rewards you for saving his life.

Or it could also be a boss that only you and your party stumble across and 'running away' could consist of sealing him/her/it so that they can't wreak havok elsewhere. Of course that goes with the mindset that defeating = killing.

[BlueMagitek]

Do you mean like a "I challenged this boss way too early and it is impossible within game limitations for me to win"?  Because I'm totally fine with those.  Player's fault for running in early.

A boss that is meant to be unbeatable but can still be defeated (like Ser Cauthain) is also fine, and a number of other series do this (like the Tales series) to impress how powerful that character is.

Bosses that you can only run away from would be somewhat difficult to do in this series because you're controlling multiple people in a pseudo-turnbase setting. 

Tough decision.

[TheKomandorShepard]

i prefer that was option i don't want another hawke if you are too weak you can't defeat that if not you can i kicked Cauthrien ass but i felt bad for killing her and reload then i surrender.

[Eveangaline]

Can't they just make fights that are about strategy and having to actually plan and be smart to win?

[Elhanan]

I have seen cases where the enemy has retreated to appear later, and this was entertaining. But I do not know if I want an invincible foe; not my fave experience.

Once while playing one of the Gold Box D&D games, I hit a glitch in one of the cities that replaced every enemy guard with a Balor wielding a Vorpal Blade. I actually decided to try and play that out for the small amt of time it took to squash me like a bug.

What I could get behind is that a Dragon or other Boss (hate that term, but I digress) has a standard of difficulty already preset, and it may be too hard to destroy, so retreat is a solid choice. This is what DAI has chosen to implement.

In such a case, perhaps the damage taken, resources lost, skills used, etc can be used to calculate bonus pts for engaging it at all; reflecting the actual experience of encountering it presents. The intro to Skyrim is such an example, as I often am able to gain a few pts in Stealth before escaping the city.

[Star fury]

Eveangaline wrote...

Can't they just make fights that are about strategy and having to actually plan and be smart to win?

You ask too much tbf, it's much easier just to buff hit-points and damage of bosses to obscene amounts like devs did with Harvester in Amgarrak and High Dragon in DA2. 

[Elhanan]

Star fury wrote...

You ask too much tbf, it's much easier just to buff hit-points and damage of bosses to obscene amounts like devs did with Harvester in Amgarrak and High Dragon in DA2. 

While I also hold a less than favored view of the Harvester, I quite enjoy the tactical encounter with the High Dragon, as well as the similar encounter with the Arch-demon. To me, these are not the same things.

Perhaps the encounter against the Arishok best illustrates this point; rather dull and tedious when done one-on-one, but is far more enjoyable as a group encounter with added troops on both sides. IMO, of course.

[Grog Muffins]

Seival wrote...

Wulfram wrote...

Well, one question I'd ask is how you make escaping fun in a party based CRPG context. Because it if just amounts to making all your character run away that's just going to be boring.

For example:
 - First you have to actually fight the boss, damage him a little.
 - The fight has to be long and hard.
 - At some point barely damaged boss recovers all health and becomes even more dangerous.
 - A little later cut-scene starts where protagonist tells/shows that he and his group can't survive this, and they have to flee.
 - Finally we have a little part of gameplay where boss pursuits the fleeing group (maybe even kill someone, but not the protagonist). So, eventually the best outcome of this encounter is to escape the boss and lose no one in the process. The worst outcome - your party dies, game over.

Those mechanics work in an action game, see Prince of Persia: Warrior Within where you can't engage Dahaka until the very end because he'll just murder you the moment he catches you. In an RPG that relies more on thinking ahead rather than acting in the moment, not to mention having a party along instead of being alone and not having to worry about anyone other than yourself, these mechanics don't really fit all that well imo.

[Taura-Tierno]

It's done in lots of games already. Overall, I think it adds to the variety. Some battles you win, some battles you don't. Some aren't meant to be won at all.

[9TailsFox]

Unbeatable boss for sake of unbeatable: NO
Unbitable boss who is unbittable because she is freaking strong and have like 20 solders, And Warden have 3 friends and dame Anora just stands do nothing and says i kidnapped her then i actually i just saved her. And if defeated game not ends game over screen, and if not defeated, well you not defeated and just walk away:YES PLEASE

[PlasmaCheese]

I was wondering if anyone would bring up the Dahaka. Ahhhh, some of my most exciting &scary gaming experiences were running from that damn thing..

[MstrJedi Kyle]

Personally I think plot armor is always a bad idea.

[wright1978]

I have to say that personally I dislike fights designed where the protaganist is forced to loose. Completely unsatisfying/rewarding waste of time.

[crimzontearz]

Yeah, no thanks.

Seriously, just no.

Again for the millionth time I do not play games to be reminded of how things work in real life or to be "put down"

There are also enough enemies out there in many titles who either "win by default" or you always have to run from (especially in survival horrors)

[Star fury]

LindsayLohan wrote...

^^.....That sig.....

It's brilliant, isn't it?

[Milan92]

No thank you.

[Lotion Soronarr]

If the designer/writer sez you can't win, then you cna't win. Period.

I know someone people adore a power fantasy and feel like they are being c***blocked if they can't kill anything in their path (including gods and gigantic dragons and monsters) with pure,. direct physical force.

Ya know..because that 500-tonn dragon is going to be hurting soooOOOoooo much from your piddy arrows...

I'm all for b***smacking the player and putting him in his place ocasionaly. De-power the hero. Break him. Humiliate him.
Destroy and grind player arrogance to dust.

[crimzontearz]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

If the designer/writer sez you can't win, then you cna't win. Period.

I know someone people adore a power fantasy and feel like they are being c***blocked if they can't kill anything in their path (including gods and gigantic dragons and monsters) with pure,. direct physical force.

Ya know..because that 500-tonn dragon is going to be hurting soooOOOoooo much from your piddy arrows...

I'm all for b***smacking the player and putting him in his place ocasionaly. De-power the hero. Break him. Humiliate him.
Destroy and grind player arrogance to dust.

Yes totally....what he said


 
After all there was some people advocating Geralt getting literally raped and crucified in TW3 because, you know, it puts things into perspective.

Yeah no thanks. Had enough of that in ME3

[mikeymoonshine]

Why not go a step farther and have your character crushed by an ogre five minutes in, that could just be the end of the game. XD

This would dispel all those awful unrealistic power fantasies.

[crimzontearz]

mikeymoonshine wrote...

Why not go a step farther and have your character crushed by an ogre five minutes in, that could just be the end of the game. XD

This would dispel all those awful unrealistic power fantasies.

don't forget...the PC must also be made watch all those ge cares for being violated and murdered because, you know, this is a dark fantasy game -headdesk-

[DarthLaxian]

Seival wrote...

agonis wrote...

Why engage a fight, if you are going to flee it? It seems rather pointless. If they keep their promise DA:I will have some enemies that are too strong at the beginning. With some time and preparation you may succeed in killing them.

But an enemy just lurking around the corner for the entire game and you cannot do anything about except waiting for it to die a natural death?

Initially you had a feeling that you can kill the enemy. In standard games you know the enemy will eventually die. And that's boring... But when you came to kill a boss then barely escaped with your life, and eventually didn't manage to kill the boss through the entire game because it was designed to be unstoppable - things become much more interesting.

and that's cool (being one of the best in all the land with a fantastic team is what's so fun about DA like games IMHO)

having to flee just because the game says so, that is boring (hell, give me Ser Cauthrien like fights (really hard - with a really usefull reward for winning) were you can lose without dying (hell, i would love it that "death" (going down) isn't always the end!)) that are hard, but winnable (just running/fleeing/dying because the game says so, that's boring and predictable IMHO (hell, i didn't know Cauthrien was winnable my first few times meeting her - i only found out, after i tossed caution into the find and fought her just to fight her)

greetings LAX
ps: sorry, but un-killable, that's worse then what we are going to get...that is predictable!

Modifié par DarthLaxian, 16 septembre 2013 - 06:37 .

[Plaintiff]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

If the designer/writer sez you can't win, then you cna't win. Period.

I know someone people adore a power fantasy and feel like they are being c***blocked if they can't kill anything in their path (including gods and gigantic dragons and monsters) with pure,. direct physical force.

Ya know..because that 500-tonn dragon is going to be hurting soooOOOoooo much from your piddy arrows...

I'm all for b***smacking the player and putting him in his place ocasionaly. De-power the hero. Break him. Humiliate him.
Destroy and grind player arrogance to dust.

Yes, it's so arrogant that someone would pick up a game about killing dragons and think that they might actually get to do what the game advertises.

Designing scenarios where fighting doesn't work won't fix the imaginary problem of 'player arrogance' you've concocted in your head. If the solution to an encounter is to run away, then running away means you've won. It's not a 'loss', if it's what you were supposed to do all along.

People will just say 'Oh, I guess that's how you contnue the story', and get on with their lives. And if the players are truly arrogant, they'll just brag about how long they're able to survive, or how quickly they were able to escape.

Modifié par Plaintiff, 16 septembre 2013 - 01:25 .